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Re: What was nailed to the cross in Col 2:14? [Re: Tom] #101501
08/11/08 07:53 PM
08/11/08 07:53 PM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
An unconverted mind cannot be called a handwritten document, and cannot be called a "law of commandemnts contained in ordinances". This does not make any sense.

Besides, Deut. 31:24-26 says:

"And it came to pass, when Moses had made an end of writing the words of this law in a book until they were finished, that Moses commanded the Levites, who bore the ark of the covenant of the LORD, saying, "Take this Book of the Law and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee."

Someone also said that this law of sacrifices was against them because its very existence was a witness that they had broken the Ten Commandments.

"I referred them to ancient Israel. God gave them His law; but they would not obey it. He then gave them ceremonies and ordinances, that in the performance of these God might be kept in remembrance. They were so prone to forget Him and His claims upon them, that it was necessary to keep their minds stirred up to realize their obligations to obey and honor their Creator. Had they been obedient, and loved to keep God's commandments, the multitude of ceremonies and ordinances would not have been required." {LS 200.2}

Last edited by Rosangela; 08/11/08 08:31 PM. Reason: clarification
Re: What was nailed to the cross in Col 2:14? [Re: Rosangela] #101503
08/11/08 09:01 PM
08/11/08 09:01 PM
Tom  Offline
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Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
The problem was that the 10 Commandments were being broken. Destroying a witness that this was the case wouldn't do any good. The mind that chooses to break the commandments is the problem. The mind must be converted.

What was abolished was the enmity:

 Quote:
14For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

15Having abolished in his flesh the enmity ...


 Quote:
6For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

7Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

8So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. (Rom. 8)


The carnal mind is abolished at the cross when one believes in Christ. This is how peace is made. Destroying the ceremonial law wouldn't help at all to make peace. Destroying a witness wouldn't help at all, because the carnal mind would just go on in rebellion against God, because it cannot be subject to the law of God.

In order to fix the problem, man must be united to God. This can only happen through Christ. In Christ the enmity is abolished, and there can be peace, peace between God and man, and peace among men.

 Quote:
Had they been obedient, and loved to keep God's commandments, the multitude of ceremonies and ordinances would not have been required."


Getting rid of them certainly wouldn't help.

It seems weird to me to think that God initiates covenants that can only enslave, gives us things which are against us, enemies to us, and that abolishing that which God Himself has initiated or given us would somehow help things.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: What was nailed to the cross in Col 2:14? [Re: Tom] #101506
08/11/08 10:16 PM
08/11/08 10:16 PM
Rosangela  Offline
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Tom,

We must consider the meaning of the words. In which way can an unconverted mind be called a handwritten document? You could even argue that an unconverted mind could be called the "law of sin," but how can someone argue that an unconverted mind is a "law of commandments contained in ordinances"?

EGW uses expressions such as "types and ordinances," "ceremonial ordinances," "ceremonies and ordinances," "sacrifices and ordinances," "ceremonial and ritualistic ordinances," "ordinances of the Mosaic law," "Jewish ordinances," etc. So the word "ordinances" is frequently associated to the ceremonial law.

Waggoner says, "The ceremonial law was simply the ordinances of the gospel." http://dedication.www3.50megs.com/1888/waggonerbutler_twolaws3.html
He has two articles, "Abolishing the Enmity" (ST, 15 Apr. 1886, pp. 231-32) and "The Handwriting of Ordinances" (ST, 22 Apr. 1886, pp. 247-48), in which he must make his opinion about this subject clear, but I can't get them where I live. Perhaps you can.

Anyway, you should consider that when the Biblical writers speak about the old covenant or about the ceremonial law, they speak of them as they had been perverted by the Jews. That's one of the reasons, perhaps the main one, why the old covenant is said to bear children to slavery and that the ceremonial law is said to be against us.

Re: What was nailed to the cross in Col 2:14? [Re: Rosangela] #101508
08/12/08 03:05 AM
08/12/08 03:05 AM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
 Quote:
We must consider the meaning of the words. In which way can an unconverted mind be called a handwritten document? You could even argue that an unconverted mind could be called the "law of sin," but how can someone argue that an unconverted mind is a "law of commandments contained in ordinances"?


If we must consider the meaning of words, how about the words "enmity" and "peace"? In what way can the ceremonial law be called "enmity"? How would abolishing it establish peace?

The "law contained in ordinances is a parenthetical comment. Paul has already explained, in Romans 8:7, what he believes the enmity to be.

 Quote:
6For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

7Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

8So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.


The enmity is the carnal mind, not the ceremonial law.

I've asked how the ceremonial law was against us, and you suggested that it was a "witness." Well destroying a witness that tells the truth doesn't help anything. The truth still remains! You can kill the "witness" that says we are a law-breaker, but the fact still remains that we are still a law-breaker! *That's* what needs to be fixed.

 Quote:
EGW uses expressions such as "types and ordinances," "ceremonial ordinances," "ceremonies and ordinances," "sacrifices and ordinances," "ceremonial and ritualistic ordinances," "ordinances of the Mosaic law," "Jewish ordinances," etc. So the word "ordinances" is frequently associated to the ceremonial law.


The ceremonial law was done away with at the cross. Everyone agrees with this. However, what was Paul's argument? I believe that A. T. Jones expressed it correctly:

 Quote:
Ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh to God by the blood of Christ. For he who is our peace, who hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us — that was between us — having abolished in his flesh the enmity. Thank the Lord. He hath " abolished the enmity" and we can be separated from the world.

" Hath broken down the middle wall of partition between "—whom? Between men and God, surely. How did he do it ? How did he break down the middle wall of partition between us and God?—By " abolishing the enmity." Good.

True, that enmity had worked a division and a separation between men on the earth, between circumcision and uncircumcision; between circumcision according to the flesh, and uncircumcision according to the flesh. It had manifested itself in their divisions, in building up another wall between Jews and entiles; that is true, but if the Jews had been joined to God, and had not been separated from him, would they have ever built up a wall between them and anybody else ? — No, certainly not, but in their separation from God; in their fleshly minds; in the enmity that was in their minds, and the blindness through unbelief, which put the veil upon their heart — all this separated them from God. And thm because of the laws and ceremonies which God had given them, they gave themselves credit for being the ' Lord's and for being so much better than other' people, that they built up a great separating wall and partition between themselves and other people. But where lay the root of the whole thing, as between them and other people even ? — It lay in the enmity And in Christ, God and man met so that they can be one.

All men were separated from God, and in their separation from God, they were separated from one another. True, Christ wants to bring all to one another; he was ushered into the world with " Peace on earth; good will to men." That is his object. But does he spend his time in trying to get these reconciled to one another, and in trying to destroy all these separations between men, and to get them to say, " Oh, well, let all bygones be bygones; now we will bury the hatchet; now we will start out and turn over a new leaf, and we will live better from this time on "

Christ might have done that. If lie had taken that course, there are thousands of people whom he could have persuaded to do that; thousands whom he could persuade to say, " Well, it is too bad that we acted that way toward one another ; it is not right,
and I am sorry for it; and now let us just all leave that behind, and turn over a new leaf, and go on and do better." He could have got people to agree to that. But could they have stuck to it f—No. For the wicked thing is there still that made ike division. What caused the division?—The enmity, their sepa-
ration from God caused the separation from-one an- other. Then what in the world would have been the use of the Lord himself trying to get men to agree to put away their differences, without going to ' the root of the matter and getting rid of the enmity that caused the separation ? Their separation from God had forced a separation among themselves. And the only way to destroy their separation from one another, was of necessity to destroy their separation from God. And this he did by abolishing the enmity. And we ministers can get a lesson from this, when churches call us to try to settle difficulties. We have nothing at all to do with settling difficulties between men as such. We are to get the difficulty between God and man settled; and when that is done, all other separations will be ended.

It is true, the Jews in their separation from God had built up extra separations between themselves and the Gentiles. It is true that Christ wanted to put all those separations out of the way, and he did do that. .But the only way that he did it, and the only way that he could do it, was to destroy the thing that separated, between them and God. All the separations between them and the Gentiles would be gone, when the separation, the enmity, between them and God was gone.

Enmity that was in them that separated them first from God. And being separated from him, the certain consequence was

" For he is our peace, who hath made both one.'Made both who one? — God and men, certainly. " And hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; having abolished in his flesh the enmity,, . . . for to make in himself of twain [of two] one new man, so making peace." Let us look that over again. " Having abolished in his flesh the enmity." Now omitting the next clause (we are not studying that in this lesson) what did he abolish that enmity for ? What did he break down that middle wall of partition for? Why? "For to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace." Does Christ make a new man out of a Jew and a Gentile ? — No. Out of a heathen and somebody else? —No. Out of one heathen and another heathen?— No.

God makes one new man out of GOD and A MAN.


 Quote:
Waggoner says, "The ceremonial law was simply the ordinances of the gospel."


This is correct. Was the gospel "against us"?

Unfortunately, I lost my stuff wherein I could find Waggoner articles like you mentioned when I moved. However, generally Waggoner agreed with Jones (I actually don't know of any cases where they disagreed; this isn't to say that none exist, I just don't know of any), who I reproduced here.

 Quote:
Anyway, you should consider that when the Biblical writers speak about the old covenant or about the ceremonial law, they speak of them as they had been perverted by the Jews. That's one of the reasons, perhaps the main one, why the old covenant is said to bear children to slavery and that the ceremonial law is said to be against us.


The essence of the Old Covenant was a promise to make oneself righteous. This was doomed from the beginning to enslave the one making such a promise to slavery. The pity is that people continue making these vain promises, thinking that by so doing they are honoring God. But, as Waggoner points out, God is honored by believing His promises to us (which point, EGW also makes, let alone Paul).


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: What was nailed to the cross in Col 2:14? [Re: Tom] #101515
08/12/08 02:50 PM
08/12/08 02:50 PM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
 Quote:
If we must consider the meaning of words, how about the words "enmity" and "peace"? In what way can the ceremonial law be called "enmity"? How would abolishing it establish peace?

Its perversion brought division and enmity between Jews and gentiles, but the acceptance of the cross and of the love Christ brought to the world, brings peace.

 Quote:
The "law contained in ordinances is a parenthetical comment.

A parenthetical comment about what?

Re: What was nailed to the cross in Col 2:14? [Re: Rosangela] #101518
08/12/08 03:58 PM
08/12/08 03:58 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
 Quote:
Its perversion brought division and enmity between Jews and gentiles, but the acceptance of the cross and of the love Christ brought to the world, brings peace.


Therefore it is the perversion of the ceremonial law (aka, the carnal mind) that is "enmity" and needs to be abolished, not the ceremonial law itself, the abolishment of which would do absolutely nothing to bring about peace, as the ceremonial law was never the problem.

The ceremonial law is a figure of Christ's ministry. Neither Christ's ministry, nor the prefiguring of it was either "enmity," nor "against us."

To answer your other question, a parenthetical comment about the enmity.

 Quote:
6For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

7Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

8So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.(Romans 8)


The enmity is the carnal mind. Why? Because it is not subject to the law. Christ brings about peace by destroying the enmity, thus creating a new "man" (this "man" representing the union bo God and man, or man and man) in Christ.

You said

 Quote:
the acceptance of the cross and of the love Christ brought to the world, brings peace.


Amen to this!

 Quote:
" Hath broken down the middle wall of partition between "—whom? Between men and God, surely. How did he do it ? How did he break down the middle wall of partition between us and God?—By " abolishing the enmity." Good.

True, that enmity had worked a division and a separation between men on the earth, between circumcision and uncircumcision; between circumcision according to the flesh, and uncircumcision according to the flesh. It had manifested itself in their divisions, in building up another wall between Jews and entiles; that is true, but if the Jews had been joined to God, and had not been separated from him, would they have ever built up a wall between them and anybody else ? — No, certainly not, but in their separation from God; in their fleshly minds; in the enmity that was in their minds, and the blindness through unbelief, which put the veil upon their heart — all this separated them from God. And then because of the laws and ceremonies which God had given them, they gave themselves credit for being the ' Lord's and for being so much better than other' people, that they built up a great separating wall and partition between themselves and other people. But where lay the root of the whole thing, as between them and other people even ? — It lay in the enmity And in Christ, God and man met so that they can be one.(emphasis mine)


This just makes so much sense. Your affirmation about the cross is in harmony with this.

It's too bad I don't have access to the Waggoner stuff anymore. You've whet my appetite. I'll see if I can chase that down.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: What was nailed to the cross in Col 2:14? [Re: Tom] #101530
08/13/08 01:23 PM
08/13/08 01:23 PM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
 Quote:
Therefore it is the perversion of the ceremonial law (aka, the carnal mind) that is "enmity" and needs to be abolished, not the ceremonial law itself, the abolishment of which would do absolutely nothing to bring about peace, as the ceremonial law was never the problem.

Well, Ellen White says clearly that the ceremonial law was abolished. Besides, the ceremonial law is a law, and is a law of ordinances, therefore the verse's description of what was abolished matches it perfectly. The carnal mind is not a law and it doesn't contain ordinances. Neither can it be described as a handwritten document.

Yes, please see if you can find the Waggoner stuff.

Re: What was nailed to the cross in Col 2:14? [Re: Rosangela] #101539
08/13/08 03:56 PM
08/13/08 03:56 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
 Quote:
Well, Ellen White says clearly that the ceremonial law was abolished.


Even the Bible teaches this.

 Quote:
Besides, the ceremonial law is a law, and is a law of ordinances, therefore the verse's description of what was abolished matches it perfectly.


In the KJV. The Greek is another question. It's not so clear. That's why there's a debate about it.

 Quote:
The carnal mind is not a law and it doesn't contain ordinances. Neither can it be described as a handwritten document.


But it is enmity! And that's what Paul says was abolished -- there's no debate about that.

Here's another explanation:

 Quote:
Both Jew and Gentile have sinned. Both were cut off from God as a result. The Jews had a wall constructed in the court of the temple, and it physically separated the Gentiles. Yet, spiritually, both were cut off from God because both were sinners. "All have sinned…" Rom. 3:23.

This barrier of religious difference had to be broken down. And indeed it was. In Eph. 2:12 we see the Gentiles had been without God, strangers and aliens before they had accepted Christ, before they were obedient to God's law. They had been disobedient (v. 1-2). In v-3 Paul points out we all had been disobedient to God's law, both Jews and Gentiles. However, NOW, in Christ Jesus we are all made near by the blood of Christ (v-13). Made near to God and to each other.

By His blood, Christ broke down that middle wall of partition between Jew and Gentile.

He also broke down the wall separating both from God. Jew and Gentile are both now one new creation IN Christ. (v-14). Verse 15 shows what happened.

"Having abolished in His flesh the ENMITY…"


What was this ENMITY? Whatever it was, both were guilty of it. Whatever this ENMITY was is now abolished! It plainly says the ENMITY was abolished.

Romans 8:7 says…

"Because the minding of the flesh is ENMITY against God…"


So the natural mind of man (which is without the Spirit of God), both Jew and Gentile, is at odds, ENMITY, against God. How? Continue…

"for it (the natural mind) IS NOT SUBJECT TO THE LAW OF GOD, neither indeed can be!"


Both Jew and Gentile had broken God's law (sinned I Jn. 3:4), been disobedient by nature. The ENMITY of their natural mind was against and contrary to God's law! Christ, through His blood, abolished this ENMITY against God's law! Now the requirement of God's law can be met by those IN Christ Jesus (Rom. 8:4). Now we delight in the law of God after the inward man, that new creation, making both Jew and Gentile one new man. (Rom. 7:22; Eph. 2:15).

"I delight in the law of God after the inward man. Having abolished in His flesh the ENMITY (against God's law) … for to make in Himself of two, one new man, (obeying God's law) so making peace (between themselves and God)."


Again it is restated in Eph. 2:16 …

"And that He might reconcile BOTH unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the ENMITY thereby."


BOTH Jews and Gentiles were at odds against God's law. Now BOTH were reconciled to God by Christ abolishing this ENMITY. Now BOTH were obedient to, delighting in God's law. And by the very testimony of Jesus Christ, all the word of God is God's law. Now there is to be NO HOSTILITY against ANY of God's word, including His commandments, statutes, ordinances and laws. This is verified in the prophecy of Ezek. 11:19-20 regarding the new Spirit to be put inside people in the place of the spirit of ENMITY.

"And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh." And WHY?

"That they may walk in my statutes, and keep My ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God."


We ought to rejoice that IN Christ we have NO ENMITY against ANY of God's word!


What I've not seen in your responses is a clear explanation as to how the ceremonial law can be viewed as "enmity." Paul has stated elsewhere clearly what he has in mind by the word "enmity." That the carnal mind is enmity makes perfect sense; it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. That it needs to be abolished makes sense. That is was abolished at the cross makes sense. Everything makes sense about this interpretation, the only perplexing part being what to make of Paul's use of the phrase "the law contained in ordinances."

We need to consider what Paul's main point is. The interpretation it seems to me that you are suggesting is that the ceremonial law was abolished, which was "enmity," and that doing this established peace. That doesn't make sense to me because the ceremonial law is a figure of Christ's ministry, which isn't enmity. Also abolishing it doesn't establish peace. So I can't see how this could be what Paul had in mind. Also this idea doesn't fit with the context of the passage.

 Quote:
Yes, please see if you can find the Waggoner stuff.


Ok. I'm working on it.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: What was nailed to the cross in Col 2:14? [Re: Tom] #101560
08/13/08 09:04 PM
08/13/08 09:04 PM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
 Quote:
R: The carnal mind is not a law and it doesn't contain ordinances. Neither can it be described as a handwritten document.
T: But it is enmity! And that's what Paul says was abolished -- there's no debate about that.

It's not so simple. Everything depends on the relationship between "enmity" ("hostility"), "wall" and "law." There are three possible renderings for the verse:

". . .having destroyed the middle wall of partition, namely, the hostility; in his flesh having rendered inoperative the law of commandments in decrees. . ."

". . .having in his flesh destroyed the middle wall of partition, namely,the hostility; having rendered inoperative the law of commandments in decrees. . ."

". . . having destroyed the middle wall of partition, having in his flesh rendered inoperative the hostility, namely the law of commandments in decrees. . ."

http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek/test-archives/html4/1998-02/23764.html

Re: What was nailed to the cross in Col 2:14? [Re: Rosangela] #101568
08/13/08 11:16 PM
08/13/08 11:16 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
The hostility is the enmity. The hostility is taken away when the hostile unbeliever accepts Christ by faith.

This explains the situation in a way that makes sense to me:

 Quote:
" Hath broken down the middle wall of partition between "—whom? Between men and God, surely. How did he do it ? How did he break down the middle wall of partition between us and God?—By " abolishing the enmity." Good.

True, that enmity had worked a division and a separation between men on the earth, between circumcision and uncircumcision; between circumcision according to the flesh, and uncircumcision according to the flesh. It had manifested itself in their divisions, in building up another wall between Jews and entiles; that is true, but if the Jews had been joined to God, and had not been separated from him, would they have ever built up a wall between them and anybody else ? — No, certainly not, but in their separation from God; in their fleshly minds; in the enmity that was in their minds, and the blindness through unbelief, which put the veil upon their heart — all this separated them from God. And then because of the laws and ceremonies which God had given them, they gave themselves credit for being the ' Lord's and for being so much better than other' people, that they built up a great separating wall and partition between themselves and other people. But where lay the root of the whole thing, as between them and other people even ? — It lay in the enmity And in Christ, God and man met so that they can be one.(emphasis mine)


The Jews were using the law to create a division, because of their unbelief. In Christ, unbelief is taken away, and peace can be established, between God and man, and between man and man.

Regarding Waggoner, see the next post please.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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by kland. 04/11/24 12:34 PM
Perils of the Emerging Church Movement
by ProdigalOne. 04/06/24 07:10 PM
Are we seeing a outpouring of the Holy Spirit?
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