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Here is the link to this week's Sabbath School Lesson Study and Discussion Material: Click Here
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Re: Lesson #9 - Metaphors of SALVATION
[Re: Colin]
#105235
11/27/08 03:27 AM
11/27/08 03:27 AM
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It's our basic morality - ability to die, a material consequence of a spiritual reality: dead in sin, eventually physically die as souls, too. Average lifespan since Eden has steadily dropped, according to lowered life expectancy - God setting the decline precisely. Mortal death is natural for mortals, not so?! - everlasting annihilation is extra. . i dont know if you are answering my question or not since you didnt address it to me, but...:) so, ok. legitimate point. but, after the flood, man had only meat to eat until the reaping and sowing got done, besides whatever natural might have come up on its own. so, was it "natural mortality" that made mens longevity shrink so dramatically so quickly?
Last edited by teresaq; 11/27/08 03:28 AM.
Psa 64:5 ...an evil matter: they commune of laying snares privily; they say, Who shall see them?
Psa 7:14 Behold, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood. 15 He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made. 16 His mischief (and his violent dealing) shall return upon his own head.
Psa 7:17 I will praise the LORD according to his righteousness: and will sing praise to the name of the LORD most high.
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Re: Lesson #9 - Metaphors of SALVATION
[Re: teresaq]
#105248
11/27/08 05:53 PM
11/27/08 05:53 PM
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Teresaq, if I may share a thought. The reason sinners die a slow, gradual first death is because God denies them access to eat of the tree of life. Otherwise, sinners would live forever. Which is not to say they cannot be murdered.
"And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever: therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. So He drove out the man; and He placed at the east of the garden of Eden cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life." (Genesis 3:20)
Thus, the Bible teaches that sin does not kill sinners. Sin is not an active, independent agent that goes around killing sinners. Yes, the results of certain forms of sinning can lead to death. But this isn't true of all sins. For example, if two people love each other and decide to live together without getting married it will not result in death. That is, living in sin in this way will not kill them.
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Re: Lesson #9 - Metaphors of SALVATION
[Re: Mountain Man]
#105258
11/27/08 07:17 PM
11/27/08 07:17 PM
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Teresaq, if I may share a thought. The reason sinners die a slow, gradual first death is because God denies them access to eat of the tree of life. Otherwise, sinners would live forever. Which is not to say they cannot be murdered.
"And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever: therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. So He drove out the man; and He placed at the east of the garden of Eden cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life." (Genesis 3:20)
Thus, the Bible teaches that sin does not kill sinners. Sin is not an active, independent agent that goes around killing sinners. Yes, the results of certain forms of sinning can lead to death. But this isn't true of all sins. For example, if two people love each other and decide to live together without getting married it will not result in death. That is, living in sin in this way will not kill them. so, you dont see a link between eating meat and dying quicker? regarding two people living together foregoing the sanction of the state, did we decide that is a sin or did God? i really dont know, and it could be noone knows for sure in each case. regardless, im sure there would be a feeling of guilt eating at some of them. if sin doesnt kill, then why does God hate it? if we could sin and be happy, is God just arbitrary and going to kill us because He made some arbitrary rules that we're breaking? i find it interesting when i read my bible that "violence" is when God acts. Gen 6:13 And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth. Gen 19:4 But before they lay down, the men of the city, even the men of Sodom, compassed the house round, both old and young, all the people from every quarter: Gen 19:5 And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where are the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them. at the second coming, the wicked surround the righteous wanting to kill them. then they turn on each other and massive slaughter ensues. at the third coming, again the wicked surround the new jerusalem with the intent of conquering, then they turn on each other and massive slaughter ensues. until fire consumes them. so id say sin kills. if we all followed after God, with holy hearts, there would be a fraction of the bloodshed and suffering going on in our world.
Psa 64:5 ...an evil matter: they commune of laying snares privily; they say, Who shall see them?
Psa 7:14 Behold, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood. 15 He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made. 16 His mischief (and his violent dealing) shall return upon his own head.
Psa 7:17 I will praise the LORD according to his righteousness: and will sing praise to the name of the LORD most high.
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Re: Lesson #9 - Metaphors of SALVATION
[Re: teresaq]
#105260
11/27/08 07:31 PM
11/27/08 07:31 PM
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so, was it "natural mortality" that made mens longevity shrink so dramatically so quickly? After the flood the people ate largely of animal food. God saw that the ways of man were corrupt, and that he was disposed to exalt himself proudly against his Creator and to follow the inclinations of his own heart. And He permitted that long-lived race to eat animal food to shorten their sinful lives. Soon after the flood the race began to rapidly decrease in size, and in length of years. {CD 373.3}
After the fall, the eating of flesh was suffered, in order to shorten the period of the existence of the long-lived race. It was allowed because of the hardness of the hearts of men. {TSDF 68.3}
By God's grace,
Arnold
There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
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Re: Lesson #9 - Metaphors of SALVATION
[Re: Mountain Man]
#105292
11/29/08 02:07 AM
11/29/08 02:07 AM
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Teresaq, ..., it is the results of sinning that can lead to suffering and death. ... ok. but i think that is pretty much what i meant when i said sin kills. i dont really think i thought of sin as outside of me attacking me. 
Psa 64:5 ...an evil matter: they commune of laying snares privily; they say, Who shall see them?
Psa 7:14 Behold, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood. 15 He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made. 16 His mischief (and his violent dealing) shall return upon his own head.
Psa 7:17 I will praise the LORD according to his righteousness: and will sing praise to the name of the LORD most high.
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Re: Lesson #9 - Metaphors of SALVATION
[Re: Colin]
#105302
11/29/08 06:48 AM
11/29/08 06:48 AM
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Here's how Waggoner defined "righteousness" In Ps. 119:172 the Psalmist thus addresses the Lord, "My tongue shall speak of Thy word, for all Thy commandments are righteousness." The commandments are righteousness, not simply in the abstract, but they are the righteousness of God. For proof read the following:
Lift up your eyes to the heavens and look upon the earth beneath, for the heavens shall vanish away like smoke and the earth shall wax old like a garment, and they that dwell therein shall die in like manner; but my salvation shall be forever and my righteousness shall not be abolished. Hearken unto me, ye that know righteousness, the people in whose heart is my law; fear ye not the reproach of men, neither be ye afraid of their revilings." Isa. 51:6,7.
What do we learn from this? That they who know the righteousness of God are those in whose heart is His law, and therefore that the law of God is the righteousness of God.
This may be proved again, as follows: "All unrighteousness is sin." 1 John 5:17. "Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law; for sin is the transgression of the law." 1 John 3:4. Sin is the transgression of the law, and it is also unrighteousness; therefore sin and unrighteousness are identical. But if unrighteousness is transgression of the law, righteousness must be obedience to the law. Or, to put the proposition into mathematical form:
Unrighteousness = sin. 1 John 5:17. Transgression of the law = sin. 1 John 3:4.
Therefore, according to the axiom that two things that are equal to the same thing are equal to each other, we have: Unrighteousness = transgression of the law
...which is a negative equation. The same thing, stated in positive terms, would be: Righteousness = obedience to the law. (Christ and His Righteousness) hopefully meaning justification by faith is both legal and the more so experiential I agree with this. Although you and I understand the underlying concepts a bit differently, I think the point you are raising is right on, and a very important one, and your general point here holds regardless of which position one takes (yours or mine). Do you agree with the following? Justification by faith takes place when we believe the Good News? (I'm essentially quoting from Robert J. Wieland). If so, we can agree on this. I would also agree with the idea that our experience is grounded on objective truth, which is a point that Sequeira strongly makes. If J&S are jointly meant by this "righteousness", then it's nothing new and they side-stepped this gem of Gospel power truth despite coming so close to stating it. I didn't follow your point here. Please repeat it, as it looks like it could be interesting. Does hinge on Christ taking sinful humanity for us to have this experience of justification by faith. I assume you meant this as an assertion, and just left out the "It" before "does." Assuming this is the case, I agree.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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