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Re: Did Satan intend to kill Christ....? [Re: Mountain Man] #105847
12/09/08 01:18 PM
12/09/08 01:18 PM
Rick H  Offline
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Florida, USA
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Richard, consider the fact Jesus bore the weight of the sins of the world within Himself all of His life - not just at the end of His life. In the wilderness of temptation He suffered for our sins in a way very similar to Gethsemane and the Golgotha. Notwithstanding, Jesus tasted, consumed, and conquered our sin and second death on the cross. See quotes above. "Christ did not yield up His life till He had accomplished the work which He came to do, and with His parting breath He exclaimed, "It is finished." John 19:30. Satan, not Jesus, will die the second death with the sins of the saved. It was the scapegoat, not the Lord's goat, that died with the sins of the saved.


The weight of sin was not put upon Jesus till He was fully prepared to suffer the consequences, thus when Judas left and Christ told him to do what He knew was betrayal, He was going into this phase of His ministry. But as the full impact of this was being poured out in the garden of Gethsemena, Christ asked that this cup be taken from Him, or another way found, but there wasnt and thus the Father had to withdraw and eventually sunder Himself from Christ as the sin was pour out and borne by Jesus.

Last edited by Richard; 12/09/08 01:19 PM.
Re: Did Satan intend to kill Christ....? [Re: Tom] #105944
12/11/08 03:24 PM
12/11/08 03:24 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Southwest USA
Originally Posted By: Tom
MM, there's no contradiction between Acts 2, and other inspired texts which say Christ was killed, and the texts you quoted. The Bible does not contradict itself. Christ allowed Himself to be killed.

What if no one had rejected Jesus, what if everyone lovingly embraced Him as their personal Savior - then what? How would Jesus have paid our sin debt of death? Would God have commanded them to nail Jesus to the cross? Would God have sacrificed Him? Or, would Jesus need not have died?

Re: Did Satan intend to kill Christ....? [Re: Mountain Man] #105945
12/11/08 04:04 PM
12/11/08 04:04 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Richard, Jesus was born with the sins of the world. He was made sin for us. He bore them about in His body from the cradle to the cross. True, He did not begin to pay our sin debt of death until Gethsemane, nevertheless, sin tormented Him throughout His entire life. He "suffered being tempted". (Heb 2:18)

In the wilderness of temptation, the glory of God departed and left Jesus to do battle alone with Satan. This separation and encounter with sin and Satan was similar to what Jesus went through on the cross but for very different reasons. Jesus suffered daily bearing about the sins of the world in His body but it wasn't until Gethsemane and the cross did He also endure the wrath of God against sin.

2 Corinthians
5:21 For he hath made him [to be] sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

1 Peter
2:21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:
2:22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:
2:23 Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed [himself] to him that judgeth righteously:
2:24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

"When Jesus entered the wilderness, He was shut in by the Father's glory. Absorbed in communion with God, He was lifted above human weakness. But the glory departed, and He was left to battle with temptation. It was pressing upon Him every moment. His human nature shrank from the conflict that awaited Him. {DA 118.1}

"After the foe had departed, Jesus fell exhausted to the earth, with the pallor of death upon His face. The angels of heaven had watched the conflict, beholding their loved Commander as He passed through inexpressible suffering to make a way of escape for us. He had endured the test, greater than we shall ever be called to endure. The angels now ministered to the Son of God as He lay like one dying. He was strengthened with food, comforted with the message of His Father's love and the assurance that all heaven triumphed in His victory. {DA 131.1}

"Christ bore the penalty of sin, the stroke of divine justice, that human beings might not be left to perish. He bore in His body the sentence pronounced against sinners. This is the science of salvation, which can safely be searched into, and which it is profitable to strive to understand. {UL 196.5}

Re: Did Satan intend to kill Christ....? [Re: Mountain Man] #105980
12/12/08 04:52 AM
12/12/08 04:52 AM
teresaq  Offline
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Posts: 1,984
CA, USA
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Richard, Jesus was born with the sins of the world. He was made sin for us. He bore them about in His body from the cradle to the cross. True, He did not begin to pay our sin debt of death until Gethsemane, nevertheless, sin tormented Him throughout His entire life. He "suffered being tempted". (Heb 2:18)

In the wilderness of temptation, the glory of God departed and left Jesus to do battle alone with Satan. This separation and encounter with sin and Satan was similar to what Jesus went through on the cross but for very different reasons. Jesus suffered daily bearing about the sins of the world in His body but it wasn't until Gethsemane and the cross did He also endure the wrath of God against sin.

2 Corinthians
5:21 For he hath made him [to be] sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

1 Peter
2:21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:
2:22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:
2:23 Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed [himself] to him that judgeth righteously:
2:24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

"When Jesus entered the wilderness, He was shut in by the Father's glory. Absorbed in communion with God, He was lifted above human weakness. But the glory departed, and He was left to battle with temptation. It was pressing upon Him every moment. His human nature shrank from the conflict that awaited Him. {DA 118.1}

"After the foe had departed, Jesus fell exhausted to the earth, with the pallor of death upon His face. The angels of heaven had watched the conflict, beholding their loved Commander as He passed through inexpressible suffering to make a way of escape for us. He had endured the test, greater than we shall ever be called to endure. The angels now ministered to the Son of God as He lay like one dying. He was strengthened with food, comforted with the message of His Father's love and the assurance that all heaven triumphed in His victory. {DA 131.1}

"Christ bore the penalty of sin, the stroke of divine justice, that human beings might not be left to perish. He bore in His body the sentence pronounced against sinners. This is the science of salvation, which can safely be searched into, and which it is profitable to strive to understand. {UL 196.5}


i keep hearing that Christ bore our sins from birth til.....

but that isnt what this seems to say.

The guilt of fallen humanity He must bear. Upon Him who knew no sin must be laid the iniquity of us all. So dreadful does sin appear to Him, so great is the weight of guilt which He must bear, that He is tempted to fear it will shut Him out forever from His Father's love. Feeling how terrible is the wrath of God against transgression, He exclaims, "My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death." {DA 685.2}

how could it be laid on Him if it was already there?


Psa 64:5 ...an evil matter: they commune of laying snares privily; they say, Who shall see them?

Psa 7:14 Behold, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood. 15 He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made. 16 His mischief (and his violent dealing) shall return upon his own head.

Psa 7:17 I will praise the LORD according to his righteousness: and will sing praise to the name of the LORD most high.
Re: Did Satan intend to kill Christ....? [Re: teresaq] #106004
12/13/08 01:22 AM
12/13/08 01:22 AM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
From what I've read and learned, and I could, of course, be mistaken, Jesus bore our sins in His body from birth, but He didn't begin experiencing the penalty for sin until He entered the garden of Gethsemane. That's when our iniquities were laid upon. It's one thing to bear our burden of sin, it's quite another thing to pay our penalty for sin.

Re: Did Satan intend to kill Christ....? [Re: Mountain Man] #106006
12/13/08 01:49 AM
12/13/08 01:49 AM
teresaq  Offline
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Very Dedicated Member
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,984
CA, USA
are there any bible or sop statements to that effect? i cant really remember having seen any. i cant say i have ever had reason to think about it, but when i hear it said i wrack my brain trying to think of an instance where it was even implied that He had our sins from His birth.


Psa 64:5 ...an evil matter: they commune of laying snares privily; they say, Who shall see them?

Psa 7:14 Behold, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood. 15 He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made. 16 His mischief (and his violent dealing) shall return upon his own head.

Psa 7:17 I will praise the LORD according to his righteousness: and will sing praise to the name of the LORD most high.
Re: Did Satan intend to kill Christ....? [Re: teresaq] #106012
12/13/08 06:00 PM
12/13/08 06:00 PM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Hi, Teresa,

I don't have much time just now, but here, for instance, Ellen White is speaking about the temptations in the wilderness. I'm not sure, however about "from birth."

"It was not the gnawing pangs of hunger alone which made the sufferings of our Redeemer so inexpressibly severe. It was the sense of guilt which had resulted from the indulgence of appetite that had brought such terrible woe into the world, which pressed so heavily upon His divine soul. . . . {AG 164.4}

"With man's nature, and the terrible weight of his sins pressing upon Him, our Redeemer withstood the power of Satan upon this great leading temptation, which imperils the souls of men. If man should overcome this temptation, he could conquer on every other point." {AG 164.5}

Re: Did Satan intend to kill Christ....? [Re: Rosangela] #106024
12/13/08 09:14 PM
12/13/08 09:14 PM
teresaq  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2024

Very Dedicated Member
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,984
CA, USA
in other words we dont really understand just what was going on and when and how it all happened.

we have only the most superficial understanding. i have been convicted!

Last edited by teresaq; 12/13/08 09:15 PM.

Psa 64:5 ...an evil matter: they commune of laying snares privily; they say, Who shall see them?

Psa 7:14 Behold, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood. 15 He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made. 16 His mischief (and his violent dealing) shall return upon his own head.

Psa 7:17 I will praise the LORD according to his righteousness: and will sing praise to the name of the LORD most high.
Re: Did Satan intend to kill Christ....? [Re: Mountain Man] #106031
12/14/08 12:25 AM
12/14/08 12:25 AM
Rick H  Offline
OP
Group: Admin Team
3000+ Member
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,126
Florida, USA
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Richard, Jesus was born with the sins of the world. He was made sin for us. He bore them about in His body from the cradle to the cross. True, He did not begin to pay our sin debt of death until Gethsemane, nevertheless, sin tormented Him throughout His entire life. He "suffered being tempted". (Heb 2:18)

In the wilderness of temptation, the glory of God departed and left Jesus to do battle alone with Satan. This separation and encounter with sin and Satan was similar to what Jesus went through on the cross but for very different reasons. Jesus suffered daily bearing about the sins of the world in His body but it wasn't until Gethsemane and the cross did He also endure the wrath of God against sin.

2 Corinthians
5:21 For he hath made him [to be] sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

1 Peter
2:21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:
2:22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:
2:23 Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed [himself] to him that judgeth righteously:
2:24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

"When Jesus entered the wilderness, He was shut in by the Father's glory. Absorbed in communion with God, He was lifted above human weakness. But the glory departed, and He was left to battle with temptation. It was pressing upon Him every moment. His human nature shrank from the conflict that awaited Him. {DA 118.1}

"After the foe had departed, Jesus fell exhausted to the earth, with the pallor of death upon His face. The angels of heaven had watched the conflict, beholding their loved Commander as He passed through inexpressible suffering to make a way of escape for us. He had endured the test, greater than we shall ever be called to endure. The angels now ministered to the Son of God as He lay like one dying. He was strengthened with food, comforted with the message of His Father's love and the assurance that all heaven triumphed in His victory. {DA 131.1}

"Christ bore the penalty of sin, the stroke of divine justice, that human beings might not be left to perish. He bore in His body the sentence pronounced against sinners. This is the science of salvation, which can safely be searched into, and which it is profitable to strive to understand. {UL 196.5}


Ok, MM, I will put it this way...

Suppose you had a twin, and he went and committed a crime that when judged would result in his death according to the law. As soon as it was committed you would bear the penalty as you are brothers with the same family, the shame would be on both of you, more on him as the guilty party. But if you went and presented yourself in his place, then the full weight of his 'crime' would be put upon your shoulders. You would have to suffer for what your brother did, and be judged as guilty for his crime.

This is what happened at the garden of Gethsemena, Christ accepted the cup and the consequences which was our sin of which the wages was death. Up to that point he could have refused the cup that was before him, but he didnt. At that moment the weight of our sins were poured out on him and the seperation from God because of sin caused the terrible suffering and ultimately the death of Christ.

As horrible as His physical suffering was, it was nothing compared to the spiritual suffering He went through. 2 Corinthians 5:21, "God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God." Jesus had the weight of the sins of the entire world put on Him (1 John 2:2). It was sin and the subsequent withdrawal and seperation from God the Father that caused Jesus to cry out, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" (Matthew 27:46). So, as brutal as Jesus' physical suffering was, it was nothing compared to His having to bear our sins - and die for our sins (Romans 5:8).

Last edited by Richard; 12/14/08 12:26 AM.
Re: Did Satan intend to kill Christ....? [Re: Rick H] #106042
12/14/08 06:23 AM
12/14/08 06:23 AM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
MM, how can you say on the one hand that Christ bore our sins in His body since birth, and on the other that our iniquity was not laid upon Him until Gethsemane? Iniquity is sin. To say our iniquity was laid upon Him is to say He was bearing our sin.

Matt. 8:17 applies Isa. 53 to Christ's ministry, well before Gethsemane. Rosangela also quoted some SOP statements dealing with the temptation in the wilderness.

Regarding His bearing our sin since birth, I agree with you there, and Gal. 4:4 is a Scripture reference which bears this out.


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