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Re: Did Satan intend to kill Christ....? [Re: Rick H] #106204
12/17/08 06:29 PM
12/17/08 06:29 PM
Tom  Offline
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Quote:
I have to disagree, as the lamb did not take away sin till the sacrifice, that is made clear in the instructions and why the ceremonies were laid out so detailed.


You look to be disagreeing on the basis of ideas you already hold, but these ideas look very clearly to not agree with the facts I've presented. In this case, I think it's a good idea to keep an open mind to adjust one's ideas on the basis of the facts, and not reject out of hand facts which have been presented because they do not agree with one's ideas.

Quote:
I don't think our salvation depends on this point of when the sins were put on Christ, so lets leave it for now till we have time to study it and maybe some more from others who may have something specific and see if it is made clearer.


1.If you don't wish to discuss this, that's fine, but when are we going to have more time to study this? Also regarding the comment that our salvation doesn't depend on the point when Christ began to bear our sin, I think this is wrong. If Christ had not been bearing our sin the whole time, we would have been lost. Here's a comment by Waggoner:

Quote:
The sacrifice of Christ, so far as this world is concerned, dates from the foundation of the world. While Christ was going about doing good in Judea and Galilee, He was in the bosom of the Father making reconciliation for the sins of the world.

The scene on Calvary was the manifestation of what has taken place as long as sin has existed, and will take place until every man is saved who is willing to be saved: Christ bearing the sins of the world. He bears them now. One act of death and resurrection was sufficient for all time, for it is eternal life that we are considering; therefore, it is not necessary for the sacrifice to be repeated. That life pervades and upholds all things, so that whoever accepts it by faith has all the benefit of the entire sacrifice of Christ. By Himself He "made purification of sins." Whoever rejects the life, or is unwilling to acknowledge that the life which he has is Christ's life, loses, of course, the benefit of the sacrifice. (The Glad Tidings)


2.John 1:29 is clear. The correct translation is the gerund, as Young's Literal Translation has, and the word translated "taking away," can be translated "bearing," which I think is an easier concept to understand. This corresponds to Waggoner's point.

Matt. 8:17 is also clear. He is referencing Isa. 53; there's no question about that, and this is well before Christ's death on the cross.

3.God drew near Christ at the cross. He and holy angels were with Christ at the cross.

I think we need to keep an open mind when considering Calvary. It's such a profound subject. An important reason I have these discussions is because the points made by others helps me to understand things better.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Did Satan intend to kill Christ....? [Re: Tom] #106245
12/18/08 01:25 PM
12/18/08 01:25 PM
Rick H  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Tom
Quote:
I have to disagree, as the lamb did not take away sin till the sacrifice, that is made clear in the instructions and why the ceremonies were laid out so detailed.


You look to be disagreeing on the basis of ideas you already hold, but these ideas look very clearly to not agree with the facts I've presented. In this case, I think it's a good idea to keep an open mind to adjust one's ideas on the basis of the facts, and not reject out of hand facts which have been presented because they do not agree with one's ideas.

Quote:
I don't think our salvation depends on this point of when the sins were put on Christ, so lets leave it for now till we have time to study it and maybe some more from others who may have something specific and see if it is made clearer.


1.If you don't wish to discuss this, that's fine, but when are we going to have more time to study this? Also regarding the comment that our salvation doesn't depend on the point when Christ began to bear our sin, I think this is wrong. If Christ had not been bearing our sin the whole time, we would have been lost. Here's a comment by Waggoner:

Quote:
The sacrifice of Christ, so far as this world is concerned, dates from the foundation of the world. While Christ was going about doing good in Judea and Galilee, He was in the bosom of the Father making reconciliation for the sins of the world.

The scene on Calvary was the manifestation of what has taken place as long as sin has existed, and will take place until every man is saved who is willing to be saved: Christ bearing the sins of the world. He bears them now. One act of death and resurrection was sufficient for all time, for it is eternal life that we are considering; therefore, it is not necessary for the sacrifice to be repeated. That life pervades and upholds all things, so that whoever accepts it by faith has all the benefit of the entire sacrifice of Christ. By Himself He "made purification of sins." Whoever rejects the life, or is unwilling to acknowledge that the life which he has is Christ's life, loses, of course, the benefit of the sacrifice. (The Glad Tidings)


2.John 1:29 is clear. The correct translation is the gerund, as Young's Literal Translation has, and the word translated "taking away," can be translated "bearing," which I think is an easier concept to understand. This corresponds to Waggoner's point.

Matt. 8:17 is also clear. He is referencing Isa. 53; there's no question about that, and this is well before Christ's death on the cross.

3.God drew near Christ at the cross. He and holy angels were with Christ at the cross.

I think we need to keep an open mind when considering Calvary. It's such a profound subject. An important reason I have these discussions is because the points made by others helps me to understand things better.


Tom,

We all have to be humble and wait for God to show us when things are maybe a bit unclear or veiled. It is not what I have locked in as I am only going by what I read in scripture but granted I may be missing something. So thus if there is or others have a better understanding then let them show us so we all may be enlighthened. But its what is shown through the ceremonies given to the Jews, if you ask any Jew they will tell you the process. So why would God for centuries tell them one way then change it for another, got to go with the process simply given.....

Lets wait and see what can be brought to light and pray that the Spirit leads our study so we can all agree that is the best explanation and understanding.

Rick

Last edited by Richard; 12/18/08 05:58 PM.
Re: Did Satan intend to kill Christ....? [Re: Rick H] #106249
12/18/08 07:21 PM
12/18/08 07:21 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Rick, no Jew looked at the sacrifices, and thought, "These sacrifices are necessary so that God can legally pardon me."

I agree completely with your comment that God wouldn't tell them one way then change it for another.

Here's an SOP comment regarding the meaning of the sacrifices:

Quote:
While God has desired to teach men that from His own love comes the Gift which reconciles them to Himself, the archenemy of mankind has endeavored to represent God as one who delights in their destruction. Thus the sacrifices and the ordinances designed of Heaven to reveal divine love have been perverted to serve as means whereby sinners have vainly hoped to propitiate, with gifts and good works, the wrath of an offended God. (PK 685)


The sacrifice reconciles us to God.

Quote:
For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God. (1 Pet. 3:18)


This was always the meaning of the sacrifice. From the point of view of the one offering the sacrifice, it was a means of dedication:

Quote:
I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. (Rom. 12:1)


The same thought is presented throughout the OT. For example:

Quote:
6Wherewith shall I come before the LORD, and bow myself before the high God? shall I come before him with burnt offerings, with calves of a year old?

7Will the LORD be pleased with thousands of rams, or with ten thousands of rivers of oil? shall I give my firstborn for my transgression, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul?

8He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God? (Micah 6)


From the point of view of God (i.e., God as the one giving the sacrifice), the sacrifice was given as the means by which man could be reconciled, or drawn back, to Him. The offered of the sacrifice could put himself in God's place, whereupon the offering of the sacrifice represented giving up something of value, for the one loved. This is the real idea being presented, that God gave all He had for our benefit, self-sacrificing love at it's highest.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Did Satan intend to kill Christ....? [Re: Tom] #106256
12/18/08 11:26 PM
12/18/08 11:26 PM
Rick H  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,126
Florida, USA
Originally Posted By: Tom
Rick, no Jew looked at the sacrifices, and thought, "These sacrifices are necessary so that God can legally pardon me."

I agree completely with your comment that God wouldn't tell them one way then change it for another.

Here's an SOP comment regarding the meaning of the sacrifices:

Quote:
While God has desired to teach men that from His own love comes the Gift which reconciles them to Himself, the archenemy of mankind has endeavored to represent God as one who delights in their destruction. Thus the sacrifices and the ordinances designed of Heaven to reveal divine love have been perverted to serve as means whereby sinners have vainly hoped to propitiate, with gifts and good works, the wrath of an offended God. (PK 685)


The sacrifice reconciles us to God.

Quote:
For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God. (1 Pet. 3:18)


This was always the meaning of the sacrifice. From the point of view of the one offering the sacrifice, it was a means of dedication:

Quote:
I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. (Rom. 12:1)


The same thought is presented throughout the OT. For example:

Quote:
6Wherewith shall I come before the LORD, and bow myself before the high God? shall I come before him with burnt offerings, with calves of a year old?

7Will the LORD be pleased with thousands of rams, or with ten thousands of rivers of oil? shall I give my firstborn for my transgression, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul?

8He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God? (Micah 6)


From the point of view of God (i.e., God as the one giving the sacrifice), the sacrifice was given as the means by which man could be reconciled, or drawn back, to Him. The offered of the sacrifice could put himself in God's place, whereupon the offering of the sacrifice represented giving up something of value, for the one loved. This is the real idea being presented, that God gave all He had for our benefit, self-sacrificing love at it's highest.


Tom,

There is no reason to struggle with this issue. Lets look to see what we can find on issue as a group and set self aside, as the ceremonies in scriptures clearly point to when the sin was placed. If there is something that shows us a different time, then lets all study and find it. I am sure as a group we can with the Holy Spirits guidance find and bring what is needed for understanding, that is the best way so all may gain from it.

Rick

Re: Did Satan intend to kill Christ....? [Re: Rick H] #106262
12/19/08 12:41 AM
12/19/08 12:41 AM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Quote:
There is no reason to struggle with this issue. Lets look to see what we can find on issue as a group and set self aside, as the ceremonies in scriptures clearly point to when the sin was placed.


I agree. Christ was "born of a woman, born under the law."

Quote:
Being born of a woman, Christ was necessarily born under the law, for such is the condition of all mankind, and "in all things it behooved Him to be made like unto His brethren, that He might be a merciful and faithful High Priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people." Heb.2:17. He takes everything on Himself. "He hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows." "Himself took our infirmities, and bare our disease." Matt.8:17, R.V. "All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on Him the iniquity of us all."

He redeems us by coming into our place literally, and taking our load off our shoulders. "Him who knew no sin He made to be sin on our behalf; that we might become the righteousness of God in Him." 2Cor.5:21, R.V. In the fullest sense of the word, and to a degree that is seldom thought of when the expression is used, He became man's substitute. That is, He permeates our being, identifying Himself so fully with us that everything that touches or affects us touches and affects Him.

He is not our substitute in the sense that one man is a substitute for another, in the army, for instance, the substitute being in one place, while the one for whom he is substitute is somewhere else, engaged in some other service. No; Christ's substitution is far different. He is our substitute in that He substitutes Himself for us, and we appear no more. We drop out entirely, so that it is "not I, but Christ." Thus we cast our cares on Him, not by picking them up and with an effort throwing them on Him, but by humbling ourselves into the nothingness that we are, so that we leave the burden resting on Him alone. Thus we see already how it is that He came. (The Glad Tidings)


I included this whole comment, because I liked it, but it's the first paragraph which especially touches on the point as to when Christ began bearing our sin as a human being. Interestingly, Waggoner cited the same verse, Matt. 8:17, that I did.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Did Satan intend to kill Christ....? [Re: Tom] #106270
12/19/08 01:44 PM
12/19/08 01:44 PM
Rick H  Offline
OP
Group: Admin Team
3000+ Member
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,126
Florida, USA
Tom,

I think we should let everyone pitch in on the issue and lets see where it leads, that usually works best on studying a issue like this...

Rick

Last edited by Richard; 12/19/08 01:48 PM.
Re: Did Satan intend to kill Christ....? [Re: Rick H] #106373
12/22/08 04:55 PM
12/22/08 04:55 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Originally Posted By: Richard
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Richard, Jesus was born with the sins of the world. He was made sin for us. He bore them about in His body from the cradle to the cross. True, He did not begin to pay our sin debt of death until Gethsemane, nevertheless, sin tormented Him throughout His entire life. He "suffered being tempted". (Heb 2:18)

In the wilderness of temptation, the glory of God departed and left Jesus to do battle alone with Satan. This separation and encounter with sin and Satan was similar to what Jesus went through on the cross but for very different reasons. Jesus suffered daily bearing about the sins of the world in His body but it wasn't until Gethsemane and the cross did He also endure the wrath of God against sin.

2 Corinthians
5:21 For he hath made him [to be] sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

1 Peter
2:21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:
2:22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:
2:23 Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed [himself] to him that judgeth righteously:
2:24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

"When Jesus entered the wilderness, He was shut in by the Father's glory. Absorbed in communion with God, He was lifted above human weakness. But the glory departed, and He was left to battle with temptation. It was pressing upon Him every moment. His human nature shrank from the conflict that awaited Him. {DA 118.1}

"After the foe had departed, Jesus fell exhausted to the earth, with the pallor of death upon His face. The angels of heaven had watched the conflict, beholding their loved Commander as He passed through inexpressible suffering to make a way of escape for us. He had endured the test, greater than we shall ever be called to endure. The angels now ministered to the Son of God as He lay like one dying. He was strengthened with food, comforted with the message of His Father's love and the assurance that all heaven triumphed in His victory. {DA 131.1}

"Christ bore the penalty of sin, the stroke of divine justice, that human beings might not be left to perish. He bore in His body the sentence pronounced against sinners. This is the science of salvation, which can safely be searched into, and which it is profitable to strive to understand. {UL 196.5}

Ok, MM, I will put it this way...

Suppose you had a twin, and he went and committed a crime that when judged would result in his death according to the law. As soon as it was committed you would bear the penalty as you are brothers with the same family, the shame would be on both of you, more on him as the guilty party. But if you went and presented yourself in his place, then the full weight of his 'crime' would be put upon your shoulders. You would have to suffer for what your brother did, and be judged as guilty for his crime.

This is what happened at the garden of Gethsemena, Christ accepted the cup and the consequences which was our sin of which the wages was death. Up to that point he could have refused the cup that was before him, but he didnt. At that moment the weight of our sins were poured out on him and the seperation from God because of sin caused the terrible suffering and ultimately the death of Christ.

As horrible as His physical suffering was, it was nothing compared to the spiritual suffering He went through. 2 Corinthians 5:21, "God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God." Jesus had the weight of the sins of the entire world put on Him (1 John 2:2). It was sin and the subsequent withdrawal and seperation from God the Father that caused Jesus to cry out, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" (Matthew 27:46). So, as brutal as Jesus' physical suffering was, it was nothing compared to His having to bear our sins - and die for our sins (Romans 5:8).

Richard, I agree with you that Jesus became sin for us, that He bore our sins in His body, that He endured the wrath of God against the sins of the world on our behalf.

However, what do you make of the following insights:

"It was not the gnawing pangs of hunger alone which made the sufferings of our Redeemer so inexpressibly severe. It was the sense of guilt which had resulted from the indulgence of appetite that had brought such terrible woe into the world, which pressed so heavily upon His divine soul. . . . {AG 164.4}

"With man's nature, and the terrible weight of his sins pressing upon Him, our Redeemer withstood the power of Satan upon this great leading temptation, which imperils the souls of men. If man should overcome this temptation, he could conquer on every other point." {AG 164.5}

Re: Did Satan intend to kill Christ....? [Re: Tom] #106374
12/22/08 05:05 PM
12/22/08 05:05 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Originally Posted By: Tom
MM, how can you say on the one hand that Christ bore our sins in His body since birth, and on the other that our iniquity was not laid upon Him until Gethsemane? Iniquity is sin. To say our iniquity was laid upon Him is to say He was bearing our sin.

Matt. 8:17 applies Isa. 53 to Christ's ministry, well before Gethsemane. Rosangela also quoted some SOP statements dealing with the temptation in the wilderness.

Regarding His bearing our sin since birth, I agree with you there, and Gal. 4:4 is a Scripture reference which bears this out.

Perhaps the difference had to do with what the Father did. For example, when the Father treated Jesus as sinner, He felt the wrath of God against sin. Even during His final scenes, the agony of soul He felt in Gethsemane let up a bit, only to return later on.

Re: Did Satan intend to kill Christ....? [Re: Mountain Man] #106382
12/22/08 08:58 PM
12/22/08 08:58 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
We're in agreement that Christ bore our sin from birth, right? Are we also in agreement that Isa. 53 should not be limited to Gethsemane/Calvary? (e.g. Matthew quoted it in Matt. 8:17, which is well before Christ's final week).


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Did Satan intend to kill Christ....? [Re: Tom] #106391
12/22/08 10:17 PM
12/22/08 10:17 PM
teresaq  Offline
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Very Dedicated Member
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,984
CA, USA
except that matthew quotes part of isaiah and in relation to healing.

Mat 8:14 And when Jesus was come into Peter's house, he saw his wife's mother laid, and sick of a fever.
Mat 8:15 And he touched her hand, and the fever left her: and she arose, and ministered unto them.
Mat 8:16 When the even was come, they brought unto him many that were possessed with devils: and he cast out the spirits with his word, and healed all that were sick:
Mat 8:17 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, Himself took our infirmities, and bare our sicknesses.

richard has a point and it seems that everything else should be understood in light of the sacrificial system, which had such minute detail.


Psa 64:5 ...an evil matter: they commune of laying snares privily; they say, Who shall see them?

Psa 7:14 Behold, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood. 15 He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made. 16 His mischief (and his violent dealing) shall return upon his own head.

Psa 7:17 I will praise the LORD according to his righteousness: and will sing praise to the name of the LORD most high.
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