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Re: ellen whites writings altered [Re: teresaq] #107256
01/07/09 07:37 AM
01/07/09 07:37 AM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Quote:
I'm mostly in agreement with you, Tom. I'm not getting into the "begotten" thing, tho.


There's a question as to when Christ was begotten. Some thing this is referring to Christ's incarnation, some to His resurrection, some to when He proceeded from God, and there may be some other possibilities.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: ellen whites writings altered [Re: teresaq] #107258
01/07/09 09:08 AM
01/07/09 09:08 AM
G
gordonb1  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2014

Veteran Member
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 936
Quebec
Hi Teresa,

I don't mind if I don't look credible. Perhaps I'm not. (It's a question for all of us). I didn't check the link nor did I make claims for Smyrna. As mentioned, it's not my studied aim to catalog changes. I've seen enough in my own reading of EGW. Sorry if you feel attacked because your view is challenged. You seem bright and persistent enough not to take everything at face value, and in truth it appeared you possessed a healthy Protestant streak. The organization is not infallible.

Are you asking me to point out a change claimed by a Smyrna book you've found? I can't defend Smyrna. But you're quite right for this one example you've just posted, I see no change.

This I could also suggest. Smyrna may have the printed (paper) book {11MR 35.3} which is referenced for the quotation, and the change may be found there, in the hard copy. Or Smyrna could be wrong. I don't write for them, but I think they're available for contact or inquiry.

I've seen many changes, so I know they exist. This may not be one of them.

Did you check the missing 4 pages from the GC? Or inquire about Steps to Christ? Or compare the 1884 vs. 1911 GC version of the French Revolution?

Re: ellen whites writings altered [Re: gordonb1] #107262
01/07/09 03:01 PM
01/07/09 03:01 PM
Rick H  Offline

Group: Admin Team
3000+ Member
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,126
Florida, USA
Ellen White had assistants to prepare the books that kept her materials, notes, sermons, etc.. and she herself did a lot of editing as she saw what she had written before did not fully express the idea or belief as most good editors do. This was a normal process which was done with all her writings especially when they went to be republished, some try to put a sinister spin on it but it was nothing but a normal work of any writer, to do the review of the work and editing and she looked at every final proof..

Here is from the White estate...

...Did any of the literary assistants alter the thoughts or make additions as the writings passed through their hands? This question is answered clearly by the written statements of several of Mrs. White's helpers:

"None of Mother's workers are authorized to add to the manuscripts by introducing thoughts of their own."--W. C. White to G. A. Irwin, May 7, 1900.

"From my own knowledge of the work, as well as from the statements of Sister White herself, I have the strongest possible ground for disbelieving that such a thing [the adding of thoughts by the copyist] was done."--Marian Davis to G. A. Irwin, April 23, 1900.

"In all good conscience I can testify that never was I presumptuous enough to venture to add any ideas of my own or to do other than follow with most scrupulous care the thoughts of the author."--D. E. Robinson, 1933, White Estate Document File 107g.

Mrs. White wrote voluminously on many topics. To supplement what was written specifically for a definite book, the literary assistant gathered other related gems of thought from her writings--books, published articles, manuscripts, letters, and discourses. Working together, Mrs. White and her assistants planned the outline of the books and prepared the matter chapter by chapter. In its final form, the manuscripts were read and given approval by Mrs. White herself and then sent to the printer....

Someone may interject here: “But the translators changed only errors of grammar and construction. They did not add new thoughts or make sweeping changes.” That is correct. Neither did Mrs. White's literary assistants. What evidence is presented to support the charge that “the manager of one of their largest publishing houses … did not suppose that Mrs. White ever prepared a whole chapter for one of her popular subscription books. They were all the work of others”? The answer is, No evidence at all. Obviously there were changes of words in revising grammar and of phrases in smoothing literary construction. But that was true of the translators' work on the Revelation.

We have found repeatedly that the critic's charges have been proved groundless....

We freely admit that her grammar and literary constructions, at times, were not perfect, and that literary assistants did, by making certain grammatical corrections, improve the clarity and give a certain polish to the writing. But that is something fundamentally different from what is being charged. And what proof can we present that the charge is false? Strictly speaking, we ought not to be required to defend Mrs. White against a charge which is based on hearsay and gossip and supposition, and the indirect testimony of an unnamed manager speaking to an unnamed individual.

But so great is the power of hearsay, so fatal a fascination has gossip and supposition for many minds, that a critic always has


[473]

a heavy advantage. He needs only to start a rumor in circulation, to tell a plausible story with a certain intonation of the voice, in order to play havoc with a reputation. Against the unsupported charge that Mrs. White was so hopelessly unlettered and ignorant that any quality or worth in her writings was edited in by assistants, some very specific evidence may be presented...


.....Her assistants were called upon, not to do creative, original work on her manuscripts, not to change the thought or intent, but simply to correct possible errors of grammar, to improve sentence structure, and the like, which, for lack of a better word, is sometimes described as polishing a manuscript. It would have been a


[486]

very unprofitable use of Mrs. White's time if she had done this painstaking, detail work.

All the polishing in the world will not make a pebble into a precious stone. Nor does polishing change in any way the intrinsic quality of a diamond. The polishing only makes the quality more evident. Even so with Mrs. White's writings and the so-called polishing done by literary assistants.*.....

...

Re: ellen whites writings altered [Re: Rick H] #107264
01/07/09 06:20 PM
01/07/09 06:20 PM
G
gordonb1  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2014

Veteran Member
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 936
Quebec
Richard,

Was it just, to persecute a lifelong servant of the Church, fire and strip him of his pension, because he blew the trumpet on the Evangelical meetings? M.L. Andreasen was standing up against error, infiltration and apostasy. At his advanced age I believe it broke him. It's a very sad story and shows the spellbinding influence of groupthink. How many shunned him because they were "just following orders" ?

As the saying goes, a society (or organization) is only as good as its treatment of weak & elderly members.

On the other hand, Donald Barnhouse (Eternity Magazine) and Walter Martin (Kingdom of the Cults, etc.) had the ear of the GC leadership and were welcome guests.

Re: ellen whites writings altered [Re: gordonb1] #107266
01/07/09 08:47 PM
01/07/09 08:47 PM
Rick H  Offline

Group: Admin Team
3000+ Member
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,126
Florida, USA
Originally Posted By: gordonb1
Richard,

Was it just, to persecute a lifelong servant of the Church, fire and strip him of his pension, because he blew the trumpet on the Evangelical meetings? M.L. Andreasen was standing up against error, infiltration and apostasy. At his advanced age I believe it broke him. It's a very sad story and shows the spellbinding influence of groupthink. How many shunned him because they were "just following orders" ?

As the saying goes, a society (or organization) is only as good as its treatment of weak & elderly members.

On the other hand, Donald Barnhouse (Eternity Magazine) and Walter Martin (Kingdom of the Cults, etc.) had the ear of the GC leadership and were welcome guests.


I know the heartache as I have someone close to me who suffered the same fate for standing his ground on the unethical and potentially dishonourable behaviour by some leaders, and it was devastating for him. But he did the right thing and I feel God vindicated him as the leaders were voted out the next session.

M.L. Andreasen was a good man and wonderful Christian, church leaders are not perfect and they have made many mistakes even against Ellen White, Jones' and Waggoner's with the 1888 message. We as members must be careful to put God fearing men who set aside self to do what God sets forth, it is the members who must be the guardians of the leaders they put in and if necessary take them out when they forget their duty.

Last edited by Richard; 01/07/09 08:54 PM.
Re: ellen whites writings altered [Re: Rick H] #107267
01/07/09 09:28 PM
01/07/09 09:28 PM
Daryl  Online Canadian

Site Administrator
23000+ Member
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 25,123
Nova Scotia, Canada
Yes, unfortunately, even our church leaders are not perfect from the local church level right up to the GC level and all points in between.


In His Love, Mercy & Grace,

Daryl smile

John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

http://www.christians-discuss.com/forum/index.php
Re: ellen whites writings altered [Re: Rick H] #107290
01/08/09 05:32 AM
01/08/09 05:32 AM
teresaq  Offline OP
SDA
Active Member 2024

Very Dedicated Member
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,984
CA, USA
Originally Posted By: Richard
Ellen White had assistants to prepare the books that kept her materials, notes, sermons, etc.. and she herself did a lot of editing as she saw what she had written before did not fully express the idea or belief as most good editors do. This was a normal process which was done with all her writings especially when they went to be republished, some try to put a sinister spin on it but it was nothing but a normal work of any writer, to do the review of the work and editing and she looked at every final proof..

Here is from the White estate...

...Did any of the literary assistants alter the thoughts or make additions as the writings passed through their hands? This question is answered clearly by the written statements of several of Mrs. White's helpers:

"None of Mother's workers are authorized to add to the manuscripts by introducing thoughts of their own."--W. C. White to G. A. Irwin, May 7, 1900.

"From my own knowledge of the work, as well as from the statements of Sister White herself, I have the strongest possible ground for disbelieving that such a thing [the adding of thoughts by the copyist] was done."--Marian Davis to G. A. Irwin, April 23, 1900.

"In all good conscience I can testify that never was I presumptuous enough to venture to add any ideas of my own or to do other than follow with most scrupulous care the thoughts of the author."--D. E. Robinson, 1933, White Estate Document File 107g.

Mrs. White wrote voluminously on many topics. To supplement what was written specifically for a definite book, the literary assistant gathered other related gems of thought from her writings--books, published articles, manuscripts, letters, and discourses. Working together, Mrs. White and her assistants planned the outline of the books and prepared the matter chapter by chapter. In its final form, the manuscripts were read and given approval by Mrs. White herself and then sent to the printer....

Someone may interject here: “But the translators changed only errors of grammar and construction. They did not add new thoughts or make sweeping changes.” That is correct. Neither did Mrs. White's literary assistants. What evidence is presented to support the charge that “the manager of one of their largest publishing houses … did not suppose that Mrs. White ever prepared a whole chapter for one of her popular subscription books. They were all the work of others”? The answer is, No evidence at all. Obviously there were changes of words in revising grammar and of phrases in smoothing literary construction. But that was true of the translators' work on the Revelation.

We have found repeatedly that the critic's charges have been proved groundless....

We freely admit that her grammar and literary constructions, at times, were not perfect, and that literary assistants did, by making certain grammatical corrections, improve the clarity and give a certain polish to the writing. But that is something fundamentally different from what is being charged. And what proof can we present that the charge is false? Strictly speaking, we ought not to be required to defend Mrs. White against a charge which is based on hearsay and gossip and supposition, and the indirect testimony of an unnamed manager speaking to an unnamed individual.

But so great is the power of hearsay, so fatal a fascination has gossip and supposition for many minds, that a critic always has


[473]

a heavy advantage. He needs only to start a rumor in circulation, to tell a plausible story with a certain intonation of the voice, in order to play havoc with a reputation. Against the unsupported charge that Mrs. White was so hopelessly unlettered and ignorant that any quality or worth in her writings was edited in by assistants, some very specific evidence may be presented...


.....Her assistants were called upon, not to do creative, original work on her manuscripts, not to change the thought or intent, but simply to correct possible errors of grammar, to improve sentence structure, and the like, which, for lack of a better word, is sometimes described as polishing a manuscript. It would have been a


[486]

very unprofitable use of Mrs. White's time if she had done this painstaking, detail work.

All the polishing in the world will not make a pebble into a precious stone. Nor does polishing change in any way the intrinsic quality of a diamond. The polishing only makes the quality more evident. Even so with Mrs. White's writings and the so-called polishing done by literary assistants.*.....

...


i have come to the conclusion that in spite of all of ellen whites diarys, and statements as to who, what, why her writings were edited by herself, that will not be believed.

it becomes either, i choose to believe they were changed by others,

or

i choose to believe ellen white and God was in absolute control.


Psa 64:5 ...an evil matter: they commune of laying snares privily; they say, Who shall see them?

Psa 7:14 Behold, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood. 15 He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made. 16 His mischief (and his violent dealing) shall return upon his own head.

Psa 7:17 I will praise the LORD according to his righteousness: and will sing praise to the name of the LORD most high.
Re: ellen whites writings altered [Re: gordonb1] #107291
01/08/09 05:35 AM
01/08/09 05:35 AM
teresaq  Offline OP
SDA
Active Member 2024

Very Dedicated Member
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,984
CA, USA
Originally Posted By: gordonb1
Teresa -
If your mind is already made up, there's little point in asking for evidence.


Psa 64:5 ...an evil matter: they commune of laying snares privily; they say, Who shall see them?

Psa 7:14 Behold, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood. 15 He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made. 16 His mischief (and his violent dealing) shall return upon his own head.

Psa 7:17 I will praise the LORD according to his righteousness: and will sing praise to the name of the LORD most high.
Re: ellen whites writings altered [Re: teresaq] #107298
01/08/09 08:04 AM
01/08/09 08:04 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2021

5500+ Member
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
Perhaps the following statements are relevant to this discussion. They are of such a nature that I am tempted to say "there are two sides to every argument, and I have presented them both!"

Originally Posted By: The Publishing Ministry
Language Simplified by Helpers.--The articles that were simplified [by Fannie Bolton] on the childhood of Jesus were not satisfactory to me. The matter was diluted altogether too much, and the life and spirit did not appear.--Lt 84, 1895. {PM 209.1}
Edson, you are at liberty to select from my writings the matter that is needed for the proposed simple tracts and booklets for the Southern field. We send you some articles on the child life of Jesus [A SERIES OF FIVE ELLEN G. WHITE ARTICLES UNDER THE TITLE OF "CHILD LIFE OF JESUS," WHICH APPEARED IN THE YOUTH'S INSTRUCTOR, NOVEMBER 21, 1895, TO JANUARY 2, 1896.
EDSON ADAPTED MATERIAL ON THE LIFE OF CHRIST RECEIVED FROM HIS MOTHER, ELLEN WHITE, AND PREPARED THE WELL-KNOWN BOOK CHRIST OUR SAVIOUR (THE STORY OF JESUS), WHICH FIRST APPEARED IN 1896, AND IS STILL AVAILABLE IN ENGLISH AND A FEW NON-ENGLISH LANGUAGES.
THE STATEMENTS QUOTED ABOVE SHOULD NOT BE UNDERSTOOD TO BE AUTHORIZATION BY ELLEN WHITE TO SIMPLIFY ALL OF HER WRITINGS.] that may be a help to you. As you will see, they are in two styles. Sister Bolton, my copyist, has had little time for the preparation of the simple form, and you may be able, yourself, to simplify in a way that will suit you better. You are the one who can best prepare the matter you need, for you are acquainted with the Southern field. You will know how simple to make the truth so as to be understood, and what portions to select.... {PM 209.2}


Originally Posted By: Manuscript Releases
If you had the task given you of handling Old and New Testament writings, you would see large improvements to be made, great additions and subtractions and changes of expressions; you would put in words and ideas to suit your standard of how it should appear. We should then have Fannie Bolton's life and expressions, which would be considered by you a wonderful improvement; but disapproved of God. Letter 7, 1894, p. 1. (To Fannie Bolton, February 6, 1894.) {1MR 34.1}

You and he have evidenced your opinion of your own judgment--that it was more reliable than Sister White's. Did you consider that Sister White has been dealing with just such cases during her life of service for the Master, that cases similar to your own, and many varieties of cases, have passed before her that should make her know what is right and what is wrong in these things? Is a judgment that has been under the training of God for more than fifty years of no preference to those who have not had this discipline and education? Please consider these things.--Letter 115, 1895, p. 4. (To Fannie Bolton, Nov. 26, 1895; 3SM p. 60.) {2MR 87.4}


I tell you that there is not a semblance of truth in her [FANNY BOLTON, ONE OF ELLEN WHITE'S LITERARY ASSISTANTS FOR A SHORT PERIOD IN AMERICA AND A FEW YEARS IN AUSTRALIA, WAS AT TIMES TEMPTED TO MAKE RIDICULOUS AND UNSUSTAINED CLAIMS FOR HER CONTRIBUTIONS IN THE COPYING AND EDITING OF E. G. WHITE MATERIALS. HER CLAIM TO BE SOMEWHAT RESPONSIBLE FOR THE CONTENT OF STEPS TO CHRIST IS WITHOUT FOUNDATION. A CONFESSION ON HER PART IN 1901 SETS THE RECORD STRAIGHT.] statements. My copyists you have seen. They do not change my language. It stands as I write it. . . . {9MR 23.1}
My work has been in the field since 1845. Ever since then I have labored with pen and voice. Increased light has come to me as I have imparted the light given me. I have very much more light on the Old and New Testament Scriptures, which I shall present to our people if my way is not blocked by such influences as the influence exerted by Fannie Bolton. Such a work as hers calls for my pen and voice to contradict her statements, in order to save poor souls from being entirely swamped by her assertion that she has received the Holy Ghost. This is another phase of her desire to exalt herself as ordained by the Lord to bear a message to His people. The Lord did not send her, yet she ran. She will not honor the cause of God, but will mislead others. {9MR 23.2}


Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: ellen whites writings altered [Re: teresaq] #107320
01/08/09 11:32 PM
01/08/09 11:32 PM
teresaq  Offline OP
SDA
Active Member 2024

Very Dedicated Member
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,984
CA, USA
from the same book at the smyrna site. (the foundation of our faith)

from smyrna, again, p 213.
Quote:

Another example of the changing of pronouns can be found in comparing the following statement first published in The Signs of the Times, September 27, 1899, and then republished in Ye Shall Receive Power in 1995:

Signs of the Times, September 27, 1899
“The Lord would have every one of His children rich in faith, and this faith is the fruit of the working of the Holy Spirit upon the mind. It dwells with each soul who will receive it, speaking to the impenitent in words of
warning, and pointing them to Jesus, the Lamb of God, that taketh away the sin of the world. It causes light to shine into the minds of those who are seeking to co-operate with God, giving them efficiency and wisdom to do His work.”

Ye Shall Receive Power, page 59
“The Lord would have every one of His children rich in faith, and this faith is the fruit of the working of the Holy Spirit upon the mind. He dwells with each soul who will receive Him, speaking to the impenitent in
words of warning, and pointing them to Jesus, the Lamb of God, that taketh away the sin of the world. He causes light to shine into the minds of those who are seeking to cooperate with God, giving them efficiency and wisdom to do His work.”


ellen white search site:
Quote:

The Lord would have every one of His children rich in faith, and this faith is the fruit of the working of the Holy Spirit upon the mind. It dwells with each soul who will receive it, speaking to the impenitent in words of warning, and pointing them to Jesus, the Lamb of God, that taketh away the sin of the world. It causes light to shine into the minds of those who are seeking to cooperate with God, giving them efficiency and wisdom to do His work. {YRP 59.2}


my cd:
Quote:

The Lord would have every one of His children rich in faith, and this faith is the fruit of the working of the Holy Spirit upon the mind. It dwells with each soul who will receive it, speaking to the impenitent in words of warning, and pointing them to Jesus, the Lamb of God, that taketh away the sin of the world. It causes light to shine into the minds of those who are seeking to cooperate with God, giving them efficiency and wisdom to do His work. {YRP 59.2}


that is the second false claim regarding the same subject in the same chapter.


Psa 64:5 ...an evil matter: they commune of laying snares privily; they say, Who shall see them?

Psa 7:14 Behold, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood. 15 He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made. 16 His mischief (and his violent dealing) shall return upon his own head.

Psa 7:17 I will praise the LORD according to his righteousness: and will sing praise to the name of the LORD most high.
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