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Sins of ignorance #102423
09/08/08 12:48 AM
09/08/08 12:48 AM
Tom  Offline OP
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It has been asserted that "Sins of ignorance can only apply to the first half of the law." (MM)

I'm starting a topic on this to see if anyone is interested in discussing this. I'm interested in seeing MM present an argument that this is the case. Perhaps the easiest way to show this is not the case is to provide a sin of ignorance which violates one of the last six commandments.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Sins of ignorance [Re: Tom] #102479
09/10/08 01:02 PM
09/10/08 01:02 PM
Tom  Offline OP
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MM, how would you define a sin of ignorance?


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Sins of ignorance [Re: Tom] #102533
09/12/08 05:42 PM
09/12/08 05:42 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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A sin of ignorance means doing something you have no idea is wrong. Nothing in nature hints at it being wrong. Apart from the Bible nobody would be able to point to it as wrong. This applies only to the first four commandments of God's law.

Nothing in nature teaches that it is wrong to have more than one god, that it is wrong to make icons representing god, that it is wrong to take god's name in vain, or that it is wrong to break the Sabbath.

True, violating these commandments, even ignorantly, makes people feel empty and miserable, but they are incapable of identifying the cause of their emptiness and misery. It requires Bible study and prayer to make the connection.

Re: Sins of ignorance [Re: Mountain Man] #102547
09/13/08 12:25 AM
09/13/08 12:25 AM
Rosangela  Offline
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What in nature hints at lying, for instance, being wrong? Especially if you do it for a good purpose?

Re: Sins of ignorance [Re: Rosangela] #102562
09/13/08 01:48 AM
09/13/08 01:48 AM
Tom  Offline OP
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 Quote:
A sin of ignorance means doing something you have no idea is wrong. Nothing in nature hints at it being wrong. Apart from the Bible nobody would be able to point to it as wrong. This applies only to the first four commandments of God's law.


Why would you think this?

 Quote:
1 The heavens declare the glory of God;
the skies proclaim the work of his hands.

2 Day after day they pour forth speech;
night after night they display knowledge.

3 There is no speech or language
where their voice is not heard. (Ps. 19)


 Quote:
20For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

21For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him(Romans 1:20, 21)


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Sins of ignorance [Re: Rosangela] #102583
09/13/08 03:37 PM
09/13/08 03:37 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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 Originally Posted By: Rosangela
What in nature hints at lying, for instance, being wrong? Especially if you do it for a good purpose?

The fact people naturally feel wrong about lying is evidence they were born with the law written upon every nerve and function of their being from birth.

Re: Sins of ignorance [Re: Mountain Man] #102584
09/13/08 03:58 PM
09/13/08 03:58 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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 Originally Posted By: Tom
MM: A sin of ignorance means doing something you have no idea is wrong. Nothing in nature hints at it being wrong. Apart from the Bible nobody would be able to point to it as wrong. This applies only to the first four commandments of God's law.

TE: Why would you think this?

Nothing in the natural world reveals or reiterates the first four commandments. The following passages make it clear that humans misinterpret nature and form erroneous conclusions about God. It is impossible to read nature aright without an intelligent, intimate knowledge of God's word, the Holy Bible.

Though all these evidences [in nature] have been given, the enemy of good blinded the minds of men, so that they looked upon God with fear; they thought of Him as severe and unforgiving. Satan led men to conceive of God as a being whose chief attribute is stern justice,--one who is a severe judge, a harsh, exacting creditor. {SC 10.3}

Yet these revelations [in nature] are partial and imperfect. And in our fallen state, with weakened powers and restricted vision, we are incapable of interpreting aright. We need the fuller revelation of Himself that God has given in His written word. {Ed 16.3}

The deepest students of science are constrained to recognize in nature the working of infinite power. But to man's unaided reason, nature's teaching cannot but be contradictory and disappointing. Only in the light of revelation can it be read aright. "Through faith we understand." Hebrews 11:3. {Ed 134.1}

So today man cannot of himself read aright the teaching of nature. Unless guided by divine wisdom, he exalts nature and the laws of nature above nature's God. This is why mere human ideas in regard to science so often contradict the teaching of God's word. {MH 461.6}

Re: Sins of ignorance [Re: Mountain Man] #102593
09/13/08 06:55 PM
09/13/08 06:55 PM
Rosangela  Offline
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 Quote:
R: What in nature hints at lying, for instance, being wrong? Especially if you do it for a good purpose?
MM: The fact people naturally feel wrong about lying is evidence they were born with the law written upon every nerve and function of their being from birth.

They don't feel wrong about lying for a good purpose, like Rahab did. In my opinion, hers was a sin of ignorance.

Is your opinion that just the last six commandments are written in the hearts of people - and were written in Adam's heart?

Re: Sins of ignorance [Re: Rosangela] #102597
09/13/08 07:38 PM
09/13/08 07:38 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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 Originally Posted By: Rosangela
They don't feel wrong about lying for a good purpose, like Rahab did. In my opinion, hers was a sin of ignorance.

Rahab feared for her life because she was doing something wrong. Do you know of any Bible commentaries that agree with you?

 Originally Posted By: Rosangela
Is your opinion that just the last six commandments are written in the hearts of people - and were written in Adam's heart?

All ten.

Re: Sins of ignorance [Re: Mountain Man] #102600
09/14/08 01:48 AM
09/14/08 01:48 AM
Rosangela  Offline
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Brazil
 Quote:
R: They don't feel wrong about lying for a good purpose, like Rahab did. In my opinion, hers was a sin of ignorance.
MM: Rahab feared for her life because she was doing something wrong. Do you know of any Bible commentaries that agree with you?

She feared for her life? If she had feared for her life, she would have denounced the spies. On the contrary, she risked her life to protect them.

Sure, I can find Bible commentaries which agree with me.

James, Fausset and Brown:

 Quote:
This was a palpable deception. But, as lying is a common vice among heathen people, Rahab was probably unconscious of its moral guilt, especially as she resorted to it as a means for screening her guests; and she might deem herself bound to do it by the laws of Eastern hospitality, which make it a point of honor to preserve the greatest enemy, if he has once eaten one’s salt. Judged by the divine law, her answer was a sinful expedient; but her infirmity being united with faith, she was graciously pardoned and her service accepted (Jam_2:25).


Matthew Henry:

 Quote:
Rahab knew, by what was already done on the other side Jordan, that no mercy was to be shown to the Canaanites, and thence inferred that, if mercy was not owing them, truth was not; those that might be destroyed might be deceived. Yet divines generally conceive that it was a sin, which however admitted of this extenuation, that being a Canaanite she was not better taught the evil of lying; but God accepted her faith and pardoned her infirmity. ... But God accepts what is sincerely and honestly intended, though there be a mixture of frailty and folly in it, and is not extreme to mark what we do amiss.


SDABC:

Please consult the comment on Jos. 2:4. I don't have an English copy, but it says more or less the following:

 Quote:
In the case of a Christian, a lie can never be justified, but the light comes only gradually to a person like Rahab. [translation from Spanish back into English]


It then goes on to speak about a time when the people of God didn't know about the Sabbath and the tithe, and then quotes Acts 17:30.

Re: Sins of ignorance [Re: Rosangela] #102612
09/14/08 05:43 AM
09/14/08 05:43 AM
Tom  Offline OP
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 Quote:
Nothing in the natural world reveals or reiterates the first four commandments. The following passages make it clear that humans misinterpret nature and form erroneous conclusions about God. It is impossible to read nature aright without an intelligent, intimate knowledge of God's word, the Holy Bible.


If your last sentence were true, then no one from Adam to Moses read nature aright.

Also reading nature aright isn't the issue. The issue is why you make a distinction between the first four commandments and the last six. None of the statements you quoted suggested a distinction between the two tables. If a person has wrong conceptions of God, that will lead him to break all 10 of the commandments, not just the first 4.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Sins of ignorance [Re: Tom] #102627
09/14/08 05:46 PM
09/14/08 05:46 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Having memorized what eventually became part of the Bible is as good as having the Bible in hand. Having the Bible in mind is as good as having it in hand. Thus the people who lived before Moses recorded the Bible were able to read nature aright.

The heathens Paul and Sister White wrote about lived in harmony with the last six commandments without knowing they exist. They were able to do this by the power of the Holy Spirit without realizing He exists. But no one has been able to live in harmony with the first four commandments without realizing they exist.

Re: Sins of ignorance [Re: Mountain Man] #102638
09/14/08 07:38 PM
09/14/08 07:38 PM
Tom  Offline OP
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 Quote:
The heathens Paul and Sister White wrote about lived in harmony with the last six commandments without knowing they exist. They were able to do this by the power of the Holy Spirit without realizing He exists. But no one has been able to live in harmony with the first four commandments without realizing they exist.


Why do you think this? I guess I'm several things.

1.Why do you think the heathen lived in harmony with the last six commandments without knowing they existed?
2.Why do you think they didn't keep the first three commandments?
3.Why do you think no one has been able to live in harmony with the first three commandments without realizing they exist?


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Sins of ignorance [Re: Tom] #102655
09/15/08 02:17 AM
09/15/08 02:17 AM
Mountain Man  Offline
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It is reality.

Re: Sins of ignorance [Re: Mountain Man] #102666
09/15/08 03:25 AM
09/15/08 03:25 AM
Tom  Offline OP
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Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
A thought that comes to mind is that AFAIK you are the only one who holds this view. If this really were reality, wouldn't it be likely that someone else would perceive it?

Also your response is rather skimpy. If you would elaborate that would be appreciated.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Sins of ignorance [Re: Tom] #102692
09/15/08 06:14 PM
09/15/08 06:14 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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1.Why do you think the heathen lived in harmony with the last six commandments without knowing they existed?

People who have never heard of the Bible have lived in harmony with the last half of the law of God. See Romans 2:13-15.

2.Why do you think they didn't keep the first three commandments?

Because it is impossible to live in harmony with commandments you've never heard of.

3.Why do you think no one has been able to live in harmony with the first three commandments without realizing they exist?

Because nothing outside the Bible teaches it.

Re: Sins of ignorance [Re: Mountain Man] #102708
09/15/08 09:13 PM
09/15/08 09:13 PM
Tom  Offline OP
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 Quote:
(T)1.Why do you think the heathen lived in harmony with the last six commandments without knowing they existed?

(M)People who have never heard of the Bible have lived in harmony with the last half of the law of God. See Romans 2:13-15.


This isn't limited to the last half of the law.

 Quote:
(T)2.Why do you think they didn't keep the first three commandments?

M:Because it is impossible to live in harmony with commandments you've never heard of.


No, this isn't the case.

 Quote:
Those whom Christ commends in the judgment may have known little of theology, but they have cherished His principles. (DA 638)


Christ's principles are embodied by the 10 Commandments. For example, those among the heathen who are converted have no other Gods before God. God communicates with them by the Holy Spirit. They know His voice, just like any other child of God.

 Quote:
(T)3.Why do you think no one has been able to live in harmony with the first three commandments without realizing they exist?

M:Because nothing outside the Bible teaches it.


This isn't true at all. It is God who teaches the commandments by the Holy Spirit. God uses the Bible, but He is not limited to the Bible to instruct His children.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Sins of ignorance [Re: Tom] #102728
09/16/08 03:00 PM
09/16/08 03:00 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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TE: Christ's principles are embodied by the 10 Commandments. For example, those among the heathen who are converted have no other Gods before God. God communicates with them by the Holy Spirit. They know His voice, just like any other child of God.

MM: I agree. They embrace the truths they didn't know instinctively when presented to them by missionaries if they were already living in harmony with their conscience and convictions.

By the way, how did the Holy Spirit reveal the first half of the law of God to them without using a Bible or a missionary? Please cite an example.

Re: Sins of ignorance [Re: Mountain Man] #102760
09/16/08 07:23 PM
09/16/08 07:23 PM
Tom  Offline OP
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# The Davis Indians of Guyana (overwhelmingly SDA), and their messenger, Akura, who clearly was taught with no Bible: "In these visions he was taught many things, including abstaining from eating unclean meats, the seventh-day Sabbath, and prayer." A detailed story is here: http://tinyurl.com/5rtk9n (if he requires more SDA proof of this here is a http://tinyurl.com/5awbnx )

# The Native Inupiat (Eskimo to you guys in NYC) Maniilaq who Maniilaq in the mid 1800's learns about the Sabbath without ever reading a Bible or seeing a missionary. Predicts future changes to the Eskimo people, free's the people from the power of the Shamans various taboos and teaches people to honor the seventh day of the week as a day of rest in honor of “Grandfather” in heaven.

# Hong Xiuchuan, a peasant farmer in China learns about God through a remarkable vision. His religious zeal sweeps through the oppressed peasant class, inspiring the greatest revolutionary movement of the 19th century. The Taiping leaders took the fourth commandment quite literally, requiring the observance of the seventh day of the week as the Sabbath.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Sins of ignorance [Re: Tom] #102852
09/18/08 03:10 PM
09/18/08 03:10 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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# The Davis Indians of Guyana (overwhelmingly SDA), and their messenger, Akura. I couldn't find any reputable information on this story. The story seems to have originated with Bob Norton, an SDA mission pilot in Venezuela.

# The Native Inupiat (Eskimo to you guys in NYC) Maniilaq. This story is full of contradictions.

 Quote:
The Pole and the Day of Reverence

Maniixauraq erected his pole everywhere he went. He then attached something to the end of the pole. He told the people that the day on which he attached something to it was a day to revere. He further told them that one special day should be respected. Today, we find it to be the Sabbath day, Sunday.

The Day of Rest

I had planned to speak only briefly but another thing is that before I came here, I spoke to my 'older sister' Sanmiban (Flora Cleveland) and found out that he also had his pole when he was living across there at Sisualik. It is said that as life went on for him, he told the people that he had reverence for one day. He said that he would not work and would simply rest on that certain day. Well, when the day came, he was reported to have hung something on the end of his pole. By attaching something to the end of his pole, this was probably how he showed the people that the day had arrived. After attaching the thing to the pole on the day he said he would rest and not work, that is just what he did. He simply rested. This is what Cora Gray said as she relayed her mother's words. As it turned out, somehow he knew it was Sunday (although there were no calendars) and it was then that he rested and told the people he held that day in reverence.

The Sabbath

Esther's father, Aqsivaabruk, said that Maniixaq rested every seven days, or on the seventh. Although people in those days knew nothing of the week-days as we know them today (for they viewed time and space from a different perspective than we do now), Maniixauraq rested on the seventh day. Today, we interpret this to be the Sabbath day. When Christianity was in its early stages in this area, people rested on the Sabbath, which was understood to be Saturday. Later we went along with those that changed their Sabbath to Sunday. As it was, it is said that Maniixauraq rested on the seventh of every seven days. He did not work on that day. People often said to him, "Why are you resting? You are just lazy, that is why you are not doing anything." He replied that he lived by the commandments of his grandfather. Esther Norton said more but she did not write them down, so that is all I have to say for now.

The Day of Rest

It is said that Maniixaq rested every seventh day. "It is a day of rest," he said and that was what he did on that day.

In those days, people had never heard of a day of rest. They most likely did not say such things as, "The day of rest has arrived." Of course in those days, they did not even have calendars so they were not aware of a day of rest within a week.

In spite of this, it is said that Maniixaq rested true to his word, and did not do any work on the seventh day of every seven days. As it was, he must have rested on the Sabbath. After all, beginning with Monday, Sunday is the seventh day of each week. He must have known about it in spite of the rest of the people's ignorance of such matters in those days, which explains why he did rest.

http://www.alaskool.org/language/Maniilaq/webhtm/Maniilaq_sec4.htm#eibenglish


# Hong Xiuchuan. This story has odd elements. He thought he was the Son of God.

 Quote:
The leader of the rebellion, Hong Xiuchuan, considered himself a Christian and saw himself as the son of God ordered to save the world. His movement was for sharing wealth, for land distribution and for the Ten Commandments. It favored chastity and an end to foot-binding for women and was opposed to opium smoking. It swept across central-eastern China, intending to drive away" Manchu demons" and rival faiths - the rebels destroying Buddhist and Taoist temples. Chinese intellectuals sided with Manchu rule rather than Hong's rebellion. And Christian missionaries rejected Hong's movement, seeing Hong's views as heretical and his movement as an infringement on their own moves to Christianize.

http://www.fsmitha.com/h3/h38china.htm

Re: Sins of ignorance [Re: Mountain Man] #102853
09/18/08 03:12 PM
09/18/08 03:12 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Tom, do you have any reputable stories where God revealed truths to people through means not involving missionaries or the Bible? Did Sister White cite any such stories?

Re: Sins of ignorance [Re: Mountain Man] #102869
09/18/08 05:34 PM
09/18/08 05:34 PM
Tom  Offline OP
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 Quote:
Tom, do you have any reputable stories where God revealed truths to people through means not involving missionaries or the Bible?


Enoch comes to mind. Abraham also.

 Quote:
Did Sister White cite any such stories?


She mentioned Enoch and Abraham.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Sins of ignorance [Re: Tom] #102896
09/19/08 02:16 AM
09/19/08 02:16 AM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Funny. I take it then that you cannot produce legitimate stories where people arrived at the truths contained in the first four commandments without the assistance of oral tradition, the Bible, or missionaries. If not, what does this tell us about instinctive and the first half of the law of God?

Re: Sins of ignorance [Re: Mountain Man] #102906
09/19/08 03:05 PM
09/19/08 03:05 PM
Tom  Offline OP
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 Quote:
Funny. I take it then that you cannot produce legitimate stories where people arrived at the truths contained in the first four commandments without the assistance of oral tradition, the Bible, or missionaries.


It's not funny. Abraham was a heathen. God communicated with him without any reference to the Bible. He was as much a heathen as any of the stories I'm mentioning. Now if God could communicate with the heathen Abraham, why couldn't He do so with other heathens?

 Quote:
# The Davis Indians of Guyana (overwhelmingly SDA), and their messenger, Akura. I couldn't find any reputable information on this story. The story seems to have originated with Bob Norton, an SDA mission pilot in Venezuela.


Why do you consider Bob Norton to be disreputable? In the 1932 edition of Origins and Progress of the Seventh-day Adventists Elder Olsen chronicles O.E Davis mission and martyrdom there in 1911. This is long before Bob Norton, whom you for some unknown reason apparently consider disreputable.

http://www.tagnet.org/gma/frontlin/davisdia.htm

 Quote:
If not, what does this tell us about instinctive and the first half of the law of God?


That you're barking up the wrong tree? \:\)

Seriously, I don't know what your point is here. All the commandments involve a combination of instinct and learning, regardless of which book they're in. Human beings learn what's right and wrong, and learn behavior. A person may have a general concept that it's wrong to take the life of another human being, but he may think there are exceptions. The law certainly treats cases differently depending on the circumstances. But a person's understanding of what constitutes murder is very nuanced and develops over a lifetime. Similarly a person knows something of God's existence. How do we even know God exists? God had to have created an innate capacity for us to know Him, otherwise we wouldn't know of Him. But just as our positions of murder are highly nuanced and develop over our lifetime, so does our understanding of God develop.

What I'm not seeing is any reason why you make a distinction between the first four commandments and the last six. This seems to be entirely arbitrary. For example, you asserted that no sin of ignorance involves the last six commandments. It's easy to see this can't be true. First of all, I've cited you several examples of this, such as polygamy and living together without being married.

Secondly, consider any sin, such as murder. When is killing someone justifiable and when is it not? A person's conception of this changes over time. A person could easily kill someone at one point in his life thinking it was justifiable and then later on change his mind, and come to believe that it wasn't. Assuming his latter position is correct, then when he took the person's life he was committing a sin of ignorance.

A thousand examples of this could be given. Here are a couple. A person may go to war, believing that he is doing right in fighting for his country, and then later on come to conclusion that the killing he did during the war was not justifiable. At the time of the war, his was a sin of ignorance.

Another example would be killing someone in self-defense.

Another example would be killing someone to protect a person in danger.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Sins of ignorance [Re: Tom] #102946
09/20/08 12:15 AM
09/20/08 12:15 AM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
 Originally Posted By: tom
What I'm not seeing is any reason why you make a distinction between the first four commandments and the last six. This seems to be entirely arbitrary. For example, you asserted that no sin of ignorance involves the last six commandments. It's easy to see this can't be true.

On this we disagree.

Re: Sins of ignorance [Re: Mountain Man] #102951
09/20/08 12:53 AM
09/20/08 12:53 AM
Tom  Offline OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Well, what's the reason then?


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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