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Re: Did Christ died the 'second death' for us...
[Re: Rick H]
#101211
07/30/08 10:45 PM
07/30/08 10:45 PM
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Active Member 2012
Very Dedicated Member
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,826
E. Oregon, USA
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Yes, Rick, had Christ actually died the 2nd death due Satan, etc., in the way it is defined in Revelation, he would not have been resurrected and would not be alive today.....How would mortal death for Jesus have any salvivic effect...? - since there is a Biblical "resurrection" from mortal death - hence we don't need salvation from the grave's mortal death, but from eternal death!
Christ didn't need to experience eternal death to save us from the same? Which death Christ needed to die is indeed a technical point of critical importance, and can be sorted out with some thought and discussion.
Jesus had to meet the demands of divine justice, ie. perfect righteousness toward the law but also "the soul that sins, it shall die": the only dispute over the former is whether Christ built perfect righteousness in sinful human form or sinless/with sinful form; the dispute over "shall die" for the Saviour is at least first or second death - forgetting Islam's general objections, as well as some other issues. Jesus was required to suffer the just death due sinners so as to redeem them from it, not so, I would say.
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Re: Did Christ died the 'second death' for us...
[Re: Rick H]
#101214
07/31/08 12:23 AM
07/31/08 12:23 AM
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SDA
Active Member 2023
5500+ Member
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,583
California, USA
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Christ experienced death as we all will have to unless we live to the end, that of the grave. ... I have not seen anything said or posted that leads me to change that..... Did you see this one? ...the penalty of man's transgression was borne by a divine Substitute. {ST, December 30, 1889 par. 2} What is the penalty for man's transgression? Is it the 1st death or 2nd death or something else?
By God's grace,
Arnold
There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
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Re: Did Christ died the 'second death' for us...
[Re: Tammy Roesch]
#101215
07/31/08 12:30 AM
07/31/08 12:30 AM
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SDA
Active Member 2023
5500+ Member
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,583
California, USA
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Ellen White references "the death of the cross" 101 times in the Spirit of Prophecy. Not ONCE does she connect it in any of those 101 times to the 2nd Death. Here's a reference to Christ's substitution: Guiltless, He bore the punishment of the guilty. {AG 172.3} What do you believe is the "punishment of the guilty" that Christ bore?
By God's grace,
Arnold
There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
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Re: Did Christ died the 'second death' for us...
[Re: asygo]
#101217
07/31/08 03:02 AM
07/31/08 03:02 AM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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If any1 has Ty Gibson's books, in particular "See With New Eyes" and "Shades of Grace," I agree w/ his thoughts, and I think he expresses himself very well.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Did Christ died the 'second death' for us...
[Re: Tom]
#101218
07/31/08 03:04 AM
07/31/08 03:04 AM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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In the SOP, I think the following is particularly clear: This is not an act of arbitrary power on the part of God. The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown. God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life. He is "alienated from the life of God." Christ says, "All they that hate Me love death." Eph. 4:18; Prov. 8:36. God gives them existence for a time that they may develop their character and reveal their principles. This accomplished, they receive the results of their own choice. By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them.
At the beginning of the great controversy, the angels did not understand this. Had Satan and his host then been left to reap the full result of their sin, they would have perished; but it would not have been apparent to heavenly beings that this was the inevitable result of sin. A doubt of God's goodness would have remained in their minds as evil seed, to produce its deadly fruit of sin and woe. (DA 764)
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Did Christ died the 'second death' for us...
[Re: asygo]
#101220
07/31/08 05:45 AM
07/31/08 05:45 AM
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Ellen White references "the death of the cross" 101 times in the Spirit of Prophecy. Not ONCE does she connect it in any of those 101 times to the 2nd Death. Here's a reference to Christ's substitution: Guiltless, He bore the punishment of the guilty. {AG 172.3} What do you believe is the "punishment of the guilty" that Christ bore? Hi asygo, If Christ bore the punishment of the guilty did God kill Him or did sinners kill Him? scott
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Re: Did Christ died the 'second death' for us...
[Re: scott]
#101221
07/31/08 06:37 AM
07/31/08 06:37 AM
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SDA
Active Member 2023
5500+ Member
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,583
California, USA
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If Christ bore the punishment of the guilty did God kill Him or did sinners kill Him? None of the above. He died of a broken heart.
By God's grace,
Arnold
There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
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Re: Did Christ died the 'second death' for us...
[Re: asygo]
#101223
07/31/08 09:08 AM
07/31/08 09:08 AM
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Christ experienced death as we all will have to unless we live to the end, that of the grave. ... I have not seen anything said or posted that leads me to change that..... Did you see this one? ...the penalty of man's transgression was borne by a divine Substitute. {ST, December 30, 1889 par. 2} What is the penalty for man's transgression? Is it the 1st death or 2nd death or something else? The penalty for man's transgression is death. There was no 1st or 2nd Death before Adam & Eve sinned. When they sinned, immediately, things changed, in nature as well as in man. I haven't thought what I'm going to say out real far, so, I'm not sure about it...but we are told that Jesus was the "first fruit" of the righteous, right? What death do the righteous suffer? Only the 1st, as only the wicked will suffer the 2nd Death. So, if He was the First Fruit of the righteous, and the death the righteous suffer is the 1st Death, then it seems clear that is the death that He suffered as well. What Jesus suffered was far worse than the 2nd Death, I'm not minimizing his suffering by believing He died the 1st Death. He died with the weight of the sins of the world on His shoulders, NO ONE else ever did that.
Christ is waiting with longing desire for the manifestation of Himself in His church. When the character of Christ shall be perfectly reproduced in His people, then He will come to claim them as His own. {COL 69}
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Re: Did Christ died the 'second death' for us...
[Re: asygo]
#101224
07/31/08 12:32 PM
07/31/08 12:32 PM
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If Christ bore the punishment of the guilty did God kill Him or did sinners kill Him? None of the above. He died of a broken heart. Amen, I agree 100%! So if Christ bore the punishment for our sin is the punishment for sin a broken heart as a result of being separated from God? scott
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Re: Did Christ died the 'second death' for us...
[Re: Tammy Roesch]
#101225
07/31/08 01:08 PM
07/31/08 01:08 PM
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By Tammy: I haven't thought what I'm going to say out real far, so, I'm not sure about it...but we are told that Jesus was the "first fruit" of the righteous, right? What death do the righteous suffer? Only the 1st, as only the wicked will suffer the 2nd Death. So, if He was the First Fruit of the righteous, and the death the righteous suffer is the 1st Death, then it seems clear that is the death that He suffered as well. Hi Tammy, I like this very well. I think that the idea that Christ died the second death comes from the Papal/Calvinistic view of the atonement. It is called penal substitution where God’s insulted integrity demands (God’s law demands) Jesus suffer enough to include the punishment due to the vilest sinner. According to this view Jesus must suffer physical pain equal or greater than what the worst repentant sinner deserves. Otherwise the justice of God would be compromised. So Christ suffers the collective debt for all those who are saved so that they can be acquitted and given a free ticket to heaven. Christ becomes the proverbial “whipping boy” for our sins. What you said makes much more sense to me. Any way that Christ died would resemble both the first and second death because death is death. Both the first and second death result in the physical shutdown of bodily functions. For one group this shut down is only temporary, but to the other it is permanent. The cause of death seems to be what is more important than the death itself. What do you think is the cause of the 2nd death? scott
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