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Re: Lesson #8 - Born of a Woman—Atonement and the INCARNATION [Re: Mountain Man] #106049
12/14/08 08:44 AM
12/14/08 08:44 AM
asygo  Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Ellen's argument is convincing: "For four thousand years the race had been decreasing in physical strength, in mental power, and in moral worth; and Christ took upon Him the infirmities of degenerate humanity. Only thus could He rescue man from the lowest depths of his degradation. {DA 117.1}

Excellent quote. I was wondering when someone would bring it up.

Question: Was Christ's humanity of lower moral worth than Adam's humanity?


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
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Re: Lesson #8 - Born of a Woman—Atonement and the INCARNATION [Re: asygo] #106325
12/20/08 07:26 AM
12/20/08 07:26 AM
asygo  Offline OP
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Bump for MM.

There's a couple of posts here for you (and whoever else wants to jump in). And here's another quote:
Quote:
"For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh"--it could not justify man, because in his sinful nature he could not keep the law--"God sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: that the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." {PP 373.1}

Is this "sinful nature" that "could not keep the law" the same "sinful nature" that Jesus had?


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
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Re: Lesson #8 - Born of a Woman—Atonement and the INCARNATION [Re: asygo] #106328
12/20/08 08:47 AM
12/20/08 08:47 AM
Tom  Offline
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Lawrence, Kansas
Although this is direct to MM, yes, of course, it's the same sinful nature. Otherwise Paul's point in Romans 8:3,4 doesn't make sense.

Waggoner comments:

Quote:
Likeness of Sinful Flesh. There is a common idea that this means that Christ simulated sinful flesh; that he did not take upon himself actual sinful flesh, but only what appeared to be such. But the Scriptures do not teach such a thing. "In all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful High Priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people." Heb. 2:17. He was "born of a woman, born under the law," that he might redeem them that were under the law. Gal. 4:4, 5.

He took the same flesh that all have who are born of woman. A parallel text to Romans 8:3, 4 is found in 2 Corinthians 5:21. The former says that Christ was sent in the likeness of sinful flesh, "that the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us." The latter says that God "made him to be sin for us," although he knew no sin, "that we might be made the righteousness of God in him."

"Compassed with Infirmity." All the comfort that we can get from Christ lies in the knowledge that he was made in all things as we are. Otherwise we should hesitate to tell him of our weaknesses and failures. The priest who makes sacrifices for sins must be one "who can have compassion on the ignorant, and on them that are out of the way; for that he himself also is compassed with infirmity." Heb. 5:2.

This applies perfectly to Christ; "for we have not an High Priest which can not be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin." Heb. 4:15. This is why we may come boldly to the throne of grace for mercy. So perfectly has Christ identified himself with us, that he even now feels our sufferings.

The Flesh and the Spirit. "For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit, the things of the Spirit." Note that this depends on the preceding statement, "that the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." The things of the Spirit are the commandments of God, because the law is spiritual. The flesh serves the law of sin (see the preceding chapter, and Galatians 5:19-21, where the works of the flesh are described). But Christ came in the same flesh, to show the power of the Spirit over the flesh. "They that are in the flesh can not please God. But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of Christ dwell in you."

Now no one will claim that the flesh of a man is any different after his conversion from what it was before. Least of all will the converted man himself say so; for he has continual evidence of its perversity. But if he is really converted, and the Spirit of Christ dwells in him, he is no more in the power of the flesh. Even so Christ came in the same sinful flesh, yet he was without sin, because he was always led by the Spirit. (Waggoner on Romans)


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Lesson #8 - Born of a Woman—Atonement and the INCARNATION [Re: Tom] #106338
12/20/08 07:43 PM
12/20/08 07:43 PM
A
Aaron  Offline
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Joined: May 2007
Posts: 82
TN
I'm reading a book called Repenting of Religion by Greg Boyd this week and he expounds on Bonhoeffer's idea about the tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil. He claims our fundamental sin is not our evil-as though the solution for sin was to become good-but our getting life from what we believe is our knowledge of good and evil. Our fundamental sin would be that we place ourselves in the position of God and divide the world between what we judge to be good and what we judge to be evil instead of just loving one another. If this is true, at this point Im not really sure, what does it mean to say Jesus had sinful nature? Was Jesus ever found wrongly judging others or do we only find him loving others? Like the woman at the well or the prostitute? If Boyd is correct, what does it do to ones view of Christ taking our sinful nature?

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Re: Lesson #8 - Born of a Woman—Atonement and the INCARNATION [Re: Tom] #106344
12/21/08 12:35 AM
12/21/08 12:35 AM
asygo  Offline OP
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,583
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Originally Posted By: Tom
Although this is direct to MM, yes, of course, it's the same sinful nature. Otherwise Paul's point in Romans 8:3,4 doesn't make sense.

Waggoner comments:

Just a quick observation: The EGW quote said "nature" while the JW quote said "flesh." Do these two words mean the same in this context?

EGW said, "In his sinful nature he could not keep the law."

Did JW mean to say, "In his sinful flesh he could not keep the law"?


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
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Re: Lesson #8 - Born of a Woman—Atonement and the INCARNATION [Re: asygo] #106353
12/21/08 08:19 AM
12/21/08 08:19 AM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Yes, I think they're saying the same thing. I think "flesh" is less ambiguous than "nature." "Nature" can mean many different things, depending upon the context. "Flesh" is less ambiguous.

When EGW speaks of "sinful nature," AFAIK she always has in mind the fallen human nature which Christ assumed, as in the quote, "He took upon His own sinless nature our sinful nature." (Medical Missionary 181; from memory, both the quote and cite, so might not be exact, but is at least very close).

EGW wrote that because of sin man has a nature which will inevitably lead him to sin apart from divine help. It was this nature which Christ assumed. Had Christ not relied upon divine help, He also would have inevitably sinned.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Lesson #8 - Born of a Woman—Atonement and the INCARNATION [Re: Tom] #106354
12/21/08 08:39 AM
12/21/08 08:39 AM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Aaron, regarding Bonhoeffer's idea, there used to be a fellow who posted here, John B., who could have explained this idea really well, as he often wrote of it. It's an interesting idea.

Personally I would formulate the question of man's fundamental sin in terms of God's character:

Quote:
Sin originated in self-seeking. Lucifer, the covering cherub, desired to be first in heaven. He sought to gain control of heavenly beings, to draw them away from their Creator, and to win their homage to himself. Therefore he misrepresented God,
attributing to Him the desire for self-exaltation. With his own evil characteristics he sought to invest the loving Creator. Thus he deceived angels. Thus he deceived men. He led them to doubt the word of God, and to distrust His goodness. Because God is a God of justice and terrible majesty, Satan caused them to look upon Him as severe and unforgiving. Thus he drew men to join him in rebellion against God, and the night of woe settled down upon the world. (DA 21, 22)


Since man's problem began with deception in regards to God's character, it seems to me that the solution involves this deception being corrected. By the way, Boyd follows this train of thought. He talks about this in the book "Is God to Blame."

Back to your question about Bonhoeffer's idea and Christ's taking our fallen nature. Bonhoeffer was a post-lapsarian, meaning that he believed that Christ took the fallen nature of Adam. John B. is also a post-lapsarian. So if there is some connection between Bonhoeffer's idea and Christ's taking our sinful nature, it would be that one having his idea would be a post-lapsarian. However, if there is such a connection, at least a direct one, I don't know what it would be.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Lesson #8 - Born of a Woman—Atonement and the INCARNATION [Re: Tom] #106360
12/22/08 12:01 AM
12/22/08 12:01 AM
asygo  Offline OP
SDA
Active Member 2023

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,583
California, USA
Originally Posted By: Tom
Yes, I think they're saying the same thing. I think "flesh" is less ambiguous than "nature." "Nature" can mean many different things, depending upon the context. "Flesh" is less ambiguous.

When EGW speaks of "sinful nature," AFAIK she always has in mind the fallen human nature which Christ assumed, as in the quote, "He took upon His own sinless nature our sinful nature." (Medical Missionary 181; from memory, both the quote and cite, so might not be exact, but is at least very close).

EGW wrote that because of sin man has a nature which will inevitably lead him to sin apart from divine help. It was this nature which Christ assumed. Had Christ not relied upon divine help, He also would have inevitably sinned.

FOTAP


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
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Re: Lesson #8 - Born of a Woman—Atonement and the INCARNATION [Re: asygo] #106362
12/22/08 02:30 AM
12/22/08 02:30 AM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
It seems clear EGW's writings can be taken in different ways on this question, since people have been doing so for the last 50 years or so. However, the strongest argument she was pre-lapsarian is the historical setting in which she wrote and lived. To name just one example, in fighting the Holy Flesh heresy, S. N. Haskell explained to her that their theology was that Christ had taken the nature of Adam before the fall, and that when "we" tried to tell them that Christ took the nature of Adam after the fall, they argued that had Christ done so he would have been a sinner.

Haskell read the following from "The Desire of Ages"

Quote:
Christ is the ladder that Jacob saw, the base resting on the earth, and the topmost round reaching to the gate of heaven, to the very threshold of glory. If that ladder had failed by a single step of reaching by a single step of reaching the earth, we should have been lost. But Christ reaches us where we are. He took our nature and overcame, that we through taking his nature might overcome. Made ‘in the likeness of sinful flesh,’ he lived a sinless life. Now by his divinity he lays hold upon the throne of heaven, while by his humanity he reaches us."(DA 311, 312)


Then he commented:

Quote:
This is fallen humanity with all its hereditary inclinations. He who was as spotless while on earth as when in heaven took our nature, that he might lift man to the exaltation of himself by his righteousness.(RH 10/02/00


From this we see that Ellen White was understood by her colleagues as being a post-lapsarian, and she was aware that this was the case. She approved of the method which was used to fight the holy-flesh heresy, which was to argue that Christ did not take the nature of Adam before the fall, as they were suggesting.

That Ellen White was a closet pre-lapsarian, keeping her true feelings a secret while supporting what she knew to be a false argument against the Holy Flesh heresy is not a credible suggestion.

There's much more historical evidence that can be cited to support that she was a post-lapsarian.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Lesson #8 - Born of a Woman—Atonement and the INCARNATION [Re: Tom] #106416
12/23/08 05:13 PM
12/23/08 05:13 PM
C
Colin  Offline
Active Member 2012
Very Dedicated Member
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,826
E. Oregon, USA
I fear you mistyped something there...
Quote:
However, the strongest argument she was pre-lapsarian is the historical setting in which she wrote and lived.

That mottly crew of "holy flesh" nonsense in 1901 odd showed she was post-lapsarian, of course, and showed that the other lot had adopted the thinking of Sunday churches which understands sin incorrectly - rendering Christ's assumption of sinful flesh making him a sinner: we are thus sinners by nature, not only by choice.

Being sinful by nature is not being a sinner - since we have choice, and God's power to obey, ie. avoid sinning. Yet, that holy flesh movement clearly differed with church understanding on Christ's humanity.

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