First, I'd like to welcome Rosangela back.


Just to make sure we all realize that I didn't make this up:

And there's more quotes along that vein.


Yes, it would. So, continuing with the assumption that "nature" can be taken holistically, encompassing the spiritual, mental, and physical aspects of man, should we say that Jesus was sinful in these areas? In particular, did Jesus have a sinful spiritual/moral nature?

Clearly not, right? Therefore when the SOP says that Christ took the nature of Adam the transgressor, fallen nature, sinful nature, etc., she must not have had the holistic idea in mind, right?



Isn't this a red herring? I think the understanding of Christ's taking our nature is just what Haskell explained as he read from the Desire of Ages, which says that Christ took our nature. Haskell explained "This is fallen humanity with all its hereditary inclinations."

I don't think any of Ellen White or her contemporaries said that Christ had a fallen spiritual or moral nature. Everything I've read from Jones, Waggoner, Haskell, White, etc. is very careful to explain that while Christ took sinful flesh, including hereditary inclinations, the aspects you are referring to were not impacted. Isn't this what Jones' point was in saying, "Do not bring His mind into this?"

Thanks, Arnold! I'm glad to be back. Strange things happen on this earth - long vacation periods can become tiresome.

Three aspects - physical, intellectual and moral. As I see it, propensities of disobedience are clearly within the moral aspect.

I think those things which have to do with moral aspects and to us but not to Christ are not hereditary inclinations, such as Haskell spoke of, in reference to Christ's taking our nature.

Right. But when the SOP says that we need a transformation of nature, she must have had the holistic idea in mind, right?

Of course. Our sinful flesh cannot be transformed.

But she says we are born with propensities of disobedience. Is this within the moral/spiritual realm of our nature or not?

Are you talking about the Baker letter? Or did you have something else in mind? If so, I'd like to see it.

Ellen White taught that Christ took our sinful nature, and that was understood to be "fallen humanity with all its hereditary inclinations."

From W. W. Prescott:

Adam failed in his place, and by the offence of one many were made sinners. Jesus Christ gave Himself, not only for us, but to us, uniting Himself to the family, in order that He might take the place of the first Adam, and as head of the family win back what was lost by the first Adam. The righteousness of Jesus Christ is a representative righteousness, just as the sin of Adam was a representative sin, and Jesus Christ, as the second Adam, gathered to Himself the whole family.

But since the first Adam took his place, there has been a change, and humanity is sinful humanity. The power of righteousness has been lost. To redeem man from the place into which he had fallen, Jesus Christ comes, and takes the very flesh now borne by humanity; He comes in sinful flesh, and takes the case where Adam tried it and failed. He became, not a man, but He became flesh; He became human, and gathered all humanity unto Himself, embraced it in His own infinite mind, and stood as the representative of the whole human family.

Adam was tempted at the very first on the question of appetite. Christ came, and after a forty days' fast the devil tempted Him to use His divine power to feed Himself. And notice, it was in sinful flesh that He was tempted, not the flesh in which Adam fell. This is wondrous truth, but I am wondrous glad that it is so. It follows at once that by birth, by being born into the same family, Jesus Christ is my brother in the flesh, "for which cause He is not ashamed to call them brethren." Heb. 2:11. He has come into the family, identified Himself with the family, is both father of the family and brother of the family. As father of the family, He stands for the family. He came to redeem the family, condemning sin in the flesh, uniting divinity with flesh of sin. Jesus Christ made the connection between God and man, that the divine spirit might rest upon humanity. He made the way for humanity.