In a recent Bible study published by Doug Batchelor the statement is made that whenever anyone comes along claiming to have had a dream or vision - we are naturally suspicious.

How true that is.

This thread will look at specific examples such as Ellen White, Christ and Paul to see how their contemporaries found it very very "difficult" to accept them as a living contemporary prophet.

What are the driving motives for rejecting anyone in any age after the bible was canonized?

1. All of our doctrines are to be tested "Sola Scriptura" so they stand or fall based on the content of the canonized text. That means no creating "new doctrine" based on Ellen White, or Agabus, or Philip's 4 daughters or the people of Corinth in 1Cor 14 or Matteson (quoted by Ellen White) or Loughborough (also having inspired dreams quoted by Ellen White)... etc

So we would be instinctively inclined to 'keep things simple" and simply ignore them all. Stick with the canonized text.

2. All living prophets (the real ones) have the problem of a cloud of naysayers with he-said she-said arguments as well as a host of other arguments that we will look at leveled against Christ and Paul and Ellen White that are not of the he-said she-said variety.

3. All living prophets bring with them the "problem" for their contemporaries - that EVEN if you happen to agree with every word published by said prohpet in their ministry -- you don't know what they might say "tomorrow".

4. In the case of all the prophets of history that we review here we will find that their life, character and methods were questioned by their believing contemporaries -- those among God's people, and that they were not "popular" with the accepted Bible believing leadership of their day.

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By contrast -- deceased prophets are much easier to deal with.

1. No worry about their saying something "tomorrow" that will cut across your ideal for a prophet. Whatever they have to say -- has been said.

2. The naysaying crowd that surrounded them - is probably also deceased - which means "no new" eyewitness claims can be raised against the deceased prophet. (assuming enough time has passed). All the detracting arguments are already "known" and so also are the responding counter arguments.

3. If they have been deceased long "enough" then in the case of true prophets - -there is some "accepting" group that has organized that has a formal leadership that fully embraces that prophet -- which means you can easily fit into the comfortable mode of a context where recognized and accepted church leadership (within that group) is embracing the prophet in question.

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There are probably even more reasons why living prophets are harder to accept than the deceased ones - but this is for starters.

So now let's look at some historic examples -- starting with Christ and then going to Ellen White -- of this human condition that makes acceptance of a contemporary prophet so problematic for those actually alive at the time.

in Christ,

Bob

Notice the "details" in the disconfirming evidence against Christ as perceived not only by Christ's brothers - but to some degree by Mary herself.

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Evidence that it was not “easy” even for Jesus’ family to accept what He was doing.

http://egwdatabase.whiteestate.org/nxt/g...hapter01282.htm

Chap. 33 - Who Are My Brethren?

The sons of Joseph were far from being in sympathy with Jesus in His work. The reports that reached them in regard to His life and labors filled them with astonishment and dismay. They heard that He devoted entire nights to prayer, that through the day He was thronged by great companies of people, and did not give Himself time so much as to eat. His friends felt that He was wearing Himself out by His incessant labor; they were unable to account for His attitude toward the Pharisees, and there were some who feared that His reason was becoming unsettled. {DA 321.1}

His brothers heard of this, and also of the charge brought by the Pharisees that He cast out devils through the power of Satan. They felt keenly the reproach that came upon them through their relation to Jesus. They knew what a tumult His words and works created, and were not only alarmed at His bold statements, but indignant at His denunciation of the scribes and Pharisees. They decided that He must be persuaded or constrained to cease this manner of labor, and they induced Mary to unite with them, thinking that through His love for her they might prevail upon Him to be more prudent. {DA 321.2}

It was just before this that Jesus had a second time performed the miracle of healing a man possessed, blind and dumb, and the Pharisees had reiterated the charge, "He casteth out devils through the prince of the devils." Matt. 9:34.

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This becomes all the more "instructive" when we consider that in Matt 23:30 Christ points to the fact that the contemporary church leadership of His day claimed "If we had been living in the days of our fathers WE would not have been partners with them in shedding the blood of the prophets" - this spoken by they who would soon shed the blood of the Messiah Himself! How blind the human heart is too it's own condition!

Let's unpack that statement in Desire of Ages (above) for a minute.

What say you?

in Christ,

Bob

In the previous case we have the example of very close family to Jesus - and how they viewed the unwelcomed methods and teaching of Christ as well as their objection to his innexplicable (to them) attacks on well-accepted church leadership --

But what about those who HAD chosen to cast their lot with Christ -- surely these contemporaries with Christ found it easy to accept His ministry, methods and status as one sent from God?

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Evidence that it was hard for Christ’s contemporaries to stick with Him.

DA Chpt 40: A night on the Lake

http://egwdatabase.whiteestate.org/nxt/g...hapter01289.htm

DA pg 379-380

The disciples had not put off immediately from the land, as Jesus directed them. They waited for a time, hoping that He would come to
380
them. But as they saw that darkness was fast gathering, they "entered into a ship, and went over the sea toward Capernaum." They had left Jesus with dissatisfied hearts, more impatient with Him than ever before since acknowledging Him as their Lord. They murmured because they had not been permitted to proclaim Him king. They blamed themselves for yielding so readily to His command. They reasoned that if they had been more persistent they might have accomplished their purpose. {DA 379.2}

Unbelief was taking possession of their minds and hearts. Love of honor had blinded them. They knew that Jesus was hated by the Pharisees, and they were eager to see Him exalted as they thought He should be. To be united with a teacher who could work mighty miracles, and yet to be reviled as deceivers, was a trial they could ill endure. Were they always to be accounted followers of a false prophet? Would Christ never assert His authority as king? Why did not He who possessed such power reveal Himself in His true character, and make their way less painful? Why had He not saved John the Baptist from a violent death? Thus the disciples reasoned until they brought upon themselves great spiritual darkness. They questioned, Could Jesus be an impostor, as the Pharisees asserted? {DA 380.1}

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The point here is to learn from lessons of the past rather than simply repeating them.

This is a point that Paul makes in 1Cor 10 -- we should take it seriously.

It is amazing that even the closest ones -- the "twelve" were having such "could Jesus be an imposter as the Pharisees assert" thoughts taken seriously.

in Christ,

Bob

From my perspective, most "unpopular prophets" were unpopular because they brought an unpopular message, and not because people suspected they were not true prophets. For example, Ahab didn't like Elijah too well--but not because he suspected Elijah was a false prophet...no, not at all. Ahab well knew the truthfulness of Elijah's prophecy, and yet he still was trying to kill all the prophets of God during Elijah's time, and the time of no rain.

Usually, the false prophets are somewhat more popular, because they present a soothing message, or one which people find more agreeable.

To the discerning, a prophet's popularity is no indication of his truthfulness, but the message itself will bear testimony to it.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

The term "False prophet" in the quote below is an indication that someone did not think Christ was a true prophet.

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DA Chpt 40: A night on the Lake

http://egwdatabase.whiteestate.org/nxt/g...hapter01289.htm

DA pg 379-380

The disciples had not put off immediately from the land, as Jesus directed them. They waited for a time, hoping that He would come to
380
them. But as they saw that darkness was fast gathering, they "entered into a ship, and went over the sea toward Capernaum." They had left Jesus with dissatisfied hearts, more impatient with Him than ever before since acknowledging Him as their Lord. They murmured because they had not been permitted to proclaim Him king. They blamed themselves for yielding so readily to His command. They reasoned that if they had been more persistent they might have accomplished their purpose. {DA 379.2}

Unbelief was taking possession of their minds and hearts. Love of honor had blinded them. They knew that Jesus was hated by the Pharisees, and they were eager to see Him exalted as they thought He should be. To be united with a teacher who could work mighty miracles, and yet to be reviled as deceivers, was a trial they could ill endure. Were they always to be accounted followers of a false prophet? Would Christ never assert His authority as king? Why did not He who possessed such power reveal Himself in His true character, and make their way less painful? Why had He not saved John the Baptist from a violent death? Thus the disciples reasoned until they brought upon themselves great spiritual darkness. They questioned, Could Jesus be an impostor, as the Pharisees asserted? {DA 380.1}

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What is worse - the desciples themselves were evaluating Jesus' actions on that day and those actions were leading them to suppose that maybe the accusations of the Pharisees were right.

Using the "insight of GOD" we can see into their hearts (vie inspiration telling us what was going on - in 20-20 hindsight) and see a problem in their thinking.

very easy to do with dead prophet scenarios.

Not at all easy when YOU are the "contemporary" which is the problem the disciples had -- and is the problem the Pharisees had with the earthly life of Christ. A problem we don't have at all with Him.

in Christ,

Bob

When it was reported of Ellen White that ALL of Battle Creek leadership had lost confidence in her testimonies -- the question was asked "why is that" and the answer given was "because her LIFE does not measure up to her testimonies".

(As we are told in Vol 1 Testimonies -- Testimony #13)

in Christ,

Bob

In Matt 12 when the claim is made that Christ did His work through "the power of Satan" the claim is not ONLY being made -- that He is a false prophet - it is that He is manifesting the power of Satan.


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Evidence that it was not “easy” even for Jesus’ family to accept what He was doing.

http://egwdatabase.whiteestate.org/nxt/g...hapter01282.htm

Chap. 33 - Who Are My Brethren?

The sons of Joseph were far from being in sympathy with Jesus in His work. The reports that reached them in regard to His life and labors filled them with astonishment and dismay.

...

His brothers heard of this, and also of the charge brought by the Pharisees that He cast out devils through the power of Satan. They felt keenly the reproach that came upon them through their relation to Jesus. They knew what a tumult His words and works created, and were not only alarmed at His bold statements, but indignant at His denunciation of the scribes and Pharisees. They decided that He must be persuaded or constrained to cease this manner of labor, and they induced Mary to unite with them, thinking that through His love for her they might prevail upon Him to be more prudent. {DA 321.2}

It was just before this that Jesus had a second time performed the miracle of healing a man possessed, blind and dumb, and the Pharisees had reiterated the charge, "He casteth out devils through the prince of the devils." Matt. 9:34.

==================================================================


in Christ,

Bob

Obviously my point here is not that Christ or Ellen White or Paul were false prohpets. It is that many of their contemporaries, church leadership (and yes even their own disciples at times) would accuse them of being false prophets - and yes even in some cases those contemporaries accused them of working by the power of Satan.

For example - on Monday's Lesson Feb 22 of this quarterly "During Ellen White's lifetime critics questioned her integrity and have continued to do so ever since her death. She has been accused of deception, falsehood and lies" (SS Quarterly Feb 22, 2009 pg 73).

An example we should all pray to avoid following.


It is more than "a little instructive" that on this past week's SS lesson pg 59 there is a quote from Vol 1 of Testimonies - pg 584-585 about Ellen White's ministry including that of reproving the wrongs found in individual lives of or CONTEMPORARIES.

It is interesting that this quote just so happens to be from Testimony#13 where we find Battle Creek Leadership claiming that they had no confidence in Ellen White's Testimonies because in their contrived view -- her "life contradicts" her testimonies. 1T594... Ellen White's reponse? "I felt cut loose from everyone at the head of the work AND was virtually standing alone. I dared not trust anyone!" 1T 596-497.

How shocking that this should be the course followed by Battle Creek Leadership against the contemporary prophet of their day!! How horrific the thought that a single SDA leader should THEN go on to follow that same course of action today!

Who then was there to support Ellen White when the church leadership of her day was "throwing her out"? It was those living in HER day that she called prophets! She places their inspired visions on the very next page ... 1T 597-604 and adds her own comment to their inspired dreams included in the Testimonies for the Church via a qoute from scripture " the Prophet who has a dream, let him TELL a dream" 1T602

May we EVER follow Ellen White's example of emracing the inspired dreams of our contemporaries should God lead us across the path of one of them. May we never follow the example of Battle Creek in condeming the contemporary prophet of their day.

in Christ,

Bob

So did Ellen White also meet the charge that her work was "OF the devil"??

Let us see...



How "instructive" that those specifically whose errors have been pointed out through the dreams of a contemporary prophet -- should be key in making the charge "visions of the devil" against the contemporary prophet in their day.



Again – how instructive it is that this very Sargent Robbins whose errors had been pointed out in one of Ellen White’s dreams – is almost an anti-ellen-white-evangelist seeking to persuade others to turn against her visions and actually felling "blessed" by God for declaring the work of the Holy Spirit to be "of the devil". The very thing Christ warns us not to do in Matt 12:30-32.


in Christ,

Bob

It seems like a general tendency to reject that which stings us.

And in studying the example of Ellen White - do we also find that there is some special temptation that presents itself to the editors and literary assitants of a contemporary prophet?

Indeed we do --

On page 42 Jan 28 (Wednesday, Lesson Five, SS Quarterly Q1 2009 – “The Inspiration of Prophets”)
We have a reference to Marian Davis as being Ellen White’s editor (“Literary assistant”). But in fact as late as 1895 it was Fannie Bolton AND Marian Davis --- not just Marian Davis. So why no mention Fannie Bolton?




It is hard to imagine the difficulties that confront a contemporary prophet -- and also the contemporary believers alive at the time - who are to have to brave through the storms of each of these accusations as they occur over the life of that prophet.

in Christ,

Bob

And rightly so. For it is written:

Matthew
24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if [it were] possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Although nowadays I suspect most of us would swallow the messages of such messengers hook, line, and sinker. We love a good magic show, especially when we're called up front to participate. Pick me! Pick me! we cry unashamedly. God forbid.

1 John
4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

Isaiah
8:19 And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead?
8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, [it is] because [there is] no light in them.

Context is everything - as it turns out.

Since this topic is on the subject of contemporary prophets and the examples given are of the Pharisees accusing Christ of using the power of demons to do his work (Matt 9:34, 12:24) --
http://www.maritime-sda-online.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=108340#Post108340

Of Christ being called "a false prophet" -
http://www.maritime-sda-online.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=108341#Post108341

as well as the case in Ellen White's day of her visions and dreams being labeled "of the devil"

http://www.maritime-sda-online.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=108394#Post108394


I suppose it is only right that you should bring up the subject of familiar spirits. I agree that this is very likely the text that the Pharisees were using.

But as you also included vs 20 -- I think it points to the fact that had they actually taken the time to do substantive, solid Bible testing (in a manner that WOULD hold up to close review) - they would have found that Christ's ministry was of God and so also with the case of Ellen White.

Simply "making the of-the-devil accusation" without a case that held true from scripture - was their error.

Hence Christ's statment in Matt 12:30-32 that every OTHER sin would be forgiven except for the sin of speaking against the Holy Spirit.



Some may argue that Christ was being "too severe" on this point -- we should probably study that. Certainly the contemporary church leadership of His day would have made that claim in response to this statement by Christ.

in Christ,

Bob

In terms of "solid Bible study" here is a good example of a text

1 John
4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

That needs "the rest of the passage" quoted to set the context.

2 By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God;
3 and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God; this is the spirit of the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming, and now it is already in the world.

Certainly we can understand how Ellen White's contemporary naysayers would have quoted vs 1 without vs 2 and 3. Then the Adventists would have come back with vs 2 and 3 to show the full meaning also showing that Ellen White's visions/dreams affirmed the fact that God the Son came to earth in real human flesh -- the CreatOR entering in as the CreatED (a body thou hast prepared for Me) to walk and live among us. To which the response would likely have been "well that is not really the test" from those who were making the accusations against Ellen White but not using sound Bible arguments that hold up under close review.

The lesson for us today (in the true spirit of 1Cor 10) is that "solid Bible study" that holds up to "close review" is needed when doing the evaluation if one is to avoid the errors of the Pharisees or those contemporaries who accused Ellen White.

in Christ,

Bob

Bob, I believe we are living at a time when the likelihood Jesus will return within the next few years is more possible than at any time in the last 20 years. The "shaking" could intensify very soon as the Straight Testimony begins to be more widely and boldly preached. For this reason I am anticipating the efforts of evil angels through the medium of spiritualism to include messages encouraging people to legislate Sunday laws. To deceive SDAs into going along with the mark of the beast, evil angels must work with clever subtlety. Knowing this, and expecting it, makes me more cautious and discerning than ever before.

Matthew
24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if [it were] possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

I know of no one who I believe God is using at this time to guide His remnant flock. No one I know of has the gift of prophecy or the spirit of prophecy. I suspect God will raise up men and women here and there from time to time to lead and guide us through the troubling times ahead of us. But as of now I know of no one whom God is thus employing.

I did not mean to suggest that in all these cases where Christ and Ellen White and others are being called false prophets and being accused of working by the power of Satan - that those who accuse them did not have good reason to be wary of actual false prophets.

Certainly even we today have many examples of false prophets in pentecostal and charismatic services - prophesying weekly as well as more famous examples in the recent past such as Jean Dixon etc. We even have Adventists who have come out of charismatic and pentecostal groups claiming to prophesy as SDAs.

False prophets are certainly plentiful and certainly to be rejected. No question.

But in Matt 22 - we are given the case of Pharisees asserting that they would never make the mistake of their forefathers in condemning the prophets while they themselves already have plans in place for killing the Messiah (See Matt 12).

Christ actually stops to comment on that paradox.




And yet as we saw in Matt 12 – they make these claims while planning to kill the Messiah (who of course they say is not the Messiah).


Notice the rather harsh (but not unChrist-like) summary that Christ makes of that situation –



Surely Christ had to have known of the false-prophet-rich history of the Jewish people at that time that also included a legacy of false messiahs. And yet Christ holds them strictly accountable for this rejection of the true even given that cloud of false prophet history.

But the key to not repeating the mistakes from the past – is to learn from them. Which often means noticing all the inconvenient details.


Surely we all can agree that they could easily make the sweeping assertion "I know of no one today that God is using in the role of Messiah" - as if merely speaking it made it so.

And yet obviously in the frailty of their human nature they were missing something in those sweeping assertions. Ellen White was faced with the same "no prophet in our day" assertions not only of fellow Christians - but even of majority of Adventists and yes even of some of the early Seventh-day Adventists to the point of Battle Creek leadership abandoning support of her ministry.

in Christ,

Bob

How true that is.

in Christ,

Bob

Here is an indication that "unpopular prophet" responses may very well be the trend for the future.


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As long as individuals are content with a theory of truth, and are yet lacking in the daily operation of the Spirit of God upon the heart, which is manifested in outward transformation of character, they are cutting themselves
57
off from the qualification that would fit them for greater efficiency in the Master's work. Those who are devoid of the Holy Spirit cannot be faithful watchmen upon the walls of Zion; for they are blind to the work that ought to be done , and do not give the trumpet a certain sound. {2SM 56.2}

The baptism of the Holy Ghost as on the day of Pentecost will lead to a revival of true religion and to the performance of many wonderful works. Heavenly intelligences will come among us, and men will speak as they are moved upon by the Holy Spirit of God. But should the Lord work upon men as He did on and after the day of Pentecost, many who now claim to believe the truth would know so very little of the operation of the Holy Spirit that they would cry, "Beware of fanaticism." They would say of those who were filled with the Spirit, "These men are full of new wine. " {2SM 57.1}

The time is not far off now when men will want a much closer relation to Christ, a much closer union with His Holy Spirit, than ever they have had, or will have, unless they give up their will and their way, and submit to God's will and God's way. The great sin of those who profess to be Christians is that they do not open the heart to receive the Holy Spirit. When souls long after Christ, and seek to become one with Him, then those who are content with the form of godliness, exclaim "Be careful, do not go to extremes. " When the angels of heaven come among us, and work through human agents, there will be solid, substantial conversions, after the order of the conversions after the day of Pentecost. {2SM 57.2}

Now brethren, be careful and do not go into or try to create human excitement. But while we should be careful not to go into human excitement, we should not be among those who will raise inquiries and cherish doubts in reference to the work of the Spirit of God; for there will be those who will question and criticize when the Spirit of God takes possession of men and women, because their own hearts are not moved, but are cold and unimpressible. --Letter 27, 1894.
58 {2SM 57.3}
http://egwdatabase.whiteestate.org/nxt/g...hapter04619.htm

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