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The Punishment of the Reprobate Question
#104885
11/19/08 06:16 PM
11/19/08 06:16 PM
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An Eternal Fire That Doesn’t Burn For Ever. Is it Possible?
“Eternal”, “for ever”, “everlasting” are terms found in the Bible that could transmit a notion that doesn’t correspond to how we perceive them in our language.
Linguists discuss the meaning of the Hebrew and Greek words that are translated as “eternal” and “eternally” in the Scriptures (olam, in Hebrew; aion, aionios, in Greek). This could seem confusing for a layperson, but a way to understand it more easily is comparing various translations. For example, there are Bible translations that bring in Psalm 23:6: “I will dwell in the house of the Lord for ever”. Other Bibles say, “I will dwell in the house of the Lord for long days”. The original is the same, but while a translator favored “for ever” for olam, others preferred “for long days”, which obviously doesn’t mean the same thing.
This is reflected in foreign translations. In French the Louis Segond version says “jusqu’à la fin de mes jours” [until the end of my days], and in the Spanish Reina-Valera translation it says “por largos días” [for long days].
”For ever” and “eternal, eternally” in Hebrew and Greek
In the Mosaic law there was an arrangement by which a slave would serve his owner “for ever” [olam] (Exodus 21:1-6), but this “for ever” is relative to the lifetime of both slave and his owner, and depends on the longevity of each of both.
Those who criticize the Sabbath observers like to remind them that the divine covenant with Israel was “perpetual”, however it ended on the cross! Thus, how come something that is perpetual could come to an end? In the Hebrew language this is possible. The term olam has a relative connotation regarding that which it refers to.
In the New Testament it is not different. Paul refers to Onesimus, the converted slave, who should go back to serve his lord “for ever [aionios]” (Philemon 15). That “for ever”, nevertheless, means until de end of the slave’s life (or that of his owner)!
And what can we say about the “eternal fire” that burnt Sodom and Gomorrha but are not in flames today? It is said to have been “set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire” (Jude 7).
Two verses that shed much light
Reading carefully the verses below one can see something that probably has not called the attention of many Bible readers and that illustrates the relativity of meaning of Hebrew words translated by “eternally” and “for ever”. Prophesying about Jerusalem, the prophet Isaiah says:
“Because the palaces shall be forsaken; the multitude of the city shall be left; the forts and towers shall be for dens for ever . . . until the spirit be poured upon us from on high, and the wilderness be a fruitful field, and the fruitful field be counted for a forest”. -- Isaiah 32: 14 e 15.
Notice the expressions “for ever” and “until” in an immediate context. How could something be stipulated “for ever . . . until” a certain fact occur? This in English wouldn’t make sense, but it does in the Hebrew language.
Another very significant text is found a little beyond. Referring to the edomites, who God had destined “for destruction”, Isaiah utilizes again similar hyperbolic language:
“And the streams thereof shall be turned into pitch, and the dust thereof into brimstone, and the land thereof shall become burning pitch. It shall not be quenched night or day; the smoke thereof shall go up for ever: from generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it for ever and ever”. -- Isaiah 34: 9 e 10.
It is well known that the edomites disappeared many centuries past. Could it be said that there is burning pitch and smoke going up from Edomland? Obviously not.
Similarly, the punishment to the dwellers of Jerusalem, due to their transgression of the Sabbath commandment, would be a fire that would not be quenched (Jeremiah 17:27). However, such fires have been extinguished long ago and they are not consuming the doors of the ancient capital of Israel in our days. What we have here is what is called hyperbole, a kind of “literary freedom” to highlight the severity of the chastisement. The same occurs in Isaiah 66:24, where the prophet states:
“And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcasses of the men that have transgressed against me: for their work shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh”.
In order to stress the horror of the tremendous punishment reserved to the enemies of God, the prophet employs a hyperbole speaking, not of souls that never die, but of worms, in the context of “carcasses”. The greatest dishonor for an Israelite would be to die as an animal, without burial. Now, of course the worms that feasted on the unburied cadavers would not be immortal, but they would apparently be so. The language only serves to highlight the gory sight of all those carcasses being consumed by innumerable worms. And the inextinguishable fire of the “thrash dump” where these cadavers would be laying has the same meaning as that of Jeremiah 17:27, which we already covered.
Christ used this metaphor in Mark 9:48, and also used other metaphors, such as Matthew 24:28: “For wheresoever the carcass is, there will the eagles be gathered together”.
It is noteworthy that the apostle John, in Revelation, utilizes the same type of language to describe the final lot of the impenitent ones (Apo. 17:16). The same John, let’s keep in mind, also used varied illustrations from the Old Testament, as when he deals with the evil woman (the corrupt church at the end of history) as Jezebel, and as he refers to Babylon, or depicts the beast of Revelation 13 as being made up of the elements of Daniel 7 (lion, leopard, bear. . .)--see vs. 2.
That is the root of the language somewhat enigmatic that confounds so many good people. The fire is eternal (as the one that destroyed Sodom and Gomorrha) and will burn day and night, with its smoke going up “for ever”, as happened in the land of Edom so many centuries ago!
[To be continued in the next frame]
A. G. Brito
Sola Scriptura Ministry
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Re: The Punishment of the Reprobate Question
[Re: Azenilto]
#104887
11/19/08 06:20 PM
11/19/08 06:20 PM
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[Conclusion of the previous frame]
Clear biblical language of full and total destruction of the reprobates
There are clear texts in the Bible on the total destruction of the ungodly ones: the wicked shall perish (Psalm 37:20); will be destroyed (Psalm 145:20); shall die (Ezekiel 18:4); shall be devoured (Psalm 21:9); shall not be any more (Psalm 37:10); shall be cut off (Proverbs 2:22); shall be turned into ashes (Malachi 4:3); shall consume away as smoke (Psalm 37:20); shall melt as wax (Psalm 68:2); those who don’t believe in the only begotten Son of God will perish (John 3:16), for “the wages of sin is death” (Romans 6:23).
In 2 Thessalonians 1:9 Paul, speaking of those who reject the Gospel, declares: “Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power”.
Now, what the word “destruction” evokes, but the picture of something that comes to its final end? And how about this “destruction” being additionally described as “everlasting”?
Isaiah 14:12ss depicts the king of Babylon in a language that is generally interpreted as referring to Lucifer himself. The same is found in Ezekiel 28:14ff, that pictures the king of Tyrus, but the descriptive language is clearly a reference to Satan. Vs. 18 and 19 speak of its final fall and the eternal destruction with fire that would transform him into ashes, “. . . never shalt thou be any more”, as we find in the King James Version. This is the end of Satan, the “root” that with the “branches” of his followers will meet destruction, as described in Malachi 4:1-3:
“For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch”.
The words of Jesus
Jesus compared the destruction of the reprobates with weeds gathered in bundles to be burnt (Mat. 13:30,40), the bad fish cast away (Mat. 13:48), the bad plants to be rooted up (Mat. 15:13), the unfruitful tree to be cut down (Luke 13:7), the withered branch to be cast into fire (John 15:6), the unfaithful servants who are destroyed (Luke 20:16), the bad servant who will be cut asunder (Mat. 24:51), the Galilaeans who perished (Luke 13:2, 3), the eighteen people who were smashed by the Siloam tower (Luke 13:4, 5), the ones before the flood who were drown by the waters (Luke 17:27), the people in Sodom and Gomorrha which were destroyed by the fire (Luke 17:29) and the rebel servants who were slayed when their master returned (Luke 19:14, 27).
All these illustrations used by the Savior describe vividly the final destruction of the reprobates. The contrast between the final destiny of the redeemed and that of the lost ones is one of life versus destruction. In Matthew 25:46 Christ shows the ANTITHESIS between the “life eternal” of the redeemed and “eternal death” of the condemned.
There is a parallel in the lot of both groups--the eternal character of their future destiny: on one hand, eternal life, on the other hand, eternal death.
Jesus said: “And I give unto them [the redeemed ones] eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of My hand” (John 10:28). And He also said: “Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat”. Within the context of these texts there is no reason to reinterpret the word “perish” or “destroy” to mean life remaining in unending torments.
In 2 Peter 3:6-10 we have the parallel set by the Apostle between those who “perished” in the Flood and those who will perish at the end, according to what has been decreed “by the same word” [of God]. The word employed by him is apollumi, or derivatives, in the sense of PERDITION OF THE UNGODLY MEN, as is clearly stated in vs. 7. Did, by any chance, those who “perished” in the Flood remain eternally within water suffering torments in an unending “liquid hell”?
The fire is unquenchable, but not what burns thereof . . .
Those who cite the references to the hellfire-geena (Mat. 5:22, 29, 30; 18:8, 9; 23:15; Mark 9: 48) in support of the idea of eternal torment don’t realize that, as John Stott [popular Protestant author] remarks, “the fire itself is called ‘eternal’ and ‘unquenchable’, but it would be very strange that what is thrown in it reveals itself indestructible. Our expectation would be the opposite: it would be consumed for ever, not tormented for ever. Thus is the smoke (evidence that the fire has accomplished its work) that goes up for ever and ever (Rev. 14:11; cf. 19:3)”.
None of the allusions of Christ to the hellfire-geena, indicates that the hell be a local of unending torment. What is eternal and unquenchable is not the punishment, but the fire, which, as in the case of Sodom and Gomorrha, as already covered in the discussion on Jude 7, causes the complete and permanent destruction of the ungodly, a condition that remains forever. The fire is unquenchable because it cannot be quenched until it consumes all the combustible material.
In Ezekiel 20:47, 48 we also find mention to a fire that destroys the enemies of God, and would not be quenched. This is so because “I the Lord have kindled it”. In the whole context the language is one of vengeance and has the tenor of “consuming” (see vs. 21:31, e 32—“thou shalt be fuel to the fire”, and 22:20—“into the midst of the furnace, to blow the fire upon . . . thee . . . and I will . . . melt thee . . .”). Thus, the “unquenchable” fire is so in the sense that it proceeded from God and nobody will be able to extinguish. It is, thus, unquenchable in a clear context that deals with total destruction by fire.
Destruction implies annihilation. The destruction of the reprobates is eternal, not because the process of their destruction continues for ever, but because its results are permanent. In the same way, the result of the “eternal punishment” of Mat. 25:46 are permanent. It is a punishment that results in their eternal destruction or annihilation, which is also called “second death”.
Speaking of “second death”, this is what characterizes the “lake of fire”, described by John in Revelation, that occurs on the Earth (see 20: 9, 10 e 14). After depicting the lake of fire that receives death and hell [the tomb], John goes on speaking of “a new heaven and a new earth” (Rev. 21:1) in the immediate sequence, without informing anything that such “lake of fire” is transferred to some other part of the universe to keep on burning eternally.
Final thoughts
The apostle Paul said that “in Him [God] we live, and move, and have our being” (Acts 17:28). Every existence of men and animals depend on God. No matter how well elaborated are the arguments employed, within the most refined rhetoric and “logical” explanations, there is no way to justify the Creator preserving the life of billions of His creatures with the sole purpose that they live throughout eternity suffering for errors and shortcomings committed during some decades of life (or even less that a decade). The notion of an eternally burning hell, which will never complete its destructive work, is incompatible with the notion that God is love and justice. And there are those who even teach that God “predestinates” some to be saved, while the ones who are lost is because were not among the “elected”! They were born to live eternally burning later on!. . . . No wonder the quantity of atheists, agnostics and materialists that have inhabited the planet.
In contrast, those who didn’t have the happiness of seeing all his loved ones sharing the blessed eternity (certainly not many) will feel greater solace to know that they are not condemned to spend eternity burning in a fire that will never extinguish. Especially as they are able to access the heavenly records to understand the reasons why they were not saved (see 1 Cor. 6:2 and 3) they will know that in their destruction justice and mercy was fully served.
When someone suffers for years of a terminal disease and come to his/her end, the commentary is often: “At least he/she rested and stop suffering!” Relatives and friends feel comforted. The same will happen when the “cancer” of sin be eliminated once and for all from the universe, to be totally purified of any relics of iniquity, for the Bible promise is that “according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness” (2 Peter 3:13).
A. G. Brito
Sola Scriptura Ministry
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10 Reasons Why Revelation 20:10 Doesn’t Prove the Theory of an Eternally Burning Hell
[Re: Azenilto]
#104894
11/19/08 07:09 PM
11/19/08 07:09 PM
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10 Reasons Why Revelation 20:10 Doesn’t Prove the Theory of an Eternally Burning Hell
The text says:“And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever”.
1o. - Because it is a rule in good Theology that doctrines are not established on the basis of symbolic, parabolic or isolated texts in the Scriptures, especially those not very clear. The book of Revelation is full of allegories taken from the Old Testament that need to be understood within the characteristics of these illustrations and according to its original use. Thus, we have references to Balaam [2:14], Jezebel [2:20], the two olive trees of Zacariah 4 [11:4], Elijah is the draught [11:6], Sodom and Egypt [11:8], Babylon [14:8, chaps. 17 and 18], Gog and Magog [20:8], the beast composed of the same animals in Daniel 7 [13:2], etc.
2o. - Because the language of “tormented day and night” is drawn from Isaiah 34:10, that speaks of how “it will not be quenched night and day . . . from generation to generation” the fire that destroys Edom, thus representing an intense and complete process of destruction for the time of its duration, being desolated “from generation to generation” (which is equivalent to the “for the century of centuries”). However, for millennia Edom no longer exists. Also in Jeremiah17:27 we read about the fire that would consume Jerusalem’s gates and would not be quenched. But that fire has extinguished for millennia now.
3o. - Because the figure of the fire that never is extinguished is also part of the Old Testament language used in Ezekiel 20:47, 48. The reason why the fire that destroys God’s enemies will not be quenched is because “I the Lord have kindled it”. Throughout the context the language has the tenor of “consuming” (see 21:31, and 32—“you will be fuel for the fire”, and 22:20—“I will gather you in my anger, and you will be melted. . .”).
4o. - Because in the book of Revelation itself John employs the same language of 20:10 in other places in a sense of something that lasts “day and night”, denoting continuity, not eternal duration of an action. Thus he describes the living creatures praising God without rest “day and night” (Rev. 4:8’), the martyrs that serve God “day and night” (Rev. 7:15) and Satan accusing the brethren “day and night” (Rev. 12:10).
5o. - Because the lot of Babylon, symbol of the false religion, to which the beast and the false prophet are associated, jointly thrown into the “lake of fire”, is total destruction, to the point of “never to be found again” (Rev. 14:11 and 18:8 and 21).
6o. - Because the armies of Gog and Magog, mentioned in the immediate context (vs. 8’), remind the episode prophesized by Ezekiel of Israel’s enemies, which were totally desolated and destroyed (see Ezekiel chaps. 38 and 39). Also the language of the pouring of the cup of God’s wrath, applied to Babylon, is a well established symbol of the divine judgment in the Old Testament (Isa. 51:17, 22; Jer. 25:15-38; Sal. 60:3; 75:8’). God pours the cup “without mixture”, i.e., without dilution, to secure its lethal effect. The prophets employed similar language: “they will drink and drink and be as if they had never been” (Oba. 16; cf. Jer. 25:18, 27, 33). The same cup of God’s wrath is served to Babylon, the city that corrupts the people. God mixtures—“pay her back double”--and the result is “her plagues will overtake her: death, mourning and famine”, as well as destruction by fire (Rev. 18: 6, 8). The end of Babylon, destroyed by fire, is also the end of the apostates who drank of the chalice without mixture, from God.
7o. - Because, according to the Scriptures, only God possesses in Himself immortality (1 Tim. 1:17; 6:16). He grants immortality as a gift of the gospel (2 Tim. 1:10:) and those who will be lost are the ones who didn’t receive that blessing. In Romans 2:7 Paul speaks of those who will receive life eternal in view of looking for glory, honor and “immortality”. We don’t have to look for attaining something we already possess, supposedly in the form of an eternal element that we bear in the inner being.
8o. - Because the contrast between saved and lost is defined as those who have life eternal (John 6:54), and those who will perish, as the wages of sin is death (John 3:16; Rom. 6:23), since they will be thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, “the second death” (Rev. 20:14 and 21:8’). Revelation 20:9 says that those who face the fire of the gehenna are “consumed”. Notice that the “brimstone” is introduced there in association with the “second death” of the lake of fire.
9o. - Because the final lot of the devil himself will be the destruction, as described in very graphic language in Ezekiel 28:18 and 19 (represented as the king of Tyre, as in Isaiah 14 he is the king of Babylon), “. . . I made a fire come out from you, and it consumed you, and I reduced you into ashes . . . you have come to a horrible end and will be no more” (compare with Isa. 14:14, 15 and Mal. 4:1-3).
10o. - Because in a striking contrast between those who accept salvation and those who reject definitively the divine message (Hebrews 6:4-8) it is said that the first “have tasted the heavenly gift”, while the last ones are as a bare land that “is worthless and is in danger of being cursed, in the end to be burned”. In the same book, 12:28, 29 we have again the contrast: “. . . we are receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, let us be thankful, and so worship god acceptably with reverence and awe, for our ‘God is a consuming fire’“.-- Study by Prof. Azenilto G. Brito [based on the discussions on the end of sin and sinners in Dr. Samuele Bacchiocchi’s book Immortality or Resurrection?. All Bible texts were taken from the New International Version].
A. G. Brito
Sola Scriptura Ministry
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Re: 10 Reasons Why Revelation 20:10 Doesn’t Prove the Theory of an Eternally Burning Hell
[Re: Azenilto]
#104895
11/19/08 07:19 PM
11/19/08 07:19 PM
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How the Bible Describes the End of Everything -- The Death of Death!
The problem of some who debate the subject of man’s nature and destiny is to allege that the meaning of “eternal punishment” in Matthew 25:46 -- “and these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal” -- indicates the literal eternity, in terms of infinite time, for the lost ones. But things are not so, by no means. Let us see:
a) Actually, the word “eternal” (aionios in the Greek original) is the same for both saved and lost. The question under discussion is related to the aspect of the “eternal” destination of the two groups.
b) They are RELATED in terms of final destination of both, however NOT EQUALED, for there is a contrast between the condition of eternal life of the group of redeemed, and of eternal death of the other group.
c) Christ is establishing the ANTITHESIS of the saved and lost ones and their final destination is, of course, eternal, definitive, for both groups. The word “eternal” is related in both cases, but not equaled in its absolute meaning because there are other information in the Bible to understand the lot of the saved and the lost ones, indicating eternal life with God for the redeemed, and “perdition of ungodly men” (2 Peter 3:7). After all, the Bible says clearly that “the wages of sin is death” (Rom. 6:23).
d) In the analysis of men’s final destination subject we cannot ignore the beginning of human history, taking for granted the not proved premise that inside of the human being there is an immortal particle, created by God in the beginning (Genesis 1 and 2), in function of which the reprobates will have that to live eternally in the fire of gehenna, where they are thrown. Such information simply doesn’t occur in the description man’s creation (Gen. 2:7). We don’t have a soul, we are living souls.
e) If we should not ignore the beginning of history, also the end shouldn’t be overlooked, or what the Bible teaches on the lot of the lost ones--the lake of fire. The fact is that immediately after mentioning the lake of fire action, which is the second death, we a description of a “a new heaven and a new earth . . . and there was no more sea [nor lake of fire]”. Thus, there is no room for any lake of fire to continue its destructive work on the surface of this renewed planet, nor there is any information of about it jumping out of the Earth’s surface to go on burning in another place of the universe (see Revelation 20:14--21:8’).
f) Also there is a tremendous difficulty for the advocates of the thesis of the literal eternal punishment of the lost ones, since Christ speaks of the resurrection in terms of all coming from the tombs, the ones who did good for the “resurrection of life”, and evildoers, for the “resurrection of the condemnation” (John 5:28, 29). But if the lost ones, finally, are thrown in the fire lake, they would have to possess bodies of such a structure that were eternally refractory to the fire! However, only the redeemed ones are told to have “incorruptible” bodies, as Paul asserts in Philippians 3:20, 21 and 1 Corinthians 15:35--55.
g) Moreover, the biblical language of destruction is very clear, both in the Old as in the New Testament. Psalmist David speaks of the punishment of the ungodly will be “as wax melteth” (68: 2), or “as the chaff which the wind driveth away”, or made as “smoke shall they consume away” (see Psalms 1:4; 37:10, 20). Ezekiel speaks of the “king of Tyre”, in a representation of Satan himself, that will be destroyed entirely, or “shalt be . . . any more”, as some versions bring it (Ezekiel 28:14-18). Malachi 4:1-3 speaks of the condemned one whom will not be left “neither root nor branch”, but will become like ashes! In the New Testament we have Paul speaking of the reprobates being destroyed and banished of God’s face (2 Tessalonians 1:7-10) when Christ comes bringing the “flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God”. That is significant, for it demonstrates that the hell fire DOESN’T EXIST yet--the punishment is future! And 2 Peter 3:6-10 deals with this final destruction in very clear terms, using the word apollumi and derived ones, tracing a parallel of the sinners’ destruction at the end of history with that of the antediluvians. By any chance those who lived at the Flood time “perished” in the water, remaining there being left there in eternal liquid tortures?
h) The words “eternal” and “for ever” do not always have in Hebrew (olam) and Greek (aion, aionios) the absolute meaning of unending time in English. Let us see three examples of use of three Hebrew words (Old Testament) for “everlasting” and three in Greek (New Testament) that don’t convey any notion of unending time:
Hebrew -- Old Testament
1 -- In Psalm 23:6 it says: “I will dwell in the house of the Lord for ever-olam”. However, comparing different versions one notices that different translators preferred to translate olam in this verse as “for long days” or, as it is presented in the French version of Louis Segond, “jusq’au fin de mes jours” [until the end of my days]!
2 - The prophet Jonah, tells of his plight in these terms: “I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars was about me for ever-olam; yet hast thou brought up my life from corruption, O Lord my God” (Jonas 2:6). What a brief “forever” was that--it lasted a total of. . . just three days and three nights!
3 - The leprosy of Naaman would fall again on Geazi, the servant of Elisha, who lied and deceived the king and the prophet, and on his descent “for ever-olam”. Would it be case that those lepers today suffering from that terrible disease are of the problematic prophet’s aide descent? (see 2 Kings 5:27).
Greek (New Testament)
1 - Hebrews 6:2 speak of the “eternal-aionios judgment”. This does not mean that the judgment is a process that has a start but does not have an end, rather that the judgment is of eternal consequences and/or effect.
2 - Philemom, ver. 15, brings “for ever-aionios” in the sense of the lifetime of a man (either the servant’s or his owner).
3 - The fire that destroyed Sodom and Gomorrha was “eternal” (Jude 7), however the city is not burning until today, because it was a eternal fire in its consequences (or effects).
Finally, Greek dictionaries explain this:
“The word aion can be used of a man’s lifetime, as when Paul contemplates eating ‘no flesh for evermore’ (1 Cor. 8:13)”. -- Alan Richardson, A Theological Word Book of the Bible, 1950, art. “Time”, p. 266.
“Describes duration . . . not endless”. -- W. E. Vine, Dictionary of the New Testament Words, on “Eternal”.
And discussing the meaning of the Hebrew olam, Genesius in his Hebrew and Chaldean Lexicon of the Old Testament Scriptures explains:
“It more often refers to future time, in such a manner, that what is called the terminus ad quem, is always defined from the nature of the thing itself. When it is applied to human affairs, and specially . . . to individual men, it commonly signifies all the days of life”.
And the Cambridge Bible on Exo. 21:6. “for ever] i.e., till his life’s end: cf. ‘for ever’ in 1 S. i. 22, and esp. in the expression, ‘servant for ever’, xxvii. 12, Job xli, 4 [xl. 28 Heb.]”
Conclusion: We should not take texts or isolated terms of the Holy Writ to fix doctrines, according to deeply inbred ideas in the popular mentality. A detailed analysis of the meaning of key-words, as the adjectives “eternal”, “everlasting” and expressions such as “forever”, “will not be quenched” (ref. the fire of the punishment) needs to be undertaken before arriving at a conclusion of the real sense of what the author wants to transmit, when describing the final punishment of the reprobate.
To take words loosely, isolated from its immediate or global context, terms of doubtful meaning, or to literally interpret metaphors and hyperboles without considering the linguistic characteristics of the original were never the best methodology for the study of the divine message to the men throughout the Bible.
A. G. Brito
Sola Scriptura Ministry
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Re: 10 Reasons Why Revelation 20:10 Doesn’t Prove the Theory of an Eternally Burning Hell
[Re: Azenilto]
#104934
11/20/08 11:38 PM
11/20/08 11:38 PM
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SDA
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A. G. Brito, I respect some of your conclusions (e.g. people won't burn forever in hell), but unfortunately you have twisted scripture an awful lot to reach these conclusions--and therefore, your conclusions will be untenable if you choose to support them in this way. Here are some terms you need to consider: “everlasting burnings” (Isaiah 33:14) “eternal damnation” (Mark 3:29) “eternal judgment” (Hebrews 6:2) “suffering the vengeance of eternal fire” (Jude 7) You can't have your cake and eat it too!Either the fire is eternal, or it isn't. Either the punishment is eternal, or it isn't. If you define "eternal" as NOT being eternal, then for consistency sake, you must necessarily open yourself up to using your definition in both places: both for the fire and for its effect. For example, if you should prove that "for ever" meant only a lifetime, and applied only to that individual, not to his sons, daughters, etc. (in the case of a slave), then what do you do with the "for ever" in this text? "And when all the children of Israel saw how the fire came down, and the glory of the LORD upon the house, they bowed themselves with their faces to the ground upon the pavement, and worshipped, and praised the LORD, saying, For he is good; for his mercy endureth for ever." (2 Chronicles 7:3, KJV) And if you should describe "eternal" as "not endless," as you have posited above, then what do you do with the "eternal" in this text? "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." (Romans 6:23, KJV) Look at how Jesus used the terms:
Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire. (Matthew 18:8, KJV)
And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire. (Matthew 18:9, KJV)
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: (Matthew 25:41, KJV)
And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. (Matthew 25:46, KJV)
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. (John 5:24, KJV)
Jesus here is clearly speaking of everlasting hell fire. And everlasting MEANS everlasting. I struggle to understand why Christians try to change the meanings of words in the Bible, simply because they find no understanding of them which seems acceptable in their own minds. This is what many in our church have done with the concept of hell fire. THE EXPLANATIONIt's very simple. “For the LORD thy God is a consuming fire, even a jealous God.” (Deuteronomy 4:24, KJV) God is a fire. God is eternal. Because God is eternal, and because God is a fire, the fire is eternal. End of story. Sodom "suffered the vengeance of 'eternal fire'." In other words, Sodom suffered the vengeance of God! That vengeance is complete. Sodom is not still suffering. BUT, the Fire still exists. Blessings, Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: 10 Reasons Why Revelation 20:10 Doesn’t Prove the Theory of an Eternally Burning Hell
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#105048
11/23/08 04:02 PM
11/23/08 04:02 PM
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GC, can we separate eternal fire from its effect upon Sodom? That is, after everything is burned to ashes, does the eternal fire of God's presence continue to burn? If so, why isn't it still burning in Sodom today?
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Re: 10 Reasons Why Revelation 20:10 Doesn’t Prove the Theory of an Eternally Burning Hell
[Re: Mountain Man]
#105063
11/23/08 11:17 PM
11/23/08 11:17 PM
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Mike, This may sound a bit shocking, but I believe that in a sense, we will ALL go to "hell." Those who are as "gold tried in the fire" are those whose characters have been purified by God, and who will no longer burn up in His presence. All others will burn as stubble. God is a fire. We see this in multiple representations throughout the Bible. Here are a few: The burning bush The pillar of fire The fire covering Mt. Sinai (Elijah's time) The tongues of fire (Pentecost) There are several references to fire in the following passage: And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle. (Revelation 1:13, KJV)
His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire; (Revelation 1:14, KJV)
And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters. (Revelation 1:15, KJV)
Notice that Daniel's three friends survived the fire, along with the presence of God. Isaiah says this: When thou passest through the waters, I will be with thee; and through the rivers, they shall not overflow thee: when thou walkest through the fire, thou shalt not be burned; neither shall the flame kindle upon thee. (Isaiah 43:2, KJV) The righteous will not be burned. But to the wicked, God's presence is a consuming fire. Why is not Sodom still burning today? It would nearly be an identical question to ask why the entire world is not burning today...because the answer is the same: God is hiding His glory, to permit sinners to live. No man can see God and live--sinful man, that is. If you compare carefully Psalm 15 with Isaiah 33, you will see that it is the righteous who will "dwell with everlasting burnings." The sight of God at His coming will cause us all to ask, "who shall be able to stand?" Only the righteous shall be able. Blessings, Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: 10 Reasons Why Revelation 20:10 Doesn’t Prove the Theory of an Eternally Burning Hell
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#105091
11/24/08 05:36 PM
11/24/08 05:36 PM
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GC, good point. However, I'm comfortable comparing the radiant brightness of God to hellfire and brimstone. I agree the bright light that radiates from God's physical being is a consuming fire to sinful flesh. But I also believe the fire that God rained down upon Sodom was a different form of fire. That fire went out after it consumed all the fuel. The fire light of God's brightness never goes out. Do see what I mean?
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Re: 10 Reasons Why Revelation 20:10 Doesn’t Prove the Theory of an Eternally Burning Hell
[Re: Mountain Man]
#105101
11/24/08 11:20 PM
11/24/08 11:20 PM
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Mike, Yes, I see what you mean. But let us look at another example. Nadab and Abihu. And Moses and Aaron went into the tabernacle of the congregation, and came out, and blessed the people: and the glory of the LORD appeared unto all the people. (Leviticus 9:23, KJV)
And there came a fire out from before the LORD, and consumed upon the altar the burnt offering and the fat: which when all the people saw, they shouted, and fell on their faces. (Leviticus 9:24, KJV)
And Nadab and Abihu, the sons of Aaron, took either of them his censer, and put fire therein, and put incense thereon, and offered strange fire before the LORD, which he commanded them not. (Leviticus 10:1, KJV)
And there went out fire from the LORD, and devoured them, and they died before the LORD. (Leviticus 10:2, KJV)
Then Moses said unto Aaron, This is it that the LORD spake, saying, I will be sanctified in them that come nigh me, and before all the people I will be glorified. And Aaron held his peace. (Leviticus 10:3, KJV)
And Moses called Mishael and Elzaphan, the sons of Uzziel the uncle of Aaron, and said unto them, Come near, carry your brethren from before the sanctuary out of the camp. (Leviticus 10:4, KJV)
So they went near, and carried them in their coats out of the camp; as Moses had said. (Leviticus 10:5, KJV) Notice how the Fire burned Nadab and Abihu, but they still carried their bodies out of the sanctuary? God can choose how much "burning" there is. He is in control of this aspect entirely. The bush did not burn, which provoked Moses' curiousity. I agree that God's fire never goes out. The Bible speaks of it as "everlasting." Blessings, Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: 10 Reasons Why Revelation 20:10 Doesn’t Prove the Theory of an Eternally Burning Hell
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#105135
11/25/08 04:18 PM
11/25/08 04:18 PM
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God is a fire. God is eternal. Because God is eternal, and because God is a fire, the fire is eternal. End of story.
Sodom "suffered the vengeance of 'eternal fire'." In other words, Sodom suffered the vengeance of God! That vengeance is complete. Sodom is not still suffering. BUT, the Fire still exists. The way this is worded makes me think you are arguing that the fire that burned Sodom is eternal fire. And yet the fire is not still burning. So, how can you say the fire is eternal? It went out, right? I realize you are also arguing that the fire light of God's radiant brightness is eternal and never goes out, but the stuff it causes to burn up does go out, it is not eternal. In such cases, the words "eternal" and "forever", as they apply to created things, must necessarily mean "as long as it lasts". The results are eternal, but the fire eventually goes out. Hellfire and brimstone are not eternal. That fire will go out.
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