Isn't the gulf which sin has made one between God and man? And isn't this gulf one way? God so loved the world that He gave His Son. God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto Himself.

Tom, if, as you seem to think, Jesus’ self-sacrificing life and death served primarily to motivate sinners to love and obey God, how, then, do you explain the fact Enoch and others achieved perfection and sinlessness thousands of years before Jesus lived and died? Doesn't this fact imply God was able to motivate sinners to love and obey Him without Jesus having to live and suffer and die?

Also, if A&E had succeeded in withstanding the test of fidelity and loyalty to God, that is, if they proved themselves loyal and faithful to God, do you think it would have been necessary for Jesus to suffer and die in order to punish and destroy the fallen angels without jeopardizing the welfare and security of the loyal angels?

The "not only . . . but" clause above demonstrates the contrast between dying to motivate sinners to love and obey God and dying to satisfy the just and loving demands of the law of God. Justice demands death for sin. It does not demand love and obedience in consequence of disobedience. It does not demand pardon and forgiveness in consequence of sin. It doesn't even demand the substitutionary life and death of Jesus in consequence of sin.

Law and justice simply demand death for sin. Period! It was God, not law and justice, that figured out a way to pardon and save penitent sinners while at the same time fulfilling the death demands of law and justice thus magnifying the law and guaranteeing the eternal security and happiness of the Universe.

You seem to disagree with these observations.

Every time I attempt to state your position you rebuke me for grossly misrepresenting your view. I have no idea what role you think the God of glory and sin play in the punishment and destruction of sinners at the end of time.


Why do you think sin-hardened sinners are capable of appreciating the character of Christ and comprehending what they’ve forfeited to the extent it causes them to suffer intense and unimaginable anguish of soul like Jesus did in Gethsemane and on Golgotha?

And, how do you explain the fact that after having endured the judgment of their sins in the undiluted, unveiled presence of God that they survive very much alive so much so that they have wit and energy enough to turn upon one another in fits and fists of rage?

Also, how do you explain the fact that the same fire that causes the wicked to suffer in proportion and in duration to their sinfulness also causes the earth to become a vast, seething lake of fire which burns up the rubble and rubbish of earth turning it into ashes?


According to your interpretation – not according to mine! I believe literal and symbolic fires are involved in the punishment of sinners and that both result in them dying. You believe only symbolic fire is involved in the punishment of sinners and that this alone is what causes them to die. Or, have I misunderstood your view – again!


It sounds like you agree with me that a physical light source does indeed emanate from God. What effect do you think this light source has on sinful flesh? For example, the light emanating from Moses had to be veiled because it caused people physical pain. Do you think it is possible the light emanating from God could cause people to feel physical pain? If not, why not?


The only time people feared for their lives in the presence of Jesus was when divinity flashed through humanity. Otherwise, they regarded Him as either an ordinary man or a demon-possessed lunatic. True, some people felt uncomfortable in His presence like sinners nowadays feel uncomfortable being around godly Christians. BTW, what do you think “flashed” through Jesus’ humanity and caused sinners to fear for their lives? Sister White observed:

God sent His Son into the world, His divinity clothed with humanity, that man might bear the image of the invisible God. He made known in His words, His character, His power and majesty, the nature and attributes of God. Divinity flashed through humanity in softening, subduing light. He was the embodiment of the law of God, which is the transcript of His character. {5BC 1131.6}

She also wrote:


According to the passages above, and othesr like them, it is clear that it is the light and wrath of an offended God that will cause sinners to suffer emotional and physical pain and then finally die.


Please address this question. Thank you.

I just reposted something recently at your request. That discusses this question.

By the way, the last thing you summarized for GC was pretty good.



Of course, no one will suffer like Jesus did. But we were all made for God's glory, to have fellowship with Him. He is the holy grail that people look for all their lives, without knowing what they're missing.



I didn't read it as saying they are turning on one another but against Satan and his agents.



You're asking me to explain something I don't think is true.



I think you're understanding my view. I don't believe the literal fires are involved in the suffering of the wicked. Ellen White says the glory of Him who is love will destroy them. Literal fire <> God's glory. (symbol means "is not equal to")



Even Adam and Eve had light emanating from them, so it makes sense God would, since man was created in God's image.



Moses had sinful flesh, and it didn't cause him pain (that is, the light shining from his face), so it seems to have been a spiritual problem, not a physical one.

The wrath of God is His "giving up" people. It's not something God does to someone, but something God permits to happen.

For example, Ellen White writes that if God had *left* Satan to reap the full results of his sin, he would have perished, which is "the inevitable result of sin." This is God's wrath, when God finally does leave Satan and his followers to reap the full result of their sin. The emotional and physical pain which is experienced is the result of sin. It would be like having defective lungs, say, which make breathing pure air painful. Say as long as the person is shielded from pure air, they can breathe OK, but as soon as they are exposed to pure air, it's painful. The problem is not the pure air, but the defective lungs. It would be really weird to say that pure air was responsible for their suffering, but this is analogous to what I see you doing. Rather than affixing blame where it belongs, which is to sin, you have God doing arbitrary (individual discretion, not capricious) things to the wicked to cause them to suffer and die.

You seem not to have the concept that sin causes death, which I have a hard time understanding. Sin is based on selfishness. How can selfishness not result in suffering and death? I really don't understand your thinking here.

Regarding Zechariah, I think he was describing something he saw in vision. I don't think the wicked's experience will be like in "Raiders of the Lost Ark."

Jesus Christ was revealed to Enoch. The time in which one lives doesn't prevent the Holy Spirit from revealing Christ to someone.



No, I don't think so. Waggoner addresses this question. I couldn't find what I was looking for, but basically he said we are not enjoined to look back or to look forward to see Christ, but to look up. Christ is an ever-present Savior for anyone, regardless of when they live.



This is a good question. It would have been necessary to make clear the issues of sin in some way which could be understood. We're not really given light on this, but it is my conviction that some other means would have been possible to accomplish this. That is, Christ's death was necessary for humans, and sufficient for angels, but not necessarily necessary for angels.

It's a question of necessity vs. sufficiency.



Why?

Why? Listen:

That the transgressor might have another trial, that men might be brought into favor with God the Father, the eternal Son of God interposed Himself to bear the punishment of transgression. One clothed with humanity, who was yet one with the Deity, was our ransom. The very earth shook and reeled at the spectacle of God's dear Son suffering the wrath of God for man's transgression. The heavens were clothed in sackcloth to hide the sight of the Divine Sufferer. {LHU 153.3}

Why else do you think Jesus was required to live and suffer and die?


Jesus’ death was substitutionary. It was arbitrary in the sense it was inflicted and imposed upon Him voluntarily. There was nothing cause and effect about it in the sense He sinned and suffered and died as a consequence. The organic connection you talk about did not exist in the case of Jesus. Yes, He was treated as if He had sinned, but in reality He did not sin. Thus the dynamics of sinning and suffering and dying did play out in Him in the same way or for the same reasons it will play out in sinners at the end of time.

BTW, who said an organic connection must exist between sin and suffering and death in the case of sinners in order for them to experience the wages of sin? In the OT, under a theocracy, God commanded capital punish. There is absolutely no organic connection between sin and capital punishment and yet God commanded it. Capital punishment, as an object lesson, implies a legal connection between sin and suffering and death. Paul articulated this thought in the following passage, a point you have avoided so far:

Hebrews
10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
10:30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance [belongeth] unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
10:31 [It is] a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.


Law and justice require 1) punishment and 2) death in consequence of sin. Why? There is nothing naïve or innocent about sinning. Sinning is a brazen, blatant, flagrant, hateful, highhanded, intolerable, and inexcusable attack on everything that is near and dear to the welfare and wellbeing of God and free moral agents. Such treason and treachery is deserving of the strictest, most enforceable penalty and punishment allowable by law. Such disdain and disregard for all that is right righteous is insufferable. “Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy?”

No, there is nothing evil or wrong or vindictive about it. It is the highest and purest form of righteous indication known to man and God. Holy angels echo the essence of it in the following passages:

And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus. For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy. And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments.

Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double. How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow. Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.

And Ellen White observed:

God has given in His word decisive evidence that He will punish the transgressors of His law. Those who flatter themselves that He is too merciful to execute justice upon the sinner, have only to look to the cross of Calvary. The death of the spotless Son of God testifies that "the wages of sin is death," that every violation of God's law must receive its just retribution. Christ the sinless became sin for man. He bore the guilt of transgression, and the hiding of His Father's face, until His heart was broken and His life crushed out. All this sacrifice was made that sinners might be redeemed. In no other way could man be freed from the penalty of sin. And every soul that refuses to become a partaker of the atonement provided at such a cost must bear in his own person the guilt and punishment of transgression. {GC 539.3}

To our merciful God the act of punishment is a strange act. "As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked." Ezekiel 33:11. The Lord is "merciful and gracious, long-suffering, and abundant in goodness and truth, . . . forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin." Yet He will "by no means clear the guilty." The Lord is slow to anger, and great in power, and will not at all acquit the wicked." Exodus 34:6, 7; Nahum 1:3. By terrible things in righteousness He will vindicate the authority of His downtrodden law. The severity of the retribution awaiting the transgressor may be judged by the Lord's reluctance to execute justice. The nation with which He bears long, and which He will not smite until it has filled up the measure of its iniquity in God's account, will finally drink the cup of wrath unmixed with mercy. {GC 627.2}

PS - As an aside, the phrase "the Lord's reluctance to execute justice" seems a strange thing for her to say considering you believe "justice" is the manifestation of mercy and compassion and forgiveness.

Tom, I've made many points and asked many questions on pages 5 and 6 of this thread. I am hoping you will address all of them. Thank you.