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Re: Sinning Not
#11132
11/02/04 08:56 PM
11/02/04 08:56 PM
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SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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quote:
If a person lives the rest of his life without sinning and is therefore without sin as you say, then what does that person need salvation from?
From sinning again now or in the future. Salvation is an ongoing, continual experience, without it we cannot, Go and sin no more.
quote:
And how do you reconcile this belief with scripture, which says? "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." 1 John 1:8
It's refering to past sins, and all of us have committed sins in the past, but to say we have never sinned, like the Gnostics John was addressing in this passage (verses 6-10), then we are dead wrong. John speaks to post-conversion sins in 1 John 2:1, 2.
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Re: Sinning Not
#11133
11/02/04 10:57 PM
11/02/04 10:57 PM
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quote:
If a person lives the rest of his life without sinning and is therefore without sin as you say, then what does that person need salvation from?
From sinning again now or in the future. Salvation is an ongoing, continual experience, without it we cannot, Go and sin no more.
| quote: Mike Lowe | |
This does not make sense. If a person lives the rest of his life without sinning, how could he possibly need saving "from sinning again now or in the future"? Why would anyone need to be saved from something they do not do?
It's refering to past sins, and all of us have committed sins in the past, but to say we have never sinned, like the Gnostics John was addressing in this passage (verses 6-10), then we are dead wrong. John speaks to post-conversion sins in 1 John 2:1, 2. |
| quote: Mike Lowe |
Past sins ... but you said that such a person (who lives the rest of their life without further sin) is without sin. "Past sins" are still "sins", and if a person needs to be saved from past sins, how can they possibly be sinless?!
It seems to me that no one is without sin, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and if we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. Scripture is pretty clear to me.
Being forgiven of your sin, accepting Christ's sacrifice as payment for your sin, is another matter. Just as your traffic citations being paid (by you or by someone else) does not make you "without traffic violations", neither does living from this point forward without sinning and accepting Christ's payment for your past sins make you "sinless".
Your traffic citations remain on your record until they are removed. You may be thinking, "Duh!". But stay with me.
If, after receiving a ticket and paying the fine, you drive perfectly, without any violation whatsoever, whether caught or uncaught, whether known or unknown, are you without traffic violations? You, Mike, would seem to say, "Yes, of course." I see it differently. You would not be perfect or without citations. I could look at your driving record and see the "past citations". You would not be without citations/violations until they were removed from your record; which is usually 3 years I believe, depending upon which state you live in.
Mike, on Oct 22 you even said that our sins are not blotted out until the investigative judgement:
Will, the Bible sasys God will not forget our sins until after they are blotted out during the investigative judgment. In the meantime, though, He doesn't throw them in our face if we take our eyes off Jesus and blow it. Thank you, Jesus. |
| quote: Mike Lowe |
Mike, it would seem that you have a different definition of "being sinless". You somehow seem to be saying that you can have "past sins" and still be "sinless". This is self contradicting.
Somehow I think you are trying to say (and I could be wrong) that if you accept Christ as your Saviour, and by the power of the Spirit of God you do not sin anymore, then God sees you as sinless because you are wearing Christ's robe of Righteousness and have been justified by faith, though our own robe is as filthy rags.
However, that is not what I am referring to when I talked about being "without sin".
Reread my original post, and think about the reasons I gave for asking those questions. Give some thought to the objections I listed that some give to the idea of obeying God.
For instance, in my original post I had said that some will say that we cannot stop sinning because we would then be sinless and being sinless we would therefore be perfect and have no need of a Saviour, and then they'd quote 1 John 1:8,10, among other verses. I then posed the question, "if you no longer sin, does that mean that you are without sin and are perfect?", to which you replied, "Yes, of course"
Now, that being said, Mike, have you ever participated in a discussion where it was suggested that God expects us to obey Him, not to earn salvation but out of love for Him? If so, have you ever received a response that rejected obedience to God because if we could stop sinning, then we'd be without sin and make Him a liar (1 John 1:8,10). That if we could stop sinning, we would not need a Saviour?
If so, then how did you respond? Did you say as you did here and agree with them that yes, such a person would be perfect and without sin? Or did you respond differently?
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Re: Sinning Not
#11134
11/03/04 08:58 PM
11/03/04 08:58 PM
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SDA
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Active Member 2019
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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Peter said: quote:
1 Peter
4:1, 2 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin; that he no longer should live the rest of [his] time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.
The way I understand this promise is that the Holy Spirit empowers us to live without sinning from now on, if we stay connected to Jesus. Which is also what Paul said in Romans: quote:
6:6, 7 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with [him], that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin.
Just because we cease sinning it does not mean we have never sinned in the past. Even when God blots out our record and memory of past sins, and remembers them no more, it doesn't change the fact we were once sinners saved by grace. But nor does our sinful past prevent us from experiencing the promises of God, which says we are morally sinless, here and now, so long as we are connected to Christ. What matters is what’s true now, not yesterday or tomorrow. And truth is: quote:
1 John 3:6-10
Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
I'm going to take some time to address the other part of your question.
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Re: Sinning Not
#11135
11/03/04 10:36 PM
11/03/04 10:36 PM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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quote:
Somehow I think you are trying to say (and I could be wrong) that if you accept Christ as your Saviour, and by the power of the Spirit of God you do not sin anymore, then God sees you as sinless because you are wearing Christ's robe of Righteousness and have been justified by faith, though our own robe is as filthy rags.
God looks at everybody as if they haven't sinned, from the standpoint that He does not count their sins against them, but graciously treats them as well as if they were His own Son. If God didn't do this, we would be dead, because we've all sinned, and the wages of sin is death.
I started a thread on justification where I discussed the difference between forensic justification (not a phrase used in the Bible, although the phrase "justification of life" is used) and justification by faith.
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Re: Sinning Not
#11136
11/05/04 04:46 AM
11/05/04 04:46 AM
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God looks at everybody as if they haven't sinned, from the standpoint that He does not count their sins against them, but graciously treats them as well as if they were His own Son. If God didn't do this, we would be dead, because we've all sinned, and the wages of sin is death. |
| quote: Tom Ewall |
Greetings, Tom. Thank you again for your comments.
While I agree with your statements on Oct 12, I don't think I can agree with this statement. If all of humanity is seen as sinless in His eyes, then all of humanity would be saved. While God does not instantly destroy the wicked, all are not justified nor seen as sinless in the eyes of God.
Throughout the Bible we are told how we can be the sons and daughters of God. Throughout the Bible, the distinction is made between the sons and daughters of God and the sons and daughters of men. (Gen 6:2,4; Deut 32:8; Hosea 1:10; Job 35:8; Ps 11:4;14:2;53:2; Is 51:12; Romans 8:14,19;9:26; Gal 4:6)
Nowhere does the Bible say that all of humanity is justified. Rather the Bible talks about justification by faith. Do all of humanity have faith in Christ? No! (Luke 18:14; Acts 13:39; Rom 3:24,28;10:10; Gal 2:17; James 2:24)
I agree, God does not immediately wipe out sinners; otherwise you and I would have been destroyed immediately. Actually, we may never have existed because Adam and Eve would have been immediately destroyed. But who would have tempted them? For then God would have immediately destroyed Lucifer in heaven.
The reason the wicked are not immediately destroyed is not because all are justified before God. No, instead God extends grace to both the wicked and the righteous, "for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust." (Matthew 5:45)
I agree that further discussion on justification should be continued in the other tread you mentioned.
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Re: Sinning Not
#11137
11/05/04 04:00 AM
11/05/04 04:00 AM
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SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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DenBorg, regarding your question concerning whether or not we would still need a Saviour if we ceased sinning from henceforth. First of all, I firmly believe that 1 John 1:6-10 is talking about the Gnostic converts who thought they didn’t need to repent because, based on Greek philosophy, it is impossible to sin in the spirit, sinning is only possible in the flesh and, according their belief, they have always lived in the flesh, therefore they have never sinned, thus there is no need to repent (sorry about the long run on sentence).
Also, as part of his discourse, John affirms – “If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.” Verse 9. Obviously he didn’t mean for us to think Jesus cannot serve as our Saviour unless we continue to sin and repent. Jesus came to destroy the works of the Devil – not to guarantee their survival, as if His ministry and our salvation depend on it. 1 John 3:5, 8. Nor does ceasing from sin make God a liar, because that is what God has been promising to do for us all along.
Secondly, Jesus will always be our Saviour, even throughout eternity. His scars will ever remind us that we once sinners saved by grace. Just because we stop sinning, because the blood of the Lamb has set us free, it does not mean that Jesus ceases being our Saviour. Jesus is the Saviour of the world whether we sin or not. In fact, as Tom is accustomed to saying – “Before there was a sinner, there was a Saviour.” Jesus is “the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.” Rev 13:8.
If this isn't anything close to what you were expecting, please let me know. Thanx.
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Re: Sinning Not
#11138
11/05/04 04:24 AM
11/05/04 04:24 AM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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What I said, which isn't me but quoting from EGW, is "as soon as sin there was a Savior."
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