There is no reason to suppose that things would work differently for them than for the hundreds of people of whom we do have a registry. Ellen White explains the principle:





This is hardly support for the idea that the principles Ellen White laid out in 1SM 235 should not be considered! Let's consider being who acted similarly of whom there is a record.

Judas is such a one. He had even greater light than Ananias and Sapphira, having walked for several years with the Light Himself. Judas, even before knowing Christ, had the same ill traits of character that he demonstrated afterwords. He rejected every effort of Christ to save him, and the principles of 1SM 235 played themselves out, until Judas betrayed Christ and killed himself. If we had a record of the life of Ananias and Sapphira, I'm sure we would find that their covetous was nothing new, nor their rejection of the wooing of the Holy Spirit.

God is not willing that any of His creatures should perish. He does all He can to save them. It's not easy to be lost:



Regarding Lucifer's fall, we have a lot of information.



This brings out that Lucifer was perfect until iniquity was found in him. This is a long time before he had fully made up his mind to rebel no matter what.

Notice it is written that what happened to Lucifer happened "little by little." So what we have is the following

a.Lucifer indulged a spirit of self-exaltation
b.Lucifer sought to win the homage of God's creatures for himself, instead of leading them to honor God, which was his duty.
c.Lucifer aspired to the power that was Christ's prerogative alone.

So we see Lucifer slipping into a pit of his own making, little by little.

Continuing on we read:



Here we see the same desire for self-exaltation, the same purpose of winning the homage of God's creatures. We see that he used deception to attain his purposes.

Then we read this comment:



This continues to bring out that Lucifer's fall was a gradual one. It was something which happened "little by little." We see that God "bore long" with Lucifer, that "long was he retained in heaven."

Now, of course, there must come some point where a person goes from the point of being able to repent and return to God and no longer being able to do so. Eventually the hardening of the heart reaches the point to where it's no longer possible to response to the wooings of the Holy Spirit. Lucifer gradually, eventually, after a long time, reached this point.

This was not a case of Lucifer doing one thing wrong, one rebellious or defiant act, and that was that. The evidence in no way supports this idea. Instead what we see is that Lucifer persisted in the same course of action, his rebellion, and that this rebellion continued to bloom until it reached full flower.

That Lucifer was acting defiantly before his final defiant act is clearly seen:



The underlined portion underscored Lucifer's defiance. Lucifer was told exactly what he was doing, and what the consequences of his actions would be. Yet he "allowed jealousy" to prevail, and became more determined, or defiant. Continuing on:



Another defiant act. Continuing:



Finally we come to the quote mentioned above, which points out that God long bore with Lucifer, and was offered pardon again and again.

Looking at the overall picture Ellen White portrays, we see that Lucifer fell little by little, that he was warned not to continue on, that he was told what would happen if he did, and that he continued to indulge the same spirit of self-exaltation and jealousy. We see there was an actual fight within himself to yield to the wooings of the Holy Spirit, and that He chose not to respond.

This is a classic example of the unpardonable sin!



This is just a little before the statement above that unutterable love thrilled his soul.

Here's a similar account in regards to Judas:



We see the same principles at work. The tender love of God. "How can I give thee up." We see that constraining love was felt by both Judas and Lucifer. We see the heart and soul of both thrilling to that love. We see a struggle in both, that both felt a strong desire to confess their sin. And we see that both refused to humble themselves.

In both Judas and Lucifer the fall was a long, gradual one, eventually reaching the point to where it was no longer possible for them to return.

In conclusion, we see the same principles at work in Lucifer's fall as what EGW laid out in 1SM 235. Lucifer's fall was a gradual one. Lucifer indulged a spirit of jealousy, of self-exaltation many times, and each time he did so, it made it easier for to do so again, just as 1SM 235 explains. Eventually he brought ruin upon himself, by cutting himself off from God, again just as 1SM 235 explains.

I suspect Lucifer knew God more intimately, more thoroughly than will the 144,000. The description of the 144,000 in the GC indicates some of them barely make it through Jacob's time of trouble.

Does this mean no? That is, you are saying that the 144,000 are not less likely to sin than Lucifer was?

What description is it that makes you think that some of the 144,000 will barely make it through?

I think the 144,000 will know God better than Lucifer did. This is rather an interesting question to consider.

Lucifer knew God perfectly for who knows how many hundreds of years. I have no doubt he knew God better than the 144,000 will know God by the time they begin experiencing JTOT. He knew God so well that there was nothing else God could do to woo and win him back. Can the same thing be said of the 144,000?

"God's love for His children during the period of their severest trial is as strong and tender as in the days of their sunniest prosperity; but it is needful for them to be placed in the furnace of fire; their earthliness must be consumed, that the image of Christ may be perfectly reflected. {GC 621.1}

"Those who exercise but little faith now, are in the greatest danger of falling under the power of satanic delusions and the decree to compel the conscience. And even if they endure the test they will be plunged into deeper distress and anguish in the time of trouble, because they have never made it a habit to trust in God. The lessons of faith which they have neglected they will be forced to learn under a terrible pressure of discouragement. {GC 622.1}

I don't think this is the case, if by knowing God better you mean closeness of fellowship. Is this what you have in mind? Or are you thinking of just knowing things about Him?



This seems like an apples and oranges question. For one thing, the 144,000 will not need to be wooed and won back, since they are loyal to God.


I think I figured out why you included those quotes from the GC in regards to the 144,000. (It would be easier to follow your train of thought if you put some sort of explanation to go along with the quotes you provide.) I think it's in answer to my question as to why you think some of the 144,000 will just barely make it through. I don't see anything in those quotes which imply this, if I've guess correctly in regards to why you included these quotes.

Yes, I posted those quotes in answer to your question. Sorry I forgot to say so.

Did Lucifer, before he sinned and rebelled, need to have his "earthliness . . . consumed, that the image of Christ may be perfectly reflected"? Some of the 144,000 will need it. Can it be said of Lucifer that he "never made it a habit to trust in God"? It will be said of some of the 144,000. It will also be said of some of the 144,000 that "the lessons of faith which they have neglected they will be forced to learn under a terrible pressure of discouragement." This was not true in Lucifer's case.

The point is - I believe Lucifer loved and served God for hundreds, perhaps thousands, of years before he sinned and rebelled. During that time I am quite certain he developed a relationship and intimacy with God that will take the 144,000 hundreds, perhaps thousands, of years to duplicate. Whatever the case, it is true that not all of the 144,000 will be spiritual giants more than those who will come up in the first resurrection. Many of them will have a greater faith, a more mature faith, and a more intimate relationship with Jesus.

At any rate, my actual question has to do with when you think Lucifer committed the unpardonable sin. You seem to think it was after sinning in heaven for a long time. You wrote, "Eventually the hardening of the heart reaches the point to where it's no longer possible to response to the wooings of the Holy Spirit. Lucifer gradually, eventually, after a long time, reached this point."

Paul wrote about another way people can commit the unpardonable sin. Listen:

Hebrews
6:4 For [it is] impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put [him] to an open shame.

Hebrews
10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

IOW, people can reach a point in their walk and relationship with Jesus that to sin afterward would be to commit the unpardonable sin. Surely Lucifer reached this point in heaven, which is why there was no provision to save him should he venture to sin. The same thing is true of the 144,000. They will reach a point where they cannot sin without committing the unpardonable sin. They will not require years of sinning before they become too sin hardened to repent. The same thing is true of unfallen FMAs throughout God's vast universe.

Yes, I think it was after a long time, because EGW wrote that God bore with Lucifer a long time, offering him pardon again and again.

I think what Paul is speaking about in Hebrews is exactly the same thing I'm saying. A person is not lost after one bad action, no matter how close they are to God. Moses is a perfect example of this.

Ellen White pointed out that it is not the occasional good deed or misdeed that reveals the character, but the trend of the life. Even though Moses sinned at a time when he was perhaps closer to God than anyone else every has been (excluding Christ), he wasn't lost because he did so. He simply repented, and was forgiven. Had he persisted in sin, then eventually he would have hardened his heart to the point to where God could no longer have cured him, just like anyone else.



No, the evidence suggests otherwise. In addition to Moses, David was one who walked after God's own heart. He also sinned, doing terrible things, far worse than Moses, but his sin was pardoned, because he repented.

The only way a person can commit an unpardonable sin is to commit a sin for which he refuses to repent. This involves a gradually hardening of the heart.

Don't you think it means people reach a point where they are incapable of repenting? Refusing to repent implies they are capable of repenting but just don't want to. There is hope as long as they are capable of repenting.

A&E would have died in the day they sinned had God not implemented the plan of salvation. Therefore, one sin is enough to qualify as unpardonable. The reasons A&E were pardonable is twofold: 1) Jesus paid the sin debt of death, and 2) A&E were capable of repenting.

Also, do you think it's theoretically possible for the 144,000 to sin and repent after probation closes, after Jesus ceases mediating in the sanctuary? And, do you think the same thing is possible for unfallen FMAs?

To those who saw the glory of God on Sinai, a willful violation of the law was punishable with death – which means that their sin was unforgivable (because a willful violation on those circumstances meant contempt for the authority of God and nothing could be able to move these people to repentance).

Would you say that the example of what happened to that person who knowingly, willingly, and rebelliously broke the Sabbath and his resulting death by stoning was a symbol of a person who commits the unpardonable sin, which in so doing there isn't any atonement?