In a recent discussion on this board - someone mentioned a little surprise at the very fundamentalist position we find in Adventist Doctrine.

(I suppose it is like the old "Catholic or Christian" argument where now Catholics are sorta waking up to the fact that they indeed need to be arguing that they ARE Christian instead of the "I am not Christian I am Catholic" arguments they used to make in the 50's and 60's).

Adventisms teaches a fundamentalist view of the Bible.

1. The Bible is literally true.
2. Literal Creation week (and life on earth < 10,000 years, long age lifespans preflood).
3. Literal hell fire burning literal people in the Rev 20 "second death" lake of fire.
4. Literal millennium - 1000 years of Rev 20
5. Literal bodily first resurrection - literal rapture of the church in 1Thess 4
6. Literal resurrection of Christ
7. Literal virgin birth of Christ
8. Literal substitutionary atoning death of Christ - paying our "certificate of debt"NASB
9. Literal second Coming
10. The Bible is "the Word of God" (in fact it is the "VOICE of God speaking to the soul")
11. Jesus Christ is the ONLY way to the Father -- the ONLY door of salvation - the ONLY savior from sin.
12. The Catholic church is the woman of Rev 17 and the first beast of Rev 13 that wars against the saints.


Fundamentalists get crucified out in mainstream press for holding to those very views.

But if you dont' get out much - you may think that because Adventists believe in

1. the Investigative Judgment of Dan 7,
2. the Ten Commandments of Ex 20,
3. the Sabbath as "literally true and binding"
4. the continuation of 1Cor 12 spiritual gifts even to the point that Ellen White was a true prophet
5. Soul Sleep: People do not go to heaven or hell immediately at death.
6. Rejection of the man made tradition regarding OSAS

-- that this makes us something "less than" fundamentalist. It does not.

At worst it makes us a distinct version of fundamentalist at best it makes us MORE fundamentalist than most since we take soul sleep to be literally true and hold to the continued validity of 1Cor 12.

Hint: When our non-SDA liberal critics make their complaints against "fundamentalist Christians" it is always in the form of the first list above being attacked.

Thoughts?

in Christ,

Bob

Assuming the list is correct, it looks like Adventists are Fundamentalists. But Maxwellians will have a problem with #3.

If you're talking about me, that's not at all what I said. If you're referring to something else, I'd be very interested in seeing it.

Regarding Adventism and Fundamentalism, Adventists are not Fundamentalists because of how we view inspiration and revelation. The fundamentalist idea is predicated on verbal inspiration, which holds that the Bible represents the mind of God, and that the Bible writers basically took dictation, writing God's words down for Him. In contrast, Adventists believe in what is commonly described as "thought inspiration," which is a bit of a misnomer, but is, at least, quite a bit more accurate than the verbal inspiration idea.

A detailed discussion of inspiration and revelation can be found in Selected Messages Book 1.

When I point out to my non-SDA fundamentalist friends that we view scripture as "The Word of God" and fully accept 2Pet 1:21 "men of old moved by the Holy Spirit SPOKE from GOD" so much so that Ellen White could write that the Bible is "the very VOICE OF GOD speaking to the soul" - they usually agree on that point and then want to move on to something like OSAS.

in Christ,

Bob

Regarding this list:



Regarding 3, it has always been debated within Adventism whether the fire in Revelation is literal or not, even going well back into the 19th century. Kevin, who used to post here, was well familiar with the history of this. I've haven't seen him (i.e., virtually) for quite awhile.

Regarding 8, as stated, Maxwellians in general would not have a problem with this, as they believe in the substitutionary atonement of Christ. It's the question of penal substitution that they would take issue with.

Regarding 11, Adventist belief on this point is different than many other denominations, which would deny that heathens can be saved. Adventists believe heathens can be saved, but there salvation would be through Christ, although they wouldn't be aware of this fact.

Regarding 3, 4, 5, and 12, of course our eschatology is different than those of other denominations. It's odd to include these eschatological points under a "Funadmentalist" heading, as the "secret rapture" theory is far and away the predominant view among Fundamentalists. It's certainly not true that Fundamentalists get taken to take by the media for "these very views," (at least, these particular ones) because they don't hold them.

1. The reason that literal 2nd coming and literal rapture are included is because that IS a huge difference between libs and fundamentalists AND fundamentalists DO allow for pre-trib, mid-trib AND post-Trib(that would be us)... versions of the rapture as long as you have a visible 2nd coming, a literal resurrection and all of it pre-mill.

2. There is no hint at all in the 28FB that Adventists do not think the same fire that reformats the surface of the earth is what is killing the wicked OR that we do not believe that wicked are punished for their sins as the law demands in the real fire of the "lake of fire".

Hence:





Questions for the reader.

1. What does the phrase “His fury upon all their armies” refer too in the text above”?
2. What does the phrase “Suffer the full penalty of sin in the fires” refer to – in the text above?
3. Is it the same as the phrase above “The full penalty of the LAW has been visited ”??
4. When the text speaks of those who “suffer for many days” does this mean all or just some?
5. When the text says that by comparison “he is still to live and suffer on” after all others have perished… is that fair?
6. In the text the argument is made that in this way “the demands of justice have been met” is that really true as you see it?
7. In the text above when it is said that ”punishment is far greater” for Satan than for others suffering there – are ALL punished??

in Christ,

Bob

28FB document -- FB#27




Bottom line -- the idea that the 28FB implies doubt that this --



Is speaking about fire -- is missing from the document.

The point is that we end up with a very literal version of hell fire in Rev 20 where "real fire burns real people" in a real lake of fire such that God "destroys BOTH body AND soul in fiery hell" Matt 10:28 - which is a literal and fundamentalist position on hell that goes farther than many fundamentalist non-SDAs would LIKE to go.

in Christ,

Bob

You're going off topic, Bob. We've got another thread discussing these things. The purpose of this topic has to do with your ideas regarding Adventistism and Fundamentalism (strange bedfellows).

I explained why Adventists are not fundamentalists, which has to do with our view of inspiration and revelation. I also explained why a number of items on your list do not belong there.

Regarding the eschatological items, if you wrote something like we believe in a literal, visible Second coming which is pre-millenium, that would be fine, but when you put specific Adventist ideas, then it doesn't fit, since Fundamentalists do not believe these things.

One of the items in my "fundamentalist list" was the literal hell fire item - and I wanted to show that this is indeed what we see in both the 28FB and EGW when we look at those details.

Not intending to debate them here -- just note that they are included in the list for a reason.

As for Fundamentalists -- recall that there is no such thing as the North America first church of fundamentalism as if they are all one denomination. They include pre-trib, mid-trib and post-trib -- but they are all pre-mill. I simply point out that we fit into the pre-mill post-trib group within that broad scope of fundamentalist.



in Christ,

Bob

The 27th FB simply says:



Everybody agrees with this. There's nothing in here about what you've been sharing (specifically the idea that God supernaturally keeps people alive so that they can be burned alive to pay for their sins).