Rarely do I have hard temptations. I'm usually bothered by things I shouldn't do but have already done - that is, by a word I shouldn't have said, by a thought I shouldn't have had, by a selfish attitude I shouldn't have exhibited, etc. As Ellen White says,

Temptations from without find an answering chord within the heart, and the feet turn imperceptibly toward evil. {MH 451.2}

I don't consider this to be a real temptation, for I didn't really have the option to choose whether I would yield to it or not; it was something automatical, and everything I can do is to confess the sin after having committed it. Why is that? Because of my inward corruption. But what I have verified during all those years of my Christian walk is that the closer we are to Christ, the rarer this kind of occurrence becomes.

Now, I consider a real temptation to be when I have a choice and have to decide, like, Will I lie, or do something illicit, to escape this difficult situation, or to obtain that advantage? Will I compromise my principles in order not to displease this person, or in order not to be ridiculed, or mistreated, or persecuted? These, to me, are real temptations, hard temptations.


We don't have enough elements to discuss this. I don't know how the several factors which are included in the sinful nature exactly affect us. We know that besides the sinful tendencies there is also a problem with the will. So, although Ellen White does say that sinful tendencies can be eliminated from the life on this earth, she doesn't say our sinful nature will be removed before Christ's coming. Therefore, although the 144,000 are a special group, I'm not sure how things will exactly work in relation to them.
One thing, however, is certain - Ellen White speaks of inward corruption and inward sin as opposed to outward temptation. So yes, I believe that inward temptations corrupt.

You don't think having a sinful nature makes these temptations more difficult?



So you think the genetically transferred inclinations we have can be eliminated? You also think Christ's assumed sinful nature came with these genetically transferred inclinations pre-eliminated? (i.e., Christ didn't have to deal with these, since He never had them).



What you believe seems similar to the Holy Flesh idea. They believed:

a.Christ came in the nature of Adam before the fall.
b.He would have been sinful otherwise.
c.We need to be like Christ to be a part of the 144,000.
d.Therefore we need to be rid of our sinful nature.

You believe:

a.Christ came with a nature which did not tempt Him from within.
b.He would have been sinful otherwise.
c.We need to be like Christ to be a part of the 144,000.
d.Therefore we need to be rid of temptations from within.

It terms of substance, this idea seems the same as the Holy Flesh idea. The terminology is different (they spoke of "sinful nature" and "the nature of Adam before the fall" whereas you speak of "temptations from within"), and, of course, you don't have the idea of a fanatical experience they had to purge our nature, seeing that these inward temptations fall by the wayside as we are sanctified. You haven't said this, but I'm inferring it, as I don't see what the alternative would be (by "this" I mean that our inward temptations fall by the wayside as we are sanctified).

Rosangela, thank you for answering my question. And, thank you for stating your position clearly. The idea that we can reach a point where we are no longer tempted from within sounds wonderful. Ellen wrote, "It is the privilege of every believer in Christ to possess Christ's nature, a nature far above that which Adam forfeited by transgression." {UL 18.3} She also observed:


So, if I'm hearing you right, and I hope I am because it sounds so thoroughly amazing and awesome, we can expect to reach a point where our nature ceases to be sinful, where, like Jesus' human nature, it is free of any and all inward corruption, free of the hereditary evil propensities (inclinations, tendencies) which war against us, which tempt us to sin. "We should have no misgivings in regard to the perfect sinlessness of the human nature of" Mike, Tom, and Rosangela.

1. When do people reach this point? What saith the Lord?

It seems temptation has to do with character, and the more exalted the character, the more difficult the temptation:

The temptations that he [Christ] endured were as much more severe than those which come upon us as his character is more exalted than ours. {RH, March 9, 1886 par. 13}


Ellen White says that faith works by love and "purifies the soul from all objectionable tendencies, hereditary and cultivated" {ST, May 10, 1910 par. 9}. She also says that "the tendencies which have been biased in a wrong direction are turned in a right direction." {6BC 1080.5}


No, because I'm speaking about sinful tendencies, not sinful nature. Sinful nature seems to encompass more than just sinful tendencies.

Well, Mike, all we know is that even the 144,000 "can see little good [in their whole lives]. ... They are fully conscious of their weakness and unworthiness." {GC 618, 619}

Because of His exalted character, He was able to resist more difficult temptations. This doesn't address the issue of temptations being more difficult because of having a sinful nature. Isn't it simple logic that having sinful natures makes temptations more difficult? The only alternatives would be that it makes temptations easier, or has no impact. I can't imagine how anyone who has a sinful nature would say that having such a nature has no impact on one.



The soul is purified, but we don't change genetically. Or is this what you think?

It seems to me there's only two possibilities here, if you're going to take the position that she means that hereditary tendencies are removed:

1.We don't receive any tendencies genetically.
2.The tendencies we receive genetically are removed.

The first would be possible if hereditary tendencies are not referring to genetic tendencies (such as pre-natal, etc.)



This seems like just a semantic difference, not one of substance.

For example:

Holy Flesh

a.Christ came in the nature of Adam before the fall.
b.He would have been sinful otherwise.
c.We need to be like Christ to be a part of the 144,000.
d.Therefore we need to be rid of our sinful nature.

You:

a.Christ came with a nature which did not tempt Him from within.
b.He would have been sinful otherwise.
c.We need to be like Christ to be a part of the 144,000.
d.Therefore we need to be rid of temptations from within.


You agree with a-d, don't you? If not, please correct my list, as I don't wish to misrepresent your thought.

Tom, I wish I had more time to comment here, but here is what I learn while researching with someone passionate with genetics.

Basically, when we are born it is proven that a lot of mental disposition(brain neuron connection) can be transferred to offsprings: so we can inherit our parents fears, hates, personalities, musical aptitude, etc... So of course, once a newborn, environmental triggers will strenghten these neurological pathways.

So the way I see what Rosangela & SOP is saying is that, once you become born again Christian these inherit and well-exercised, or even new bad pathways will not be excercised as much. A new "spirit" will habit the mind and with time these old sin oriented neuro pathways will be less employed and these connection to those memories, habits, will be removed. The mind is very "plastic" and if we have Jesus "spirit" living in us, new connections will be formed and we will become a new creature in Christ. The body is the same, but our mind will be transformed, renewed. Only Christ spirit can truly change these sinful inherit or cultivated neural pathways.

Sinful impulses and habits mainly comes from the mind (strong neuro-connection).

I agree with Rosangela, exterior temptation is far greather than interior temptation. Because Christ was God, he was tempted far greather than any man on earth.

"For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high [places]." Gal 6:12

Just a quickie.

I think it's time to review a couple of my old posts on the source of Christ's temptations.

First, the explanation: primary source of Christ's temptations

Then, the mathematical proof: Lesson #3 - The Reality of His HUMANITY

Salut Arnold,

I did go read your posts. And I agree with you and find this topic very important for us to understand properly and differentiate between our nature and Christ nature. I don't claim I know this for I just started to reflect on this matter on my own and do want to be corrected if I stray from the Truth. I understand that you went over and over this topics with the same people again and again. So I hope you can bear with someone new and I will go read some pass post to save you some typing.

What I've expressed is what I know versus genetics and I'm trying to relate it with what Rosangela shared.

Did you flag me because you thought I was advocating "holy flesh" theory? I don't believe in that. As far as I know from genetics; it's not possible. If you bring Adam or Eve here to live in our hostile environment I don't think they would survive long; because genetically they are not equipped to handle the pollution and germs, and degradation of foods and other environmental differences when comparing Eden to Today. It took thousands of years of adaptation. So I don't believe we ever can have a “holy flesh” if you take that term as perfect genetic makeup as Adam and Eve. That’s why the Bible says that we will be changed at the 2nd coming and brought to Heaven in a perfect environment.

So I agree, that we will have our “sinful flesh”. Till then, I believe that the spirit of God dwelling in us, will give us power to choose God’s way, and then by abiding in Jesus, will make physical changes in our minds by making different neuro connected pathways when experiencing victories in sins as we submit to His will. These can be internal or external "MORAL" victories which the experience mostly happen in our brain via exercising submitting our will to God's Will. These victories are registered in our brain. Right? To resist the strong external moral temptation will be engaging the same neuro pathways by submiting our will.

So go ahead, correct me and go right to the point.

I'm reminded of the following:

Christ gave Himself for our sins, "that He might deliver us from this present evil world." He will take from us that which He bought, which is our sinfulness. In so doing, He delivers us from this "present evil world." That shows us that "this present evil world" is nothing but our own sinful selves. It is "the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life." 1Joh.2:16. We ourselves make all the evil there is in the world. It is man that has made the world evil. "By one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned." Rom.5:12. We need not try to throw the blame upon somebody else; we ourselves provide all the evil that can possibly injure us.

The story is told of a man whose besetting sin was a violent temper. He would frequently become very angry, but he laid all the blame upon the people with whom he lived, who were so exasperating. Nobody, he declared, could do right among such people. So he resolved, as many others have done, to "leave the world," and become a hermit. He chose a cave in the forest for his dwelling-place, far from any other human habitation. In the morning he took his jug to a spring near by to get water for his morning meal. The rock was moss-grown, and the continual flow of water had made it very slippery. As he set his jug down under the stream, it slid away. He put it back, and again it was driven away. Two or three times was this repeated, and each time the replacing of the jug was done with increasing energy. Finally the hermit's patience was utterly exhausted, and exclaiming, "I'll see if you'll not stay!" he picked the vessel up and set it down with such vehemence that it was broken to pieces. There was nobody to blame but himself, and he had the good sense to see that it was not the world around him but the world inside of him that made him sin. Doubtless very many can recognize some experience of their own in this little story.

Luther, in his monk's cell, whither he had gone to escape from the world, found his sins more grievous than ever. Wherever we go, we carry the world with us; we have it in our hearts and on our backs,--a heavy, crushing load. We find that when we would do good, "evil is present" with us. Rom.7:21. It is present, always, "this present evil world," until, goaded to despair, we cry out, "O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from this body of death?" Even Christ found His greatest temptations in the desert, far away from human habitations. All these things teach us that hermits and monks are not in God's plan. God's people are the salt of the earth; and salt, no matter how good it is, is of no use if shut up in a box; it must be mingled with that which is to be preserved. (The Glad Tidings, E. J. Waggoner)

Also this:

Has Christ, then, descended to our world and to our level, and in our place obtained complete victory over "the world," only in order that He may sit on the right hand of the Majesty on high, and taunt us with our failures in struggling against sin?--God forbid. Says jesus, "Be of good cheer; I have overcome the world." Now "all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world." 1 John 2:16. In overcoming the world, then, Christ overcame "the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life,"--all things which are "not of the Father."

The world which Christ overcame was in His flesh. (E. J. Hibbard; The Two Laws)