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Re: How does God prevent evil men and angels from exceeding His established limits? [Re: Mountain Man] #109640
03/09/09 07:14 PM
03/09/09 07:14 PM
Tom  Offline
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Yes, I haven't. I'm trying to get to the bottom of your idea of physical force first.

None of the quotes say anything about God's using physical force to restrain evil people, or having angels use physical force to restrain evil people. To answer your question to me indirectly, the quotes point out the means I would have said God uses (none of which mention God's using physical force, or angels using physical force).

But lets' get back to your idea a moment. How do you think God uses physical force to restrain people? You've said He does this through angels. How so?

I'm asking about an invisible force field not simply to be cute, but because that's exactly what it would like, wouldn't it? If an invisible angel were using physical force to force a person to do something, it would look like an invisible force field.

You still haven't explained a mechanism by which physical force is used.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: How does God prevent evil men and angels from exceeding His established limits? [Re: Mountain Man] #109666
03/10/09 01:06 PM
03/10/09 01:06 PM
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Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Satan had questioned whether Jesus was the Son of God. In his summary dismissal he had proof that he could not gainsay. Divinity flashed through suffering humanity. Satan had no power to resist the command. Writhing with humiliation and rage, he was forced to withdraw from the presence of the world's Redeemer. Christ's victory was as complete as had been the failure of Adam. {DA 130.3}


Satan was forced to withdraw.

How?
What evidence from your quote does it show that God or angels used physical force? Would you be saying, "command"?

Re: How does God prevent evil men and angels from exceeding His established limits? [Re: kland] #109729
03/11/09 06:50 PM
03/11/09 06:50 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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Angels are physical beings. They use physical weapons against one another. The combat is severe and intense. “Satan and his angels are unwilling to lose their prey. They contend and battle with the holy angels, and the conflict is severe.” “Heavenly angels fight our battles for us; and co-operating with them, we may be victorious over the powers of evil.”

It also clear that God employs weapons from the arsenal of nature to prevent evil men and angels from exceeding His established limits. And, He has, from time to time, employed secular armies to accomplish His purposes. "Yet even this rash act was overruled by God to accomplish His purposes. Moses was not prepared for his great work. {CC 82.4} "Men are instruments in the hand of God, employed by Him to accomplish His purposes of grace and mercy. {GC 343.2}

"With all their boasted philosophy, men found too late that their wisdom was foolishness, that the Lawgiver is greater than the laws of nature, and that Omnipotence is at no loss for means to accomplish His purposes. "As it was in the days of Noah," "even thus shall it be in the days when the Son of man is revealed." Luke 17:26, 30. {PP 103.3}

God overrules things to play out according to His purposes. "But their own course was overruled by God to bring about the very event that they designed to hinder. {CC 79.2} "The history of Job had shown that suffering is inflicted by Satan, and is overruled by God for purposes of mercy. {DA 471.3} "The very decree condemning the Hebrew children to death had been overruled by God for the training and education of the future leader of His people. {PP 245.1}

“They come from a far country, from the end of heaven, even the LORD, and the weapons of his indignation, to destroy the whole land.” {Isa 13:5} “The LORD hath opened his armoury, and hath brought forth the weapons of his indignation: for this is the work of the Lord GOD of hosts in the land of the Chaldeans.” {Jer 50:25}

Jeremiah
51:20 Thou [art] my battle ax [and] weapons of war: for with thee will I break in pieces the nations, and with thee will I destroy kingdoms;
51:21 And with thee will I break in pieces the horse and his rider; and with thee will I break in pieces the chariot and his rider;
51:22 With thee also will I break in pieces man and woman; and with thee will I break in pieces old and young; and with thee will I break in pieces the young man and the maid;
51:23 I will also break in pieces with thee the shepherd and his flock; and with thee will I break in pieces the husbandman and his yoke of oxen; and with thee will I break in pieces captains and rulers.

"The hand of Omnipotence is at no loss for ways and means to accomplish His purposes. He could reach into the bowels of the earth and call forth His weapons, waters there concealed, to aid in the destruction of the corrupt inhabitants of the old world. . . . {7BC 946.8}

Water will never destroy the earth again, but the weapons of God are concealed in the bowels of the earth, which He will draw forth to unite with the fire from heaven to accomplish His purpose in the destruction of all those who would not receive the message of warning and purify their souls in obeying the truth and being obedient to the laws of God. {7BC 946.9}

In the bowels of the earth God has in reserve the weapons that He will use to destroy the sinful race. Since the Flood, God has used, to destroy wicked cities, both the water and the fire that are concealed in the earth. In the final conflagration God will in His wrath send lightning from heaven that will unite with the fire in the earth. The mountains will burn like a furnace, and pour forth streams of lava. {7BC 946.10}

“The depths of the earth are the Lord's arsenal, whence were drawn weapons to be employed in the destruction of the old world. Waters gushing from the earth united with the waters from heaven to accomplish the work of desolation. Since the Flood, fire as well as water has been God's agent to destroy very wicked cities.” {PP 109.1}

“The bowels of the earth were the Lord's arsenal, from which he drew forth the weapons he employed in the destruction of the old world. Waters in the bowels of the earth gushed forth, and united with the waters from Heaven, to accomplish the work of destruction. Since the flood, God has used both water and fire in the earth as his agents to destroy wicked cities.” {3SG 82.2}

“As he called forth the waters in the earth at the time of the flood, as weapons from his arsenal to accomplish the destruction of the antediluvian race, so at the end of the one thousand years he will call forth the fires in the earth as his weapons which he has reserved for the final destruction, not only of successive generations since the flood, but the antediluvian race who perished by the flood. {3SG 87.1}

The mark of deliverance has been set upon those "that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done." Now the angel of death goes forth, represented in Ezekiel's vision by the men with the slaughtering weapons, to whom the command is given: "Slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children, and women: but come not near any man upon whom is the mark; and begin at My sanctuary." Says the prophet: "They began at the ancient men which were before the house." Ezekiel 9:1-6. The work of destruction begins among those who have professed to be the spiritual guardians of the people. The false watchmen are the first to fall. There are none to pity or to spare. Men, women, maidens, and little children perish together. {GC 656.2}

Quote:
"And I will send an angel before thee; and I will drive out the Canaanite, the Amorite, and the Hittite, and the Perizzite, the Hivite, and the Jebusite."

"And God's anger was kindled because he went: and the angel of the LORD stood in the way for an adversary against him. Now he was riding upon his ass, and his two servants were with him."

"Let them be as chaff before the wind: and let the angel of the LORD chase them. Let their way be dark and slippery: and let the angel of the LORD persecute them."

"And it came to pass, when king Jeroboam heard the saying of the man of God, which had cried against the altar in Bethel, that he put forth his hand from the altar, saying, Lay hold on him. And his hand, which he put forth against him, dried up, so that he could not pull it in again to him."

"And the cloud departed from off the tabernacle; and, behold, Miriam became leprous, white as snow: and Aaron looked upon Miriam, and, behold, she was leprous."

"And it came to pass that night, that the angel of the LORD went out, and smote in the camp of the Assyrians an hundred fourscore and five thousand: and when they arose early in the morning, behold, they were all dead corpses."

"And immediately the angel of the Lord smote him, because he gave not God the glory: and he was eaten of worms, and gave up the ghost."

"But the angel of the Lord by night opened the prison doors, and brought them forth, and said, Go, stand and speak in the temple to the people all the words of this life."

"And when Peter was come to himself, he said, Now I know of a surety, that the Lord hath sent his angel, and hath delivered me out of the hand of Herod, and from all the expectation of the people of the Jews."

"And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years."

"And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, and prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven."

Satan and his angels are unwilling to lose their prey. They contend and battle with the holy angels, and the conflict is severe. And if those who have erred continue to plead, and in deep humility confess their wrongs, angels who excel in strength will prevail and wrench them from the power of the evil angels. {MYP 60.2}

Satan and his host cannot destroy them, for angels that excel in strength will protect them. {9T 17.1} [The] trained army of heaven had come to fight for the people of God, and the Captain of the Lord's host was there to command. {CC 117.3} His people would never know defeat if they would abide under the shadow of the Almighty; for One mightier than angels would fight by their side in every battle. {2BC 999.1}

Satan instigated the scheme in order to rid the earth of those who preserved the knowledge of the true God. But his plots were defeated by a counterpower that reigns among the children of men. Angels that excel in strength were commissioned to protect the people of God, and the plots of their adversaries returned upon their own heads. {5T 450.1}

Satan with all the hosts of evil cannot destroy the weakest of God's saints. Angels that excel in strength will protect them, and in their behalf Jehovah will reveal Himself as a "God of gods," able to save to the uttermost those who have put their trust in Him. {CC 252.5}

We need to understand better than we do the mission of the angels. It would be well to remember that every true child of God has the co-operation of heavenly beings. Invisible armies of light and power attend the meek and lowly ones who believe and claim the promises of God. Cherubim and seraphim, and angels that excel in strength, stand at God's right hand, "all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation." Hebrews 1:14. {AA 154.2}

And there were unseen watchers. Hosts of evil angels were gathered about the place. Had it been possible, the prince of darkness with his apostate army would have kept forever sealed the tomb that held the Son of God. But a heavenly host surrounded the sepulcher. Angels that excel in strength were guarding the tomb, and waiting to welcome the Prince of life. {DA 779.1}

The power and malice of Satan and his host might justly alarm us, were it not that we may find shelter and deliverance in the superior power of our Redeemer. . . . Those who follow Christ are ever safe under His watchcare. Angels that excel in strength are sent from heaven to protect them. The wicked one cannot break through the guard which God has stationed about His people. {FLB 328.6}

Satan will call to his aid legions of his angels to oppose the advance of even one soul, and, if possible, wrest it from the hand of Christ. . . . But if the one in danger perseveres, and in his helplessness casts himself upon the merits of the blood of Christ, our Saviour listens to the earnest prayer of faith, and sends a reinforcement of those angels that excel in strength to deliver him. Satan cannot endure to have his powerful rival appealed to, for he fears and trembles before His strength and majesty. At the sound of fervent prayer, Satan's whole host trembles. {AG 257.3}

We are informed in Scripture as to the number, and the power and glory, of the heavenly beings, of their connection with the government of God, and also of their relation to the work of redemption. "The Lord hath prepared His throne in the heavens; and His kingdom ruleth over all." And, says the prophet, "I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne." In the presence chamber of the King of kings they wait--"angels, that excel in strength," "ministers of His, that do His pleasure," "hearkening unto the voice of His word." Psalm 103:19-21; Revelation 5:11. Ten thousand times ten thousand and thousands of thousands, were the heavenly messengers beheld by the prophet Daniel. The apostle Paul declared them "an innumerable company." Daniel 7:10; Hebrews 12:22. As God's messengers they go forth, like "the appearance of a flash of lightning," (Ezekiel 1:14), so dazzling their glory, and so swift their flight. The angel that appeared at the Saviour's tomb, his countenance "like lightning, and his raiment white as snow," caused the keepers for fear of him to quake, and they "became as dead men." Matthew 28:3, 4. When Sennacherib, the haughty Assyrian, reproached and blasphemed God, and threatened Israel with destruction, "it came to pass that night, that the angel of the Lord went out, and smote in the camp of the Assyrians an hundred fourscore and five thousand." There were "cut off all the mighty men of valor, and the leaders and captains," from the army of Sennacherib. "So he returned with shame of face to his own land." 2 Kings 19:35; 2 Chronicles 32:21. {GC 511.3}

Angels are sent on missions of mercy to the children of God. To Abraham, with promises of blessing; to the gates of Sodom, to rescue righteous Lot from its fiery doom; to Elijah, as he was about to perish from weariness and hunger in the desert; to Elisha, with chariots and horses of fire surrounding the little town where he was shut in by his foes; to Daniel, while seeking divine wisdom in the court of a heathen king, or abandoned to become the lions' prey; to Peter, doomed to death in Herod's dungeon; to the prisoners at Philippi; to Paul and his companions in the night of tempest on the sea; to open the mind of Cornelius to receive the gospel; to dispatch Peter with the message of salvation to the Gentile stranger--thus holy angels have, in all ages, ministered to God's people. {GC 512.1}

A guardian angel is appointed to every follower of Christ. These heavenly watchers shield the righteous from the power of the wicked one. This Satan himself recognized when he said: "Doth Job fear God for nought? Hast not Thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side?" Job 1:9, 10. The agency by which God protects His people is presented in the words of the psalmist: "The angel of the Lord encampeth round about them that fear Him, and delivereth them." Psalm 34:7. Said the Saviour, speaking of those that believe in Him: "Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of My Father." Matthew 18:10. The angels appointed to minister to the children of God have at all times access to His presence. {GC 512.2}

Thus God's people, exposed to the deceptive power and unsleeping malice of the prince of darkness, and in conflict with all the forces of evil, are assured of the unceasing guardianship of heavenly angels. Nor is such assurance given without need. If God has granted to His children promise of grace and protection, it is because there are mighty agencies of evil to be met--agencies numerous, determined, and untiring, of whose malignity and power none can safely be ignorant or unheeding. {GC 513.1}

Although I cannot minutely explain precisely how God and angels physically prevent evil men and angels from exceeding the limits God has established, I can, nevertheless, point to the physical results as evidence, namely, evil men suffer and die and evil angels flee for their lives. Plans are "overruled". The physical results are that evil men and angels do not exceed God’s established limits. No change of plans or harm comes to people that God is not willing to allow.

Have you ever read “This Present Darkness” and “Piercing the Darkness” by Frank Peretti? I suspect he describes the warfare pretty accurately.

Re: How does God prevent evil men and angels from exceeding His established limits? [Re: Mountain Man] #109746
03/12/09 01:36 PM
03/12/09 01:36 PM
K
kland  Offline
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Quote:
Angels are physical beings. They use physical weapons against one another.

Is that your opinion about physical weapons?

Re: How does God prevent evil men and angels from exceeding His established limits? [Re: kland] #109760
03/12/09 06:39 PM
03/12/09 06:39 PM
Tom  Offline
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
MM, I specifically asked you not to post of bunch of texts which didn't say anything about God's using physical force to restrain evil men (to just post one if you wanted to, but one which dealt with the subject) but simply explain it with your own words.

This isn't a difficult request. Just describe how you think God uses physical force to restrain evil men.

Here's an example of how you cite texts which don't say what you're saying:

Quote:
They use physical weapons against one another. The combat is severe and intense. “Satan and his angels are unwilling to lose their prey. They contend and battle with the holy angels, and the conflict is severe.” “Heavenly angels fight our battles for us; and co-operating with them, we may be victorious over the powers of evil.”


You're in blue, the text in red. The blue part speaks of "physical weapons" but the red part doesn't.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: How does God prevent evil men and angels from exceeding His established limits? [Re: Tom] #109854
03/14/09 09:14 PM
03/14/09 09:14 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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Posts: 22,256
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Originally Posted By: MM
Although I cannot minutely explain precisely how God and angels physically prevent evil men and angels from exceeding the limits God has established, I can, nevertheless, point to the physical results as evidence, namely, evil men suffer and die and evil angels flee for their lives. Plans are "overruled". The physical results are that evil men and angels do not exceed God’s established limits. No change of plans or harm comes to people that God is not willing to allow.

Re: How does God prevent evil men and angels from exceeding His established limits? [Re: Mountain Man] #109855
03/14/09 09:16 PM
03/14/09 09:16 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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Tom, I would like to take a break from explaining how I think God prevents evil men and angels from exceeding His established limits and study what you believe.

Re: How does God prevent evil men and angels from exceeding His established limits? [Re: Mountain Man] #109887
03/15/09 01:18 PM
03/15/09 01:18 PM
Tom  Offline
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Let's resolve my question first. Just a sentence or two would be fine.

By the way, I don't necessarily disagree with your post #109854, which is more subtly put. What I'm taking issue with is your statement that God uses "physical force" to restrain evil men. Do you wish to replace your original statement with one like this?

Quote:
God and angels prevent evil men and angels from exceeding the limits God has established.


I left out the word "physically" as it seems redundant (it is, isn't it?)

If you insist on saying God uses "physical force" to do so, please explain what you mean.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: How does God prevent evil men and angels from exceeding His established limits? [Re: Tom] #109900
03/15/09 04:51 PM
03/15/09 04:51 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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God uses physical force indirectly to prevent evil men and angels from exceeding His established limits through 1) holy angels, 2) the forces of nature, and 3) humans (i.e. armies, individuals, etc).

However, there is also the story of Jesus touching Jacob's hip. This is an example of direct physical force.

Re: How does God prevent evil men and angels from exceeding His established limits? [Re: Mountain Man] #109915
03/15/09 07:45 PM
03/15/09 07:45 PM
Tom  Offline
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
I wouldn't call this physical force. I would say God uses influence. For example, the humans (armies, individuals) are the ones who used physical force. The influence which God uses is primarily the influence of the Holy Spirit.

The SOP tells us:

Quote:
Earthly governments prevail by physical force; they maintain their dominion by war; but the founder of the new kingdom is the Prince of Peace. The Holy Spirit represents worldly kingdoms under the symbol of fierce beasts of prey; but Christ is "the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world." John 1:29. In His plan of government there is no employment of brute force to compel the conscience.(COL 77)


Quote:
The exercise of force is contrary to the principles of God's government ... (DA 22)


I don't see how you can assert that God uses physical force to achieve His purposes when we're told that force is contrary to the principles of His government. If what you alleged were true, then God would be using a principle contrary to the principles of His government. That can't be right.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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