Yes.

(MM, this is a long one. You may wish to split this up if you wish to respond to each point.)



To make clear whether a given event is something God wanted to happen or something God allowed to happen.



Noone wants their loved one to die. The following makes it clear that it was a struggle for God to allow Christ to come:



Why was it a struggle? Was it because God was in any way not desirous that mankind should be saved? Of course not. It was because He didn't want His Son to die (actually there's more to it, but I'll leave it at this for now).



Clearly not. It was a struggle.



Because this recognizes it was a struggle for the Father to allow Jesus to do so.



It could imply it to one unaware of the issues involved.



No, He didn't.



Christ was delivered to His enemies, who crucified Him. God allowed this to happen.




This isn't the context of what we were discussing. We were discussing God's allowing Christ to be crucified.



How would our choices derail the GC? If that could happen, then Satan is right in his accusations.



If God prevented the effects of sin from being seen, then the effects of sin would not be seen (Brilliant!). In order for the truth to be known, that Satan is a liar and his accusations have no foundation, it is necessary for the effects of sin to be seen.



Your turn to be brilliant.



God is in control of the outcome of the evil person's choice because He didn't kill him? Let's apply this logic to yourself. Say you have a child, and that child, God forbid, does something evil. Are you in control of the outcome of your child's choices because you could have killed him but didn't?



So if a person were involved instead of a bullet (say the person is strangling another with his bear hands), then God wouldn't have the right to intervene. This is the implication of your statement. Unless you want to argue that hands have no rights the He must avoid violating.

You should be able to see that volition, and not bullets, is the salient feature here.



To win the GC, the truth must be seen. Satan and sin must be contrasted to Christ and righteousness. God is involved in the GC by manifesting the truth about Himself in Christ.

I see you are agreeing with me that God is not responsible for the evil plans wicked people devise. Good. There is also no problem in saying that God works with the victims of those impacted by these evil decisions. But saying "He manages precisely how each and every choice will play out." is saying too much. This implies that the evil things that happen are God's will.



God didn't change His mind about not wanting the bullet to kill someone just because someone pulled the trigger, which is what your statement implies. Why didn't God want the assissin to fire the gun? Obviously so that the victim would not be killed. Given this is the case, after the bullet is fired, if God were to manage things according to what He wanted, He wouldn't allow the bullet to find its target. You are implying that God changed His mind after the gun was fired.





I say "For example, smoking may cause lung cancer." and you respond, "No, God is not bound by natural law, by the normal cause and effect relationships."

What?! How do you get from the statement that "smoking may cause lung cancer" to "No, God is not bound by natural law."??




You are implying that God manipulates things to serve Himself. This is exactly what Satan accuses Him of doing.



He is involved by giving Himself to all the victims of sin and fighting for righteousness and truth. He is not involved in manipulating the results of people's choices to serve Himself.

If God did this, He would not be allowing for beings to exercise free choice, but instead manipulating choices to make Himself look good, the very thing Satan is accusing Him of doing.

At great pain to Himself, and others, God allows beings to make evil choices which harm others.



Say a person chooses to be lost. Is this God's will? Is God managing precisely the details of the person's choices so that His desired outcome will occur? Could God have managed things differently so that a different outcome would happen? Or do things happen which are contrary to God's will?

Part One.


True, wanting versus allowing a given event to unfold a certain way reflects two different realities. A “given event” unfolded the way it did because of two cause and effect forces: 1) the choices people made, and 2) the choices God made. Given the circumstances, taking into consideration the choices people make, God wants to do the right thing. It is His will and desire to manage the consequences of their choices to ensure the most suitable and desirable outcome.


The insight you quoted makes it clear to me God loved both equally. Having to choose between allowing one or the other to suffer and die is what caused God such intense grief. It’s like a Nazi soldier asking a parent, Choose between your spouse and son who should be tortured to death. So, the difficulty in the choice is in deciding which one should be tortured to death and which one should die a natural death later on. Either way the parent will be reunited with both in heaven.

It was God’s will and desire to save mankind, thus it was His will and desire for Jesus to suffer and die, for there was no other way to make salvation available. The thought of spending eternity without making it possible for humans to be saved was more than God could live with. His love for man was so great, so deep He “gave” His only begotten Son to pay their sin debt of death so that He could save them eternally.


It was not a struggle for God to want to save man. He desperately wanted to save them.


Would it have been the Father’s will if Jesus hadn’t wanted to suffer and die to redeem man? Would the Father have had to order Jesus to do it if it wasn’t His will to do so? Or, would the Father have done it Himself?


What happens when people choose Satan’s way? By “Satan’s way” I suppose you mean when they knowingly and deliberately rebel against God’s will (as opposed to being deceived into sinning, or sinning out of ignorance). What was supposed to happen didn’t happen because God intervened. A&E were supposed to die the same day they sinned. But instead, God intervened and implemented the plan of salvation, which radically altered what was supposed to happen.

In the scenario you described, God intervened every step of the way ensuring the closing scenes of Jesus’ life unfolded according to God’s plan. Throughout His public ministry Jesus repeatedly said, “Mine hour is not yet come.” He knew the script and the schedule. He wasn’t shooting from the hip. He wasn’t winging it. He knew how things were supposed to play out. His life was perfectly mapped out, perfectly orchestrated. Nothing was random. He said, “Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!” Mat 18:7.


Talking past each other we are, Luke. Actually you’re Yoda and I’m Luke. Whatever. At any rate, agree with the point you do?


The antediluvians almost derailed the GC. But God intervened and destroyed all but eight souls. God again intervened at the tower of Babel; otherwise, the none would have remained who served God. To win the GC two outcomes are necessary: 1) Satan must lose, and 2) God must win. More to the point, Satan must fail at producing 144,000 sinless saints, and God must succeed at producing 144,000 sinless saints.


It’s the thought that counts, right? The fact the abuser wanted to abuse the child is enough of an effect to demonstrate the hideous consequences sinning. How it plays out after the corrupt thought is cherished is up to God.


Why, thank you, fine sir.

Part Two.


Are you suggesting there is no difference between God’s role and responsibilities as a parent and mine? I’m flattered you think so, but I must beg to differ. It’s like comparing poop and pudding, to put it bluntly.


In your scenario the same principle applies. God could easily choose to cease keeping his heart beating and the strangler would be unable to kill his victim. The strangler is still guilty of wanting to commit murder. The point is – We manage the choices, but God manages the consequences.


I’m glad you agree God can and does intervene on behalf of victims. By this I assume you mean He alters the sinner’s intended outcome. Do you have an example in mind?

Also, if the outcome does not quite play out the way the sinner intended, but is, nevertheless, unfavorable for the victim, is it evidence God did not intervene? In other words, must the outcome be favorable for the victim if we are to assume God intervened? Or, if the outcome is in any way unfavorable are we to assume God did not intervene because otherwise it would imply that “the evil things that happen are God's will”?


God doesn’t change His mind. He never has, and never will. It is never His will for assassins to want to kill people. Nor will He ever violate their freedom or ability to want to choose, or to choose, to kill people. Nevertheless, there are times when circumstances force God to employ His enemies to carry out His will. For example, it was God’s will for Jews and Gentiles to nail Jesus to the cross. “Then said he unto the disciples, It is impossible but that offences will come: but woe unto him, through whom they come!” Luke 17:1.


Whether or not smoking causes cancer depends on if God chooses to intervene and prevent the normal cause and effect outcome in cases where people are sure to come down lung cancer related to smoking. I realize you used the word “may”, which is why felt it was necessary to clarify my response.


You could also look it as God making sure Satan doesn’t take advantage of the situation. Remember, God allows the Devil to employ tactics not appropriate for God to employ.


No matter what people do, good or bad, it ultimately serves to demonstrate the truth about God’s claims and Satan’s accusations. “For we can do nothing against the truth, but for the truth.” 2 Cor 13:8. It will serve God when Satan loses the GC, and it will serve God when He wins the GC. But God cannot sit back and allow Satan to manipulate people to his advantage and to God’s disadvantage. God’s active involvement prevents this from happening. And, He accomplished His goals without violating free will.

No, God does not manipulate the choices people make, although, He has from time to time exerted a powerful influence that led to people making the choice God desired. For example, King Cyrus. See Daniel 10.


People are saved by faith, not by works, therefore God does not have to manage the outcome of their choice, unless you consider He already worked it out from the foundation of the world.

Also, people do not have to choose to be lost, they need only neglect to choose to be saved. People are lost by default. "Our condemnation in the judgment will not result from the fact that we have been in error, but from the fact that we have neglected heaven-sent opportunities for learning what is truth." {DA 489.5}

I didn't understand some of your points. Regarding this one



the following statement looks to disagree:



From this we see that one must do something, namely resist the drawing of God, in order to be lost.

Another statement making the same point:



Yet another:



One more:



From the last statement we see that one must interpose a perverse will to prevent being made like unto Christ.

Even if people do not resist the wooing influence of the Holy Spirit, in the end they must choose to be saved, right? If they neglect to choose to be saved they are lost. Resisting the Holy Spirit is neglecting to choose to be saved.

PS - Tom, I put a lot of time and effort in the last several posts on this thread, and I would very much appreciate you addressing my comments and questions. Thank you.

By the way, anyone else reading them are also welcome to respond.

Part One Response



Good! Glad we're on the same page here.



It's very important to distinguish things here, as we're talking about two different wills here. In the case of the choices people make, the will involved is active. In the case of God, it's permissive. So it's misleading to say that things play out the way God wants, as this could imply that God wants children to be abused, genocide to occur, and many other hideous things. It's much clearer, it seems to me, to simply say that people and evil beings are responsible for the evil that exists, and God allows the evil things that happen to occur because this is necessary in order for Satan's charges to be disproved.



I think it would be better if you were clearer about when God's permissive will is involved. It was God's active will that mankind be saved, and His permissive will that His Son die. When you use the same words to describe both choices, it clouds the issue, in my opinion.

I think your analogy of the Nazi covers the situation well. You wouldn't say, in reference to who is chosen to be spared, that the person's "will and desire" was that the other one should be tortured and killed, would you? Yet this is the misleading language you are using in reference to God, for an analagous situation.



We're talking about different things here. My comments were specific, in regards to God's allowing Christ to be crucified (if you look at the quote of our conversation, you can see this). God did not intervene. He allowed His Son to be crucified.



I was talking about Christ's crucifixion, and you went off onto something else. You did the same thing again in this post, which I pointed out in the comment right above this one. Regarding that God protects people from experiencing the full force of their sin and guilt, yes, this is something God does. He also does this for the wicked angels.



Hard to follow this. Satan must fail at producing 144,000 sinless saints?

The Great Controversy is in regards to God's character. Satan has made accusations against God, representing Him to be such a one as himself, one who relies upon force to get his way, and one who is cruel, burning people alive. In order to show what God is really like, God sent His Son. In Christ we see the truth about God.

Christ instructed us to pray, "Thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven." In so instructing us, Christ made it clear that God's will is not being done on earth. This is obvious as we look around and see all the suffering and injustice which abounds.

If God is good, loving, and all-powerful, why is there suffering? Because His creatures choose to act contrary to His will. If God's will were done by all, there wouldn't be suffering.



If what you mean by this is that there are times when God allows evil people to do the evil they have purposed, I agree, but your way of putting it is vague. To say it's "up to God" how it plays out may be taken to mean that what happens is God's will. If you simply say that God permits or allows certain things to happen which are contrary to His will, that makes things clear.