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Re: Are we born again with uncrucified sinful habits? [Re: Tom] #104814
11/18/08 06:38 PM
11/18/08 06:38 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
SDA
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Active Member 2019

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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Originally Posted By: Tom
Quote:
In Christ were united the divine and the human--the Creator and the creature. The nature of God, whose law had been transgressed, and the nature of Adam, the transgressor, meet in Jesus--the Son of God, and the Son of man. (7 SDABC 926)

It is not the nature of God, and the nature of unfallen Adam which meet in Christ, but the nature of "Adam, the transgressor."

Great quote, Tom. Thanx!

Re: Are we born again with uncrucified sinful habits? [Re: Mountain Man] #104820
11/18/08 07:42 PM
11/18/08 07:42 PM
asygo  Offline
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Active Member 2023

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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,583
California, USA
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Originally Posted By: asygo
M: Jesus did not have an evil heart; instead, He was incarnated with the same sinful flesh you and I inherited at birth. Yes, His sinless, divine nature recoiled from evil; nevertheless, His sinful nature clamored for sinful expression. Such clamoring do not constitute a sin, nor does it contaminate or corrupt character.

A: We have two sources of sin: Satan and the evil of our own hearts. That's according to the MB quote. If Jesus did not have an evil heart, that only leaves Him with Satan as a source of temptation. Right?

Arnold, the Bible says Jesus was tempted in "all points like as we are".

The MB quote says temptation comes from Satan and from the evil of our own hearts. Do you believe there are other sources of temptation besides these two?


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: Are we born again with uncrucified sinful habits? [Re: Mountain Man] #104822
11/18/08 08:02 PM
11/18/08 08:02 PM
asygo  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,583
California, USA
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
In the following passages Ellen describes some of the ways we are tempted:

Quote:
There is earnest warfare before all who would subdue the evil tendencies that strive for the mastery. {GC 489.3}

The conflict will be close between self and the grace of God. Self will strive for the mastery and will be opposed to the work of bringing the life and thoughts, the will and affections, into subjection to the will of Christ. {2T 687.3}

Every day hereditary tendencies to wrong will strive for the mastery. Every day you are to war against your objectionable traits of character, until there are left in you none of those things which need to be separated from you. Then you will think candidly and wisely how to take yourself to the Lord. You will foresee the evils which will come, unless you change by avoiding the cause which produces the effect. {VSS 304.4}

He who has determined to enter the spiritual kingdom will find that all the powers and passions of unregenerate nature, backed by the forces of the kingdom of darkness, are arrayed against him. Each day he must renew his consecration, each day do battle with evil. Old habits, hereditary tendencies to wrong, will strive for the mastery, and against these he is to be ever on guard, striving in Christ's strength for victory. {AA 476.3}

He who determines to enter the spiritual kingdom will find that all the powers and passions of an unregenerate nature, backed by the forces of the kingdom of darkness, are arrayed against him. Selfishness and pride will make a stand against anything that would show them to be sinful. We cannot, of ourselves, conquer the evil desires and habits that strive for the mastery. We cannot overcome the mighty foe who holds us in his thrall. God alone can give us the victory. He desires us to have the mastery over ourselves, our own will and ways. But He cannot work in us without our consent and co-operation. The divine Spirit works through the faculties and powers given to man. Our energies are required to co-operate with God. {MB 141.3}

If Jesus did not possess the same hereditary traits and tendencies we possess, which tempt and strive for the mastery, then it cannot be truly said that He was tempted in all points like we are. Doesn't this make sense?

It makes sense, but it is wrong. How many "points" of temptation are there? There are three. Jesus was tempted in all three points, as was UNFALLEN man.

Anyway, look at the parts I bolded in your quotes above. Are you saying that Jesus had all of these, just like we do? Can anyone who has these still be called "that Holy One"? Can one who has evil desires and habits be said to "recoil from evil"?


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: Are we born again with uncrucified sinful habits? [Re: asygo] #104834
11/18/08 11:24 PM
11/18/08 11:24 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
There are many points of temptation. As many ways as a person can be tempted, that's how many points there are. I'm sure Paul didn't have in mind the number "3" when he said that Christ was tempted in all points as we are.

If you wanted to, you could say there's only one point on which one can be tempted: to sin or not to sin. But Paul's point was that Christ was such a one as us, as far as temptation goes. Here's the context:

Quote:
14Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has gone through the heavens,[e] Jesus the Son of God, let us hold firmly to the faith we profess. 15For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet was without sin. 16Let us then approach the throne of grace with confidence, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help us in our time of need.

1Every high priest is selected from among men and is appointed to represent them in matters related to God, to offer gifts and sacrifices for sins. 2He is able to deal gently with those who are ignorant and are going astray, since he himself is subject to weakness.(Heb. 4:14-5:2)


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Are we born again with uncrucified sinful habits? [Re: Tom] #104835
11/18/08 11:38 PM
11/18/08 11:38 PM
asygo  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2023

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,583
California, USA
Originally Posted By: Tom
There are many points of temptation. As many ways as a person can be tempted, that's how many points there are. I'm sure Paul didn't have in mind the number "3" when he said that Christ was tempted in all points as we are.

If you wanted to, you could say there's only one point on which one can be tempted: to sin or not to sin. But Paul's point was that Christ was such a one as us, as far as temptation goes.

We are tempted by the evil of our own hearts. Was Jesus tempted by the evil of His own heart?

All temptations fall under one of the three main categories.


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: Are we born again with uncrucified sinful habits? [Re: asygo] #104840
11/19/08 12:01 AM
11/19/08 12:01 AM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Jesus was tempted by the evil in our heart, since He bore our sins. In addition to bearing our sins, He took our sinful nature, so He was tempted in all points as we are, including both inherited and cultivated tendencies to evil (the cultivated ones being ours, of course, not His).


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Are we born again with uncrucified sinful habits? [Re: Mountain Man] #104859
11/19/08 02:41 AM
11/19/08 02:41 AM
asygo  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2023

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,583
California, USA
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Quote:
The lower passions have their seat in the body and work through it. The words "flesh" or "fleshly" or "carnal lusts" embrace the lower, corrupt nature; the flesh of itself cannot act contrary to the will of God. We are commanded to crucify the flesh, with the affections and lusts. How shall we do it? Shall we inflict pain on the body? No; but put to death the temptation to sin. The corrupt thought is to be expelled. Every thought is to be brought into captivity to Jesus Christ. All animal propensities are to be subjected to the higher powers of the soul. {AH 127.2}

Do you believe that Jesus had a corrupt nature?

Quote:
Christ took our nature, fallen but not corrupted, and would not be corrupted unless He received the words of Satan in the place of the words of God. {16MR 182.3}


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: Are we born again with uncrucified sinful habits? [Re: Tom] #104860
11/19/08 02:44 AM
11/19/08 02:44 AM
asygo  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2023

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,583
California, USA
Originally Posted By: Tom
Jesus was tempted by the evil in our heart, since He bore our sins. In addition to bearing our sins, He took our sinful nature, so He was tempted in all points as we are, including both inherited and cultivated tendencies to evil (the cultivated ones being ours, of course, not His).

How can Jesus be tempted by MY evil? I did not personally tempt Him. And I certainly do not have the power to transfer my sin/evil to Him.

Did Satan put my sin/evil on Jesus, thereby tempting Him to sin?

Those are the two sources of temptation that we read in MB. Do you believe there are other sources?

And I thought you believe that the suffering which sin brings is a direct result of the sin itself. How can MY sin cause a sinless third party to suffer?


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: Are we born again with uncrucified sinful habits? [Re: asygo] #104862
11/19/08 03:49 AM
11/19/08 03:49 AM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Quote:
How can Jesus be tempted by MY evil? I did not personally tempt Him. And I certainly do not have the power to transfer my sin/evil to Him.


You don't, but God does. Isn't this what you believed happened, that God transferred our sin to Christ?

Quote:
Those are the two sources of temptation that we read in MB. Do you believe there are other sources?


Certainly we are tempted by our flesh, there's no question about that. Did she write that the two sources you mentioned were the only sources of temptation?

Quote:
And I thought you believe that the suffering which sin brings is a direct result of the sin itself. How can MY sin cause a sinless third party to suffer?


All suffering is caused by somebody's sin, but the suffering of a given person is not necessarily caused by the sin of that person. Iow, one person's sin can cause the suffering of another person, which we all know by experience.

All of our sin causes God suffering all of the time. He's a sinless third party.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Are we born again with uncrucified sinful habits? [Re: Tom] #104865
11/19/08 04:57 AM
11/19/08 04:57 AM
asygo  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2023

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,583
California, USA
Originally Posted By: Tom
Quote:
How can Jesus be tempted by MY evil? I did not personally tempt Him. And I certainly do not have the power to transfer my sin/evil to Him.

You don't, but God does. Isn't this what you believed happened, that God transferred our sin to Christ?

I believe God imputed our sins to Christ. But I do not believe God imparted the evil of our hearts to Christ. That would be equivalent to God tempting Christ, and I don't believe God tempts anyone.

Are you saying that God imparted the evil of our hearts to Christ, such that Jesus was constantly fighting against the selfishness within Him? Isn't that tantamount to God tempting Him?

Originally Posted By: Tom
Quote:
Those are the two sources of temptation that we read in MB. Do you believe there are other sources?

Certainly we are tempted by our flesh, there's no question about that. Did she write that the two sources you mentioned were the only sources of temptation?

Flesh, meaning the physical cells that make up our bodies? I'm certain that I'm not certain about that! The flesh, of itself, cannot sin, nor can it be tempted, nor can it tempt. Those things are functions of the mind.

The two sources of temptation are Satan's mind working on ours, and our own evil minds (hearts) generating temptations. There may be physical needs that are twisted by our sinful natures into fleshly lusts that war against the soul, but the temptation happens in the mind.

Read the MB quote again. She said temptation does not come from God. Then, she said temptation comes from Satan and our own evil hearts. She would have been negligent if she left out a major source of temptation. But if you have a quote, I'd like to see it.

Originally Posted By: Tom
Quote:
And I thought you believe that the suffering which sin brings is a direct result of the sin itself. How can MY sin cause a sinless third party to suffer?

All suffering is caused by somebody's sin, but the suffering of a given person is not necessarily caused by the sin of that person. Iow, one person's sin can cause the suffering of another person, which we all know by experience.

All of our sin causes God suffering all of the time. He's a sinless third party.

But we're talking about suffering the temptations of an evil heart because of sin. I don't think my sin will create an evil heart in anyone else, even someone as empathetic as God.

So how does Jesus manage to get an evil heart without committing sin Himself? We go back to considering that God put that evil heart in Him. An unpalatable option, IMO.


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
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