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Sinning Not
#11032
10/11/04 05:59 PM
10/11/04 05:59 PM
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Greetings, everyone! In recent and past discussions on this forum and others, whenever the idea is presented of someone living from this point forward without sinning, one or more people object to that idea citing one or more of the following reasons: - If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves. (1 John 1:8)
- If we say we have not sinned, we make Him a liar. (1 John 1:10)
- If we no longer sin, then we have no need of Christ for we are then perfect, and have earned salvation, and deserve it.
- For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God. (Romans 3:23)
In their arguments, some even go as far to say that we are always sinning, continuously and perpetually, every moment of every day.
The topic of this particular thread is very specific, namely those questions listed below.
This is not a discussion on whether or not living without sinning is possible. That can be discussed on a different thread. Whether you believe it possible or impossible, you can still answer the following questions.
This is not a discussion on how we can have salvation. Rather, it is about the implications of the idea of living without sinning anymore.
Regardless of whether you think it possible or impossible to live "and sin no more" prior to Christ's second coming, ...
if you no longer sin does it mean that ...
- ...you are without sin?
- ...you are perfect?
- ...you deserve or have earned salvation?
- ...you do not need salvation?
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Re: Sinning Not
#11033
10/12/04 02:41 PM
10/12/04 02:41 PM
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Posting New Member
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Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 38
Australia
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quote:
if you no longer sin does it mean that ...
...you are without sin?
...you are perfect?
...you deserve or have earned salvation?
...you do not need salvation?
I will have a go at answering your questions.
From a Christian perspective:
If I was to no longer sin it does not mean that I am without sin. "All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God." I think it may mean that a person has reached a stage in their life where they are able to more readily choose not to sin. "LOL. If that is even possible."
If I was to no longer sin, it would not mean that I was perfect. Perfection comes when we are changed.
If I was to no longer sin it would not mean that I deserved or had earned salvation. None of us deserve or can earn salvation. Salvation is a gift from God so that none of us can boast.
If I was to no longer sin, it would not mean that I did not need salvation. We cannot save ourselves, only Jesus can do that.
From a non Christian perspective:
I would most likely think that I was not a sinner, was perfect, deserved or had earned salvation. And would most definitely think that I did not need saving. What a scary thought, I used to be just like that.
At this point in time, that is the best I can do.
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Re: Sinning Not
#11034
10/13/04 03:15 AM
10/13/04 03:15 AM
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Thank-you Shelley for your comments. I most definitely agree with you!
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Re: Sinning Not
#11035
10/12/04 11:37 PM
10/12/04 11:37 PM
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1. It depends on what "without sin" means. In terms of meriting salvation, it would be necessary to live one's whole life without sin, so a person who "lives the rest of his life without sinning" would be just as much not without sin as someone who didn't. (hope the double negatives can be followed)
2. It depends on what "perfect" means. If perfect means to be Christ-like, I suppose in some sense that would have to be true, as the only way someone could go without sinning would be to be like Christ. Here's a statement from EGW: "God has made provision that all may be made like unto Him [Christ], and He will accomplish that for all who do not interpose a perverse will and thus frustrate His grace." (MB 71 I think) This is commenting on the verse, "Be ye therefore perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect". To be perfect is to be like Christ.
Note that whatsoever is not of faith is sin, so not sinning encompasses living completely by faith, as well as being in perfect harmony with the Law, the transcript of God's character, in thought, word and deed.
3. Since it is not possible to do even one right thing without Christ, it is rediculous for one to think they can merit salvation.
4. Same answer as 3.
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Re: Sinning Not
#11036
10/13/04 09:33 PM
10/13/04 09:33 PM
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Interesting questions! I agree with the above posts, although I would like to add one thought. We cannot live without sin separate from God. To think that we have earned or merited our salvation/place in heaven because we live a sinless life would be selfishly and wrongly taking the credit for something God did, and, ultimately (in my view) be a sin. I believe, that, ultimately, our goal in Christ should be to live as He lived, thus be perfect and without sin. That takes a lot of work by Christ within and doesn't (generally) happen overnight. Also requires a relationship. "With Christ all things are possible" Yes, it is possible to live a sinless live from here on out.... Doesn't mean sinless from birth though ![[Smile]](images/icons/smile.gif)
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Re: Sinning Not
#11037
10/14/04 11:15 PM
10/14/04 11:15 PM
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Maybe studying the life of Enoch would help answer this question........
He is a representative of those alive/saved/God's people. when He comes to claim His own.
We are living in the days of the 144.000...they are without fault, and the charater of Christ is perfectly reproduced in His people.....they are sinless, so they can see Jesus face to face.
The only part of us that is changed when Jesus comes is Glorification. When the judgement is over before Jesus comes....He says, "Rev 22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still."
It is too late to gain spiritual perfection after the close of our probation [the verse above} but this mortal body will put on immortality.....and off we go to eternity. Praise God.
So where are we in this equation?
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Re: Sinning Not
#11038
10/15/04 02:22 AM
10/15/04 02:22 AM
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1. you are without sin?
Yes, of course. Only sinless people can go and sin no more.
2. you are perfect?
Yes, of course. At least, morally.
3. you deserve or have earned salvation?
No, no, no.
4. you do not need salvation?
No, no, no.
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Re: Sinning Not
#11039
10/15/04 06:06 PM
10/15/04 06:06 PM
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Active Member 2012
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Why is it that so many claim to be holy and sinless? It is because they are so far from Christ. I have never dared to claim any such a thing. From the time that I was 14 years old, if I knew what the will of God was, I was willing to do it. You never have heard me say I am sinless. Those that get sight of the loveliness and exalted character of Jesus Christ, who was holy and lifted up and His train fills the temple, will never say it. Yet we are to meet with those that will say such things more and more.--Manuscript 5, 1885.
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Re: Sinning Not
#11040
10/15/04 06:29 PM
10/15/04 06:29 PM
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Wow. A pretty marked contrast there.
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Re: Sinning Not
#11041
10/15/04 07:09 PM
10/15/04 07:09 PM
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Contrast? No, not at all. Saying, I am sinless, and being, Perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect - are two totally different things. Not even Jesus boasted about being sinless. We are born again morally sinless.
Galatians
2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
1 Peter
4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
4:2 That he no longer should live the rest of [his] time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.
Sister White encourages us to be holy and sinless, like Jesus.
AG 179
As Christ in His humanity sought strength from His Father, that He might be enabled to endure trial and temptation, so are we to do. We are to follow the example of the sinless Son of God. Daily we need help and grace and power from the Source of all power. We are to cast our helpless souls upon the One who is ready to help us in every time of need. Too often we forget the Lord. Self gives way to impulse, and we lose the victories that we should gain. {AG 179.4}
HP 166
"Be ye therefore perfect" (Matt. 5:48) is God's word to us. And in order that we might obey this word, He sent His only-begotten Son to this earth to live in our behalf a perfect life. We have before us His example, and the strength by which He lived this life is at our disposal. In thought, word, and act Jesus was sinless. Perfection marked all that He did. He points us to the path that He trod, saying, "If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me" (Matt. 16:24). {HP 166.4}
HP 146
Those who believe on Christ and obey His commandments are not under bondage to God's law; for to those who believe and obey, His law is not a law of bondage, but of liberty. Everyone who believes on Christ, everyone who relies on the keeping power of a risen Saviour that has suffered the penalty pronounced upon the transgressor, everyone who resists temptation and in the midst of evil copies the pattern given in the Christ life, will through faith in the atoning sacrifice of Christ become a partaker of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. Everyone who by faith obeys God's commandments will reach the condition of sinlessness in which Adam lived before his transgression. {HP 146.5}
6BC 1118
Those only who through faith in Christ obey all of God's commandments will reach the condition of sinlessness in which Adam lived before his transgression. They testify to their love of Christ by obeying all His precepts (MS 122, 1901). {6BC 1118.10}
Whenever Sister White denounced saying, I am sinless, it was always in the context of false sanctification and law breaking.
FW 53
While they profess to be sinless and boast of their righteousness, the claimants of sanctification teach that men are at liberty to transgress the law of God and that those who obey its precepts have fallen from grace. {FW 53.3}
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Re: Sinning Not
#11042
10/15/04 07:49 PM
10/15/04 07:49 PM
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Mike said, quote:
Whenever Sister White denounced saying, I am sinless, it was always in the context of false sanctification and law breaking.
I don't think that's right. She said that she herself would never claim to be sinless. Was she herself guilty of false sanctification and law breaking, then?
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Re: Sinning Not
#11043
10/15/04 07:51 PM
10/15/04 07:51 PM
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Active Member 2012
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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quote:
Sister White encourages us to be holy and sinless, like Jesus.
She certainly doesn't encourage us to claim to be holy and sinless.
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Re: Sinning Not
#11044
10/15/04 10:14 PM
10/15/04 10:14 PM
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John, the quote Tom shared above is in the context of unsanctified people claiming to be holy and sinless. Jesus never claimed to holy and sinless - neither should we. But just because Jesus never claimed to be holy and sinless it doesn't mean He wasn't. The same is true of born again believers. We must leave it to God to declare our righteousness. Actions speak louder than words. By their fruits, not their boasting, ye shall know them.
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Re: Sinning Not
#11045
10/16/04 05:12 PM
10/16/04 05:12 PM
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We are either all of His and free of sin, or we are none of His full of sin. No one abiding in Christ can commit a known sin. It is impossible. They are righteous even as He is righteous. They are morally sinless. That's what the gospel is all about - liberty, freedom, and the abundant life. We cannot sin and be saved at the same time.
Of course, we are always free to separate ourselves from Jesus and resurrect our old man and revert to our old sinful ways, but so long as we are walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man we do not and cannot commit a known sin. Even throughout eternity we are free to sin and rebel, but, and praise the Lord, no one will exercise their freedom to do so.
If we do commit a known sin we dethrone the Holy Spirit. But God does not reject us, no way; rather, the Holy Spirit immediately begins impressing us from without to receive the free gift of repentance, which empowers us to confess and forsake our sin, plus it gives God the legal right to pardon us and to restore the relationship our sin severed.
As soon as we are forgiven and restored to the mind of the new man, the Holy Spirit once again ascends the throne of our soul temple and resumes empowering us from within to resist temptation and to reproduce the lovely character of Christ.
TDG 240
"He that loveth his life shall lose it" (John 12:25). When a man loses the shield of a good conscience, he knows that he has lost the cooperation of heavenly angels. God is not working in him. Another spirit inspires him. And to be an apostate, a traitor to the cause of God, is much more serious than death; it means the loss of eternal life.--Manuscript 87, Aug. 19, 1897. {TDG 240.4}
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Re: Sinning Not
#11046
10/17/04 09:11 AM
10/17/04 09:11 AM
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Mike said, quote:
Jesus never claimed to holy and sinless - neither should we.
Well then, please explain why you've done exactly that:
quote:
1. you are without sin?
Yes, of course. Only sinless people can go and sin no more.
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Re: Sinning Not
#11047
10/18/04 03:13 AM
10/18/04 03:13 AM
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Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 38
Australia
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quote:
We are either all of His and free of sin, or we are none of His full of sin. No one abiding in Christ can commit a known sin. It is impossible. They are righteous even as He is righteous. They are morally sinless. That's what the gospel is all about - liberty, freedom, and the abundant life. We cannot sin and be saved at the same time.
1 John 2:1
1 _ My dear children, I am writing this to you so that you will not sin. But if you do sin, there is someone to plead for you before the Father. He is Jesus Christ, the one who pleases God.
Mike, please explain, in light of the above verse, how we can be none of His and full of sin if we happen to do something sinful.
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Re: Sinning Not
#11048
10/18/04 03:50 AM
10/18/04 03:50 AM
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John, repeating what the Bible and the SOP says about born again believers is not the same thing as saying - I am sinless (when in reality my life is not in harmony with the word of God). The only time the promises of God, the promises of perfection, apply to me personally is when I am abiding in Jesus. The same thing is true of you, of all believers.
1 John
3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
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Re: Sinning Not
#11049
10/17/04 04:08 PM
10/17/04 04:08 PM
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Shelley, good question. Thank you. Here's how I see it. In Christ we are without sin; out of Christ we are with sin. At least that's how the Bible and SOP describe it. There doesn't seem to be a neutral place where we are neither with sin or without sin. "If any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his."
Romans
8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
8:6 For to be carnally minded [is] death; but to be spiritually minded [is] life and peace.
8:7 Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
8:10 And if Christ [be] in you, the body [is] dead because of sin; but the Spirit [is] life because of righteousness.
John
3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Luke
16:13 No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.
Apparently, we cannot be partly godly and partly ungodly at the same time. We cannot sin and be saved at the same time. The apostle John made this point especially clear. So did Ezekiel, and others. The plan of salvation is a thorough work. God doesn't propose to save us with our sins - today, tomorrow or at any time. Salvation is now, today, not tomorrow or some future date. To me that's good news.
1 John
3:1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3:3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
3:11 For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.
Ezekiel
18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
18:21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
18:22 All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.
18:23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: [and] not that he should return from his ways, and live?
18:24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, [and] doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked [man] doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.
18:25 Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal?
18:26 When a righteous [man] turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.
18:27 Again, when the wicked [man] turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive.
18:28 Because he considereth, and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
18:29 Yet saith the house of Israel, The way of the Lord is not equal. O house of Israel, are not my ways equal? are not your ways unequal?
18:30 Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord GOD. Repent, and turn [yourselves] from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin.
18:31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
18:32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn [yourselves], and live ye.
John and Ezekiel's explanation is an all or nothing proposal. Nothing half way about it. Again, that's good news to me.
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Re: Sinning Not
#11050
10/18/04 12:50 AM
10/18/04 12:50 AM
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But Mike, you said above, very plainly, that you are without sin. Ellen White, a prophet of God, said that she would never say such a thing about herself, yet you have said it about yourself, openly. You still haven't addressed that.
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Re: Sinning Not
#11051
10/18/04 03:00 AM
10/18/04 03:00 AM
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Active Member 2012
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Lawrence, Kansas
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quote:
We are either all of His and free of sin, or we are none of His full of sin. No one abiding in Christ can commit a known sin.
You seem to be equating not committing a known sin as being free of sin. Using this logic, Paul was free of sin when he was persecuting Christ.
Christ commited no sin period. Neither known or unknown. We cannot say that. Hence we are not sinless. EGW said since she was 14 she was willing to do the will of God, yet she never claimed to be sinless. She said those who are far from Christ claim to be holy and sinless, and that she claimed no such thing.
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Re: Sinning Not
#11052
10/18/04 05:04 AM
10/18/04 05:04 AM
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I assumed the questions, posted at the beginning of this thread, were asked in the third person - so I answered them in the third person. I did not mean to "claim" or "boast" - I am sinless. If it seems as though I have claimed or am claiming that I am sinless, then please hear me now: I am sorry, that was/is not my intention.
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Re: Sinning Not
#11053
10/18/04 05:11 AM
10/18/04 05:11 AM
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Are born again believers capable of committing a known sin while abiding in Jesus, while walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man? If so, then please substantiate your answer with inspired quotes. Thank you.
My answer is - NO. Here's my supporting quotes:
Matthew
6:24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.
Romans
8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Galatians
5:16 [This] I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
1 John
3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
MH 180
Christ came to make us "partakers of the divine nature," and His life declares that humanity, combined with divinity, does not commit sin. {MH 180.5}
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Re: Sinning Not
#11054
10/18/04 06:41 AM
10/18/04 06:41 AM
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How does this passage from Romans 7 affect the argument?
"14We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature.[3] For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do--this I keep on doing. 20Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
21So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22For in my inner being I delight in God's law; 23but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. 24What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? 25Thanks be to God--through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God's law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin. "
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Re: Sinning Not
#11055
10/19/04 03:31 AM
10/19/04 03:31 AM
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I believe Paul is saying that his sinful nature generates and communicates unholy thoughts and feelings, which, while walking in the Spirit and the mind of the new man, he finds detestable. He is not excusing sinful behaviour. Rather, he is explaining the origin of post-conversion sinful thoughts and feelings.
Romans
7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but [how] to perform that which is good I find not.
7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
The origin of post-conversion sinful thoughts and feelings is sinful nature. That is, sinful nature has, as it were, a mind and voice of its own. It has the ability to generate and communciate unholy thoughts and feelings, which we must recognize as the voice of sin, self and Satan. Talking about sinful flesh nature, Sister White wrote:
AH 127
The lower passions have their seat in the body and work through it. The words "flesh" or "fleshly" or "carnal lusts" embrace the lower, corrupt nature; the flesh of itself cannot act contrary to the will of God. We are commanded to crucify the flesh, with the affections and lusts. How shall we do it? Shall we inflict pain on the body? No; but put to death the temptation to sin. The corrupt thought is to be expelled. Every thought is to be brought into captivity to Jesus Christ. All animal propensities are to be subjected to the higher powers of the soul. The love of God must reign supreme; Christ must occupy an undivided throne. Our bodies are to be regarded as His purchased possession. The members of the body are to become the instruments of righteousness. {AH 127.2}
I believe Paul is talking about the one and only thing sinful nature can "do" and that is - produce unholy thoughts and feelings, which, at least initially, are only temptations. When he says, "It is no more I that do it", I believe the "do it" he's referring to are the sinful thoughts and feelings manufactured by his fallen flesh nature.
All temptations begin as unholy thoughts and feelings, but God does not count us guilty of them until we cherish them or act them out in thought, word or deed. If we keep our eyes on Jesus, if we continue to abide in Him, then, like Paul, we may say, "So then with the mind {of the new man} I myself serve the law of God."
1 Corinthians
9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring [it] into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.
2 Corinthians
10:4 (For the weapons of our warfare [are] not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;)
10:5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;
Galatians
2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
Galatians
5:16 [This] I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
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Re: Sinning Not
#11056
10/19/04 03:40 AM
10/19/04 03:40 AM
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By the way, when Paul said, Walk in the Spirit and ye shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh, he gave a long list of known sins that we would not commit, which one of these known sins, and such like, will born again believers commit while walking in the Spirit, while abiding in Jesus?
Galatians
5:16 [This] I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are [these]; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told [you] in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
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Re: Sinning Not
#11057
10/19/04 03:55 AM
10/19/04 03:55 AM
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Tom, I just reread your last post, and a thought came to mind. Just because we have a history of committing sin, and just because we slip in and out of sin, it does not mean that the promises of perfection do not apply to us while we are walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man, while we are abiding in Jesus.
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Re: Sinning Not
#11058
10/19/04 05:03 AM
10/19/04 05:03 AM
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I wrote this:
"You seem to be equating not committing a known sin as being free of sin. Using this logic, Paul was free of sin when he was persecuting Christ.
Christ commited no sin period. Neither known or unknown. We cannot say that. Hence we are not sinless. EGW said since she was 14 she was willing to do the will of God, yet she never claimed to be sinless. She said those who are far from Christ claim to be holy and sinless, and that she claimed no such thing."
You wrote:
"Tom, I just reread your last post, and a thought came to mind. Just because we have a history of committing sin, and just because we slip in and out of sin, it does not mean that the promises of perfection do not apply to us while we are walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man, while we are abiding in Jesus."
I don't see the connection here.
As a comment, it appears to me that your theology has sin as its focalpoint. I don't think such a theology can succeed. A theology whose focalpoint is Christ is one which is bound to succeed.
My point is that to be sinless one would have to be without sin, either known or unknown. Christ fits this category, but we do not. None of us are sinless.
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Re: Sinning Not
#11059
10/19/04 05:09 AM
10/19/04 05:09 AM
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Are born again believers capable of committing a known sin while abiding in Jesus, while walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man? If so, then please substantiate your answer with inspired quotes. Thank you.
My answer is - NO. Here's my supporting quotes:
Matthew
6:24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.
Romans
8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Galatians
5:16 [This] I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
1 John
3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
MH 180
Christ came to make us "partakers of the divine nature," and His life declares that humanity, combined with divinity, does not commit sin. {MH 180.5}
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Re: Sinning Not
#11060
10/19/04 05:15 AM
10/19/04 05:15 AM
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Tom, please provide an example of an unknown sin that makes a born again believer morally sinful. I realize some non-SDA believers are guilty of sins of ignorance, like the Sabbath and other doctrines not known naturally, but such things do not mean they are morally sinful. So long as they are living up to the light they know instinctively and intellectually, in the eyes of God, they are morally sinless, which is all that matters for salvation. But to be one of the 144,000 they must learn and live all truth necessary to be translated alive.
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Re: Sinning Not
#11061
10/19/04 11:41 AM
10/19/04 11:41 AM
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Revelation 7
144,000 Sealed
1After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth to prevent any wind from blowing on the land or on the sea or on any tree. 2Then I saw another angel coming up from the east, having the seal of the living God. He called out in a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm the land and the sea: 3"Do not harm the land or the sea or the trees until we put a seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God." 4Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel.
5From the tribe of Judah 12,000 were sealed,
from the ...( list of tribes)
8 ... Benjamin 12,000.
The Great Multitude in White Robes
9After this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands. 10And they cried out in a loud voice:
"Salvation belongs to our God,
who sits on the throne,
and to the Lamb." 11All the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures. They fell down on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12saying:
"Amen!
Praise and glory
and wisdom and thanks and honor
and power and strength
be to our God for ever and ever.
Amen!"
13Then one of the elders asked me, "These in white robes--who are they, and where did they come from?"
14I answered, "Sir, you know."
15And he said, "These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Therefore,
"they are before the throne of God
and serve him day and night in his temple;
and he who sits on the throne will spread his tent over them.
16Never again will they hunger;
never again will they thirst.
The sun will not beat upon them,
nor any scorching heat.
17For the Lamb at the center of the throne will be their shepherd;
he will lead them to springs of living water.
And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes."
Matt 20
20Then the mother of Zebedee's sons came to Jesus with her sons and, kneeling down, asked a favor of him.
21"What is it you want?" he asked.
She said, "Grant that one of these two sons of mine may sit at your right and the other at your left in your kingdom."
22"You don't know what you are asking," Jesus said to them. "Can you drink the cup I am going to drink?"
"We can," they answered.
23Jesus said to them, "You will indeed drink from my cup, but to sit at my right or left is not for me to grant. These places belong to those for whom they have been prepared by my Father."
24When the ten heard about this, they were indignant with the two brothers.
25Jesus called them together and said, "You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their high officials exercise authority over them.
26Not so with you. Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant,
27and whoever wants to be first must be your slave--
28just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many."
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Re: Sinning Not
#11062
10/20/04 03:49 AM
10/20/04 03:49 AM
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Any sin is coming short of the glory of God and makes a person not sinless. Sin, whether known or unknown, misrepresents God's character. Since by beholding we become changed, it is imperative that we behold God as He really is in Christ Jesus. This is why it would be good to spend a thoughtful hour contemplating the life of Christ each day, especially the latter scenes.
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Re: Sinning Not
#11063
10/21/04 03:53 AM
10/21/04 03:53 AM
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How can sins of ignorance misrepresent God's character? Sin is the stuff of choice and character. If the Spirit of God hasn't revealed our sins of ignorance, then we are not morally guilty of them, thus we cannot be guilty of misrepresenting the character of God. The only thing that can dishonor God is our unconquered, uncrucified defective traits of character.
According to the apostle Paul there is no such thing as an unknown defective trait of character. Remember, character traits are developed as we repeat the same behaviour over and over again. Therefore, there is no way a born again believer, who is being led and empowered by the Spirit, can unknowingly develop, or unknowingly possess, a sinful trait of character.
All uncrucified moral imperfections are nothing more than known and cherished sins. Why? Because there is no excuse for retaining them, no excuse for repeating them. "We need not retain one sinful propensity." FLB 23. "When men who claim to be Christians retain all their natural defects of character and disposition, in what does their position differ from that of the worldling? They do not appreciate the truth as a sanctifier, a refiner. They have not been born again." MAR 237.
So, what constitutes a sin of ignorance?
1 John
5:16 If any man see his brother sin a sin [which is] not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.
5:17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.
5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.
RH 12 April 1892
The old nature, born of blood and the will of the flesh, cannot inherit the kingdom of God. The old ways, the hereditary tendencies, the former habits, must be given up; for grace is not inherited. The new birth consists in having new motives, new tastes, new tendencies. Those who are begotten unto a new life by the Holy Spirit, have become partakers of the divine nature, and in all their habits and practices, they will give evidence of their relationship to Christ. When men who claim to be Christians retain all their natural defects of character and disposition, in what does their position differ from that of the worldling? They do not appreciate the truth as a sanctifier, a refiner. They have not been born again.
The command, "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect," would never have been given, if every provision had not been made whereby we may become as perfect in our sphere as God is in his. We are to be ever advancing from light to a greater light, holding fast what we have already received, and praying for more. Thus we shall never be left in darkness.
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Re: Sinning Not
#11064
10/20/04 04:39 PM
10/20/04 04:39 PM
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In response to Mike Lowe's last post I am asking four questions:
1 - Did Adam and/or Eve commit any sins of ignorance before the Fall?
2 - Did Adam and/or Eve commit any sins of ignorance after the Fall?
3 - Did Christ commit any sins of ignorance while here on earth from the manger to the cross?
4 - Did and do we as professing Christians commit any sins of ignorance?
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Re: Sinning Not
#11065
10/20/04 05:06 PM
10/20/04 05:06 PM
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But, Daryl, how do we define a sin of ignorance? Do defective traits of character qualify as sins of ignorance?
4BC 1159
The influence of the Spirit upon the human mind will regulate it after the divine order. But the Spirit does not work in a manner and power beyond the human agent's power of resistance. A man may refuse to hear the counsels and admonitions of God. He may choose to take the regulating of his conduct into his own hands; but when he does this, he is not made a vessel unto honor. Like Moab, he refuses to be changed, emptied from vessel to vessel, and therefore his scent remaineth in him. He refuses to correct his defective traits of character, although the Lord has plainly pointed out his work, his privileges, his opportunities, and the advancement to be made. It is too much trouble to break up his old ways, and transform his ideas and methods. "His scent is not changed." He clings to his defects, and is thus unfitted for the sacred work of the ministry. He was not willing to make a close examination of himself, or to closely inquire for light to shine upon him in a clear, distinct manner. His prayers have not ascended to God in humility, while with humble endeavor he sought to live his prayers by understanding and performing his duty. {4BC 1159.5}
6BC 1072
If we were defective in character, we could not pass the gates that mercy has opened to the obedient; for justice stands at the entrance, and demands holiness, purity, in all who would see God. Were justice extinct, and were it possible for divine mercy to open the gates to the whole race, irrespective of character, there would be a worse condition of disaffection and rebellion in heaven than before Satan was expelled. The peace, happiness, and harmony of heaven would be broken up. The change from earth to heaven will not change men's characters; the happiness of the redeemed in heaven results from the characters formed in this life, after the image of Christ. The saints in heaven will first have been saints on earth. {6BC 1072.2}
Advent Review and Sabbath Herald, December 15, 1904, paragraph 12
Article Title: A Call to Repentance
There are many who are not Bible Christians. They follow a standard of their own devising. If they would see their defective, distorted characters as they are accurately reflected in the mirror of God's Word, they would be so alarmed that they would fall upon their faces before God in contrition of soul, and tear away the rags of their self-righteousness.
(Australasian) Union Conference Record, July 12, 1899, paragraph 9
Article Title: The Higher Education
Can we suppose that parents who have neglected or indulged their children, letting them, because it is easier, follow their own way, stand on the same footing as parents who have followed the will and way of God? Churches have been troubled by the defective characters of parents and the defective characters of their children. What have they been bringing to the foundation? Only wood, hay, and stubble. They may be saved and their children may be saved, because they have at last awakened to their defects; but will they be regarded in the same light as are those whose lives have been devoted to the service of Christ? As one star differeth from another star in glory, so it will be with the saints in light.
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Re: Sinning Not
#11066
10/20/04 05:46 PM
10/20/04 05:46 PM
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Here's are some more interesting quotes about defective traits of character:
Manuscript Releases Volume Eighteen, page 166, paragraph 2
Chapter Title: The Formation of Character
There are some who will not hear. So long have they chosen to follow their own way and their own wisdom, so long have they cherished defective hereditary and cultivated tendencies of character, that they are blind, and cannot see afar off. By them, principles are perverted; false standards are raised; tests are made that bear not the signature of heaven. Thus many of God's professed people are assimilating worldly ideas and forming characters that will exclude them from heaven. And yet some of these very ones make their boasts in the Lord as a people who do righteousness, and forsake not the ordinances of their God.--Ms 138, 1902. Ellen G. White Estate Washington, D. C. Dec. 17, 1987. Entire Ms.
Testimony to the Church, page 27, paragraph 1
The true followers of Christ will not choose intimate friendship with those whose characters have serious defects, and whose example as a whole it would not be safe to follow, while it is their privilege to associate with persons who observe a conscientious regard to their duties in their business, and the duties of religion. Those who lack principle and devotion generally have a more positive influence to mold the minds of their intimate friends than those have whose characters seem well balanced to control and influence the defective in character, and those lacking spirituality and devotion.
The Youth's Instructor, January 9, 1896, paragraph 4
Article Title: Those Who Are Blessed
We may multiply forms and ceremonies, and heap resolution upon resolution, and be nothing better for all these things. What we need is purity of heart; and God can give us this as a free gift of his grace. Many blame circumstances for their defective characters. They say, "I could do so much better if things were only different; but this one tries me, and that one vexes me, and that is the reason that I am not a better Christian." But this is a deception. There is grace with God to enable you to serve him just where you are, and excuses of this order have no weight with him. Do not charge your circumstances with your failure. The Lord knows where you are, and he would have you practise those things which make for godliness.
Advent Review and Sabbath Herald, August 28, 1900, paragraph 7
Article Title: Partakers of the Divine Nature
These directions to the elders of the church are to be heeded. If God, the great Master worker, is with his servants, they will reveal this fact in their daily conduct. Among those who have the oversight of the flock of God are men who bear the stamp of defective characters. They are not walking with Christ. Their piety is not sound and healthful; it is of a cheap order. These need to learn what constitutes true religion. Religion is not a patchwork concern, which makes everything of the Christian's name, and in which self is personified. A man's religion must be founded on the word of God. Practiced in the home life, and exemplified in the church, it will constitute him a laborer together with God.
Advent Review and Sabbath Herald, June 28, 1898, paragraph 5
Article Title: The Lord's Supper and the Ordinance of Feet-Washing--No. 5
The Lord understands all the defects in human character. He desires to save man. It was for this purpose that he came to this world. In him all sufficiency dwells. In him dwells all "the fulness of the Godhead bodily." The defective characters that remain thus, when One is among them who came to our world for the express purpose of taking away the sin of the world, make manifest that they do not appreciate the attributes of Christ sufficiently to hunger and thirst after righteousness, and they will not be exalted as worthy. "Blessed are the meek," were the words that fell from his divine lips; "for they shall inherit the earth. Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled. Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy. Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God. Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God."
Advent Review and Sabbath Herald, September 5, 1893, paragraph 2
Article Title: The Remnant Church Not Babylon (Continued)
Jesus knew that Judas was defective in character, but notwithstanding this, he accepted him as one of the disciples, and gave him the same opportunities and privileges that he gave to the others whom he had chosen. Judas was left without excuse in the evil course he afterward pursued. Judas might have become a doer of the word, as were eventually Peter and James and John and the other disciples. Jesus gave precious lessons of instruction, so that those who were associated with him might have been converted, and have no need of clinging to the defects that marred their characters.
Advent Review and Sabbath Herald, November 18, 1890, paragraph 3
Article Title: A Peculiar People
The enemy of Christ, who rebelled against God's law in heaven, has, as a skilled, trained general, worked with all his power, bringing out one device after another, full of deception, to make of none effect the law of God, the only true detector of sin, the standard of righteousness. The great mass of mankind are thoughtless, careless, irreverent, and they do not concern themselves with serious thoughts as to the things of eternal importance. One reason for the state of carelessness in society is that the Christian world itself has made void the law of God. Large numbers claim sanctification who will not hear to the binding obligation of the divine precepts. They are willfully ignorant of the attributes of God, ignorant of the law, ignorant of what constitutes genuine religion, and ignorant of their own sinful, defective characters. If the truth as it is in Jesus should flash upon their hearts, they would be constrained to cry out, "Unclean, unclean." They would, if candid, have to repent of their transgression of God's law; for "by the law is the knowledge of sin;" they would have to exercise faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ, whose blood alone can cleanse from all sin. Then they would have the peace of Christ. Righteousness and peace would meet together in their experience, and they would be able to become symmetrical Christians. They would have the peace that passeth understanding.
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Re: Sinning Not
#11067
10/20/04 09:16 PM
10/20/04 09:16 PM
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quote:
How can sins of ignorance misrepresent God's character?
Let's say a person believes the soul is immortal. Because of this belief this person believes Hell is eternal, and presents God as punishing the wicked for as long as He shall live. This certainly is misrepresenting God's character, and is called "blasphemy" by the Spirit of Prophesy, yet it is a sin of ignorance.
God is far better than we can imagine. We come far, far short of correctly representing Him. It is as we learn His true character that we can represent Him better. We learn His true character by beholding Him in Jesus Christ. This is why it is recommended that we spend a thoughtful hour each day contemplating the life of Christ, especially the latter scenes.
"Christ crucified,--talk it, pray it, sing it, and it will break and win hearts." (CS 130)
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Re: Sinning Not
#11068
10/20/04 10:24 PM
10/20/04 10:24 PM
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Tom, I agree. The doctrine of eternal torment certainly misrepresents the character of God. But misunderstanding the truth about the lake of fire is not a sin, a defective trait of character. Sin is the transgression of the law.
Contemplating the life of Christ is definitely a major part of being a Christian. But it is not an excuse for retaining defective traits of character. The idea that born again believers gradually outgrow their moral imperfections after a lifetime of sinning and repenting is unbiblical.
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Re: Sinning Not
#11069
10/21/04 01:49 AM
10/21/04 01:49 AM
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The Spirit of Prophesy calls the doctrine of eternal hell "dreadful blasphemy." How can "dreadful blasphemy" not be a sin? It's an unknown sin, assuming the person is ignorant of the truth, but a sin nonetheless. The law is a transcript of God's character. If we represent His character in a way that is untrue, that is transgression of the law. The only way to overcome defective traits of character is by contemplating Christ. This is not an excuse, but a remedy. ====== Removed the quote of the preceding post. - Daryl [ October 21, 2004, 12:53 PM: Message edited by: Daryl Fawcett ]
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Re: Sinning Not
#11070
10/21/04 03:33 AM
10/21/04 03:33 AM
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Tom, the idea that born again believers gradually outgrow moral imperfections is unbiblical. Overcoming a defective trait of character, which is different than outgrowing it, means resisting the temptation to resurrect the old man and commit a known sin. It has nothing to do with sins of ignorance. Again, it is not a sin to misunderstand the doctrine of death and eternal punishment.
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Re: Sinning Not
#11071
10/21/04 04:58 AM
10/21/04 04:58 AM
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quote:
Again, it is not a sin to misunderstand the doctrine of death and eternal punishment.
How can "dreadful blasphemy" not be a sin?
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Re: Sinning Not
#11072
10/21/04 05:59 AM
10/21/04 05:59 AM
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Misunderstanding the truth may be the result of living in a sinful world, but it is not a moral defect of character. Yes, it is a mental defect, but not a moral one.
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Re: Sinning Not
#11073
10/22/04 03:11 AM
10/22/04 03:11 AM
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Saying that you are sinless is a sin in itself. Its called a lie, so by lying you have sinned, by saying you are sinless you have deceived yourself and are calling God a liar, and we all know fully well that nothing that defileth shall enter the kingdom of heaven. Instead of looking at ourselves at how "spotless" "our" lives are we need to look to Jesus and see the true wretched poor excuse of a human we really are, and the only righteousness we will ever have is Christ's righteousness and not ours.
Jesus said that if your righteousness exceeded that of the Pharisees and the Scribes then you would not enter the kingdom of heaven.. I praise God for giving me the gift of eternal life by believing in Christ, and that I can do all things through Him, and if I mess up... Well I can go and ask for forgiveness AND be forgiven. I dont count how many times I have have sinned or have not. God doesn't so why should I.
God Bless,
Will
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Re: Sinning Not
#11074
10/22/04 03:25 AM
10/22/04 03:25 AM
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What I wrote was this:
"Any sin is coming short of the glory of God and makes a person not sinless. Sin, whether known or unknown, misrepresents God's character. Since by beholding we become changed, it is imperative that we behold God as He really is in Christ Jesus. This is why it would be good to spend a thoughtful hour contemplating the life of Christ each day, especially the latter scenes."
You asked how a sin of ignorance could misrepresent God's character. I explained that.
Your latest post is not responsive to what I'm saying, which is that the most important thing we have to do is to represent God's character as well as possible. Sin, any sin, misrepresents God.
If we focus our efforts to understand God and correctly represent Him, which we do by learning of His revelation of Himself in Jesus Christ, there is no question that God will perfect our characters, which includes victory over all sin, whether known or unknown. However, if we focus on sin, instead of on Christ, that won't happen.
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Re: Sinning Not
#11075
10/22/04 03:30 AM
10/22/04 03:30 AM
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Matthew
5:16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.
Revelation
19:8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
1 John
3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
People who insist that the righteousness of born again believers is filthy rags are deceivers, according to the Word of God.
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Re: Sinning Not
#11076
10/22/04 03:56 AM
10/22/04 03:56 AM
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Tom, I agree with you that making Jesus first, last and best in our life is the only way we can reproduce His lovely character. That's not what I'm disputing. Please understand me.
It seems to me that you are excusing sin by saying born again believers gradually outgrow their defective traits of character by sinning less and less. But the Bible doesn't describe it the same way. Neither does Sister White.
Yes, false doctrines misrepresent God. But sins of ignorance, like breaking the Sabbath, does not. Born again believers are not guilty of committing a known sin when they unwittingly violate the Sabbath.
Therefore, if they are abiding in Christ, they are morally sinless. Yes, they may be doctrinally defective, but sins of ignorance do not and cannot contaminate the moral character. We must first choose to violate our conscience and convictions before we are morally guilty. No choice, no moral sin.
GC 510
No man without his own consent can be overcome by Satan. The tempter has no power to control the will or to force the soul to sin. He may distress, but he cannot contaminate. He can cause agony, but not defilement. The fact that Christ has conquered should inspire His followers with courage to fight manfully the battle against sin and Satan. {GC 510.3}
4T 294, 295
Man, who has defaced the image of God in his soul by a corrupt life, cannot, by mere human effort, effect a radical change in himself. He must accept the provisions of the gospel; he must be reconciled to God through obedience to His law and faith in Jesus Christ. His life from thenceforth must be governed by a new principle. Through repentance, faith, and good works he may perfect a righteous character, and claim, through the merits of Christ, the privileges of the sons of God. The principles of divine truth, received and cherished in the heart, will carry us to a height of moral excellence that we had not deemed it possible for us to reach. "And it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when He shall appear, we shall be like Him; for we shall see Him as He is. And every man that hath this hope in Him purifieth himself, even as He is pure." {4T 294.2}
Here is a work for man to do. He must face the mirror, God's law, discern the defects in his moral character, and put away his sins, washing his robe of character in the blood of the Lamb. Envy, pride, malice, deceit, strife, and crime will be cleansed from the heart that is a recipient of the love of Christ and that cherishes the hope of being made like Him when we shall see Him as He is. The religion of Christ refines and dignifies its possessor, whatever his associations or station in life may be. Men who become enlightened Christians rise above the level of their former character into greater mental and moral strength. Those fallen and degraded by sin and crime may, through the merits of the Saviour, be exalted to a position but little lower than that of the angels. {4T 294.3}
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Re: Sinning Not
#11077
10/21/04 04:08 PM
10/21/04 04:08 PM
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Will wrote: quote:
I dont count how many times I have have sinned or have not. God doesn't so why should I.
Sister White wrote: quote:
GC 481, 482
There is a record also of the sins of men. "For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil." Every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment." Says the Saviour: "By thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned." Ecclesiastes 12:14; Matthew 12:36, 37. The secret purposes and motives appear in the unerring register; for God "will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts." I Corinthians 4:5. "Behold, it is written before Me, . . . your iniquities, and the iniquities of your fathers together, saith the Lord." Isaiah 65:6, 7. {GC 481.2}
Every man's work passes in review before God and is registered for faithfulness or unfaithfulness. Opposite each name in the books of heaven is entered with terrible exactness every wrong word, every selfish act, every unfulfilled duty, and every secret sin, with every artful dissembling. Heaven-sent warnings or reproofs neglected, wasted moments, unimproved opportunities, the influence exerted for good or for evil, with its far-reaching results, all are chronicled by the recording angel. {GC 482.1}
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Re: Sinning Not
#11078
10/21/04 04:41 PM
10/21/04 04:41 PM
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Mike Lowe said that born again believers are not guilty of committing a known sin when they unwittingly violate the Sabbath.
How about when they unwittingly violate the 4th Commandment? Isn't that part of the moral law?
Can they unwittingly violate the 3rd, the 6th, the 8th?
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Re: Sinning Not
#11079
10/21/04 05:17 PM
10/21/04 05:17 PM
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God reveals to us in His word: quote:
Psalms 103:8-12
8 The LORD is merciful and gracious, slow to anger, and plenteous in mercy.
9 He will not always chide: neither will he keep his anger for ever.
10 He hath not dealt with us after our sins; nor rewarded us according to our iniquities.
11 For as the heaven is high above the earth, so great is his mercy toward them that fear him.
12 As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us.
Just in case:
quote:
Isaiah 43:25
25 I, even I, am he that blotteth out thy transgressions for mine own sake, and will not remember thy sins.
Looks like God will not only blot out your sins, but also NOT remember them. The Bible is very clear about this.
God Bless,
Will
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Re: Sinning Not
#11080
10/21/04 09:29 PM
10/21/04 09:29 PM
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quote:
Tom, I agree with you that making Jesus first, last and best in our life is the only way we can reproduce His lovely character. That's not what I'm disputing. Please understand me.
It seems to me that you are excusing sin by saying born again believers gradually outgrow their defective traits of character by sinning less and less. But the Bible doesn't describe it the same way. Neither does Sister White.
What I am saying is that the important issue is the revelation of God's character. Eternal life is knowing God. God saves us be revealing Himself to us. This He does through Jesus Christ. Any sin falsely reveals God, whether known or not.
Our goal should be to correctly represent God. The way to do this is perceive Him as He is, and represent Him as He is.
Take the Pharisees as an example. Some of them may not have been committing known sins. It appears Paul, or Saul, wasn't since he said he did all things according to his conscience. Yet he was certainly misrepresenting God. In fact, he was persecuting God, without knowing it.
The only way to overcome sin, IMO, is to believe God's revelation of Himself in Jesus Christ. Anyone who does this will be made perfect. I have repeatedly quoted the following:
"God has made provision that we may become like unto Him, and He will accomplish this for all who do not interpose a perverse will and thus frustrate His grace." MB 76
This quote in a commentary on "Be ye therefore perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect." To be perfect is to be like Christ. God will make anyone like Christ who does not resist Him. This is perfection. This is victory of sin. This is not an excuse to sin, but the only way to overcome it.
I don't look at the process as "sinning less and less." The way I look at the process is as becoming more and more like Christ.
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Re: Sinning Not
#11081
10/21/04 11:14 PM
10/21/04 11:14 PM
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quote:
Can they unwittingly violate the 3rd, the 6th, the 8th?
Not if they are being led and empowered by the Holy Spirit. The Sabbath is the only commandment that a born again believer can unwittingly violate, that is, without realizing it.
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Re: Sinning Not
#11082
10/21/04 11:17 PM
10/21/04 11:17 PM
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Will, according to the Bible when will God blot out our record and memory of specific sins? What happens to them until that time?
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Re: Sinning Not
#11083
10/21/04 11:27 PM
10/21/04 11:27 PM
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Tom wrote: quote:
I don't look at the process as "sinning less and less." The way I look at the process is as becoming more and more like Christ.
Amen! That's what I've been saying all along. So long as we are born again, so long as our old man is dead and buried, so long as we are abiding in Christ, so long as we are walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man, so long as we are partaking of the divine nature - we do not and cannot commit a known sin.
The growth we experience, in Christ, involves maturing in the fruits of the Spirit from grace to grace, from faith to faith, from glory to glory - more and more unto the perfect day. We do not become more like Jesus by becoming less like Satan. The idea that we gradually outgrow our moral defects of character after we are born again is unbiblical.
Proverbs
4:18 But the path of the just [is] as the shining light, that shineth more and more unto the perfect day.
John
1:16 And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.
Romans
1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
2 Corinthians
3:18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, [even] as by the Spirit of the Lord.
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Re: Sinning Not
#11084
10/21/04 11:52 PM
10/21/04 11:52 PM
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God blots out sins when:
1. A person has asked for forgiveness
2. The person gives their life to the Lord.
An unforgiven sin is the one that keeps you out of heaven.
God Bless,
Will
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Re: Sinning Not
#11085
10/22/04 01:10 AM
10/22/04 01:10 AM
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Will, if God blots out the record and memory of our specific sins the moment we are forgiven:
1. Why are we able to recall them afterwards.
2. What is the purpose of the investigative judgment?
FLB 212
As the books of record are opened in the judgment, the lives of all who have believed on Jesus come in review before God. Beginning with those who first lived upon the earth, our Advocate presents the cases of each successive generation, and closes with the living. Every name is mentioned, every case closely investigated. Names are accepted, names rejected. When any have sins remaining upon the books of record, unrepented of and unforgiven, their names will be blotted out of the book of life, and the record of their good deeds will be erased from the book of God's remembrance. . . . {FLB 212.2}
All who have truly repented of sin, and by faith claimed the blood of Christ as their atoning sacrifice, have had pardon entered against their names in the books of heaven; as they have become partakers of the righteousness of Christ, and their characters are found to be in harmony with the law of God, their sins will be blotted out, and they themselves will be accounted worthy of eternal life. . . . {FLB 212.3}
3 SG 135
Those who have delayed a preparation for the day of God cannot obtain it in the time of trouble, or at any future period. The righteous will not cease their earnest agonizing cries for deliverance. They cannot bring to mind any particular sins, but in their whole life they can see but little good. Their sins had gone beforehand to judgment, and pardon had been written. Their sins had been borne away into the land of forgetfulness, and they could not bring them to remembrance. {3SG 134.2}
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Re: Sinning Not
#11086
10/22/04 02:45 AM
10/22/04 02:45 AM
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quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Can they unwittingly violate the 3rd, the 6th, the 8th?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Not if they are being led and empowered by the Holy Spirit. The Sabbath is the only commandment that a born again believer can unwittingly violate, that is, without realizing it.
Christ amplified the law. A commandment can be broken by a look, by a thought.
There is no sin that can be committed that is not a violation of the law. Whatsoever is not of faith is sin. Do you really think it's not possible for a person to not have faith and not know it? Sorry for so many negatives. Let's try it this way. Do you really think it's not possible for a born again believer to doubt in any way without realizing it? If not, then that would mean all born again believers have perfect faith.
The law is exceedingly broad. In any way that we are not perfectly like Christ, we fall short. Any non-perfect person is unwittingly committing sins. Any commandment can be unwittingly broken.
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Re: Sinning Not
#11087
10/22/04 03:06 AM
10/22/04 03:06 AM
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quote:
I don't look at the process as "sinning less and less." The way I look at the process is as becoming more and more like Christ.
-------------------------------------------------
Amen! That's what I've been saying all along. So long as we are born again, so long as our old man is dead and buried, so long as we are abiding in Christ, so long as we are walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man, so long as we are partaking of the divine nature - we do not and cannot commit a known sin.
I'm sorry to disagree with you, since you're agreeing with me, but we are not saying the same thing. I am saying that the process of sanctification is becoming more and more like Christ by beholding God as He is revealed in Christ. You are saying we cannot commit a known sin if we abide in Christ. My emphasis is on beholding Christ. Your emphasis is on a theory you hold about not being able to commit known sins.
quote:
The growth we experience, in Christ, involves maturing in the fruits of the Spirit from grace to grace, from faith to faith, from glory to glory - more and more unto the perfect day.
Yes. We grow from more and more unto the perfect day as the light of God's love, His character, is shed abroad in our hearts. As we learn the truth about God, we are transformed into His likeness.
quote:
We do not become more like Jesus by becoming less like Satan.
If we become more and more like Christ, it is certainly true we will be becomming less and less like Satan. It looks like you are saying the means is not by becoming less and less like Satan. I agree with this. The means is by being transformed by beholding the loveliness of Christ.
quote:
The idea that we gradually outgrow our moral defects of character after we are born again is unbiblical.
I suppose it depends on how you define a moral defect in character. Since the law of God is written in the heart when one is born again, as soon as one is born again one is brought into harmony with God and with His law. The is the New Covenant. I agree with this.
However, when we are born again, we are not exactly like Christ. He is still better than we are. We do not perfectly reflect God's character. We have room for growth.
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Re: Sinning Not
#11088
10/22/04 04:30 AM
10/22/04 04:30 AM
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Mike I think we got our wires crossed: quote:
Will, if God blots out the record and memory of our specific sins the moment we are forgiven:
The verses I quoted are talking about Him. God blots out the record of sin, and remembers them no more i.e. "Whats in the past will stay there", not that He erases our minds the moment we are converted which is what I wanted to clarify.
God Bless,
Will
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Re: Sinning Not
#11089
10/22/04 05:11 AM
10/22/04 05:11 AM
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Tom, some people think sin is so systemic, so pervasive, that born again believers always come short of the glory God, in one way or another, and that they will never be completely free of sin until Jesus returns. I'm not saying that's what you're saying.
I believe the Bible and the SOP teach that born again believers are morally sinless, that is, they do not and cannot commit a known sin while they are connected to Christ. That includes all aspects of known sin. I do not believe there is such a thing as unknown defective traits of character. Yes, there is plenty of room to grow in grace and to mature in the fruits of the Spirit, but such growth does not involve becoming less and less morally defective or imperfect.
We begin at rebirth where Jesus began at birth. In the same way Jesus grew in grace, mentally and morally, as He progressed from childhood to manhood, so too born again believers grow in grace, mentally and morally. With Jesus as our example, it is clear to me that the growth we experience, while abiding in Jesus, does not involve becoming more and more righteous by becoming less and less defective. Jesus was nothing like Satan, and neither are we, so long as we are connected to Him.
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Re: Sinning Not
#11090
10/22/04 05:16 AM
10/22/04 05:16 AM
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Will, the Bible sasys God will not forget our sins until after they are blotted out during the investigative judgment. In the meantime, though, He doesn't throw them in our face if we take our eyes off Jesus and blow it. Thank you, Jesus.
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Re: Sinning Not
#11091
10/22/04 05:23 AM
10/22/04 05:23 AM
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Amen to that!
God Bless,
Will
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Re: Sinning Not
#11092
10/22/04 05:29 AM
10/22/04 05:29 AM
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Mike said, quote:
I do not believe there is such a thing as unknown defective traits of character.
The only way that can be true, that we can't have unknown defective traits of character, is if we're omniscient, having perfect knowledge of ourselves. But that's not the case. God can reveal faults to us over time, but we don't become 100% aware of every fault we have instantly at conversion.
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Re: Sinning Not
#11093
10/23/04 03:18 AM
10/23/04 03:18 AM
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I agree with you on that John.
God Bless,
Will
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Re: Sinning Not
#11094
10/23/04 03:32 AM
10/23/04 03:32 AM
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John, good point. However, even unconverted people are fully aware of their imperfections, and are capable, without the aid of the Holy Spirit, of making outward corrections. "They may produce an outward correctness of behavior, but they cannot change the heart; they cannot purify the springs of life." SC 18.
So, even before we are born again we are already aware of our moral defects, and some of us work to correct them, and manage to do pretty well for ourselves. But the difference is when we see our sinful traits of character in light of the cross. And that's what happens during the process of conversion, before we experience the miracle of rebirth.
It is during the process of conversion that God reveals our old man habits of sin, in light of the cross, no faster than He is able to influence us to confess them. It's not that we are unaware of them, but that we are seeing them, for the first time, in light of the cross. But according to the Bible and Sister White, the old man does not actually die until we confess the last of our revealed defects. Once dead, we are free from sin, we are no longer the slaves of sin, self or Satan.
God implants within us the sinless mind of the new man the moment we are born again. This mind comes complete with all of the holy character attributes of God and all of the fruits of the Spirit. Not one is missing. Although we are born again morally complete in Christ, we are not born again morally mature. Like Jesus, we must grow in grace and mature morally.
But growth in grace does not involve gradually discovering and overcoming so-called unknown moral imperfections. All that happens during the process of conversion, before we are born again, before we receive the sinless mind of the new mind. Besides, there is no such thing as an unknown defective trait of character. If we are abiding in Christ, we grow from grace to grace, from faith to faith, from glory to glory - not from greater sins to lesser sins.
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Re: Sinning Not
#11095
10/23/04 03:38 AM
10/23/04 03:38 AM
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By the way - Happy 160th anniversary, Everybody. Hopefully we can finish the gospel commission before the next anniversary. God help us!
October 22, 1844.
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Re: Sinning Not
#11096
10/22/04 04:41 PM
10/22/04 04:41 PM
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If I understand what you are saying Mike is that a person prior to being converted are already made aware of their defective moral imperfections, and after they are converted they are perfect and can will sin no more?
God Bless,
Will
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Re: Sinning Not
#11097
10/22/04 06:22 PM
10/22/04 06:22 PM
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Will, that's pretty close to what I believe the Bible and the SOP says. During the process of conversion God shows us our moral defects in light of the cross. If we keep pace, and confess them as they are revealed, we eventually come to the last defect. When we confess our last defect our old man (i.e., defective traits of character) dies. Then we are born again a new man in Christ. And, so long as we are abiding in Christ, we do not and cannot commit a known, that is, repeat one of our former sins. We will feel the urge, the temptation, to sin like we used to, but in Christ we are able to resist unto the honor and glory of God. If we do sin, the Holy Spirit immediately begins offering us the free gift of repentance, which empowers us to confess and forsake our sin. Then God restores the relationship our sin severed, and we resume walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man.
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Re: Sinning Not
#11098
10/22/04 07:26 PM
10/22/04 07:26 PM
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Hi Mike,
So the Spirit and mind of the new man is to seek Christ and as we look to Him then we see who we truly are or something along those lines correct?
God Bless,
Will
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Re: Sinning Not
#11099
10/22/04 10:55 PM
10/22/04 10:55 PM
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Sort of. Once our old man is dead and buried, once we are walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man, our defective traits of character have already been revealed, confessed and forsaken. Thus, it's a done deal.
However, our sinful flesh nature (not our old man defects and imperfections) continues to bombard us with unholy thoughts and feelings, which we must disown as the voice of Satan. Sometimes, though, it is hard to tell the difference between being tempted and being guilty of them.
But, it is not a sin to be tempted, and all temptations begin as unholy thoughts and feelings. If we immediately turn to Jesus, to resist them, we are not guilty. Too many believers, however, automatically assume they are guilty.
Some people are under the impression that once a defective trait of character is crucified they will no longer be tempted in that area. But this assumption is unbiblical. Yes, some old habits die out completely, never to harass us again, but most must be guarded against until Jesus returns - impatience, anger, jealousy, pride, etc.
Since our old man is dead, such things originate from within our sinful nature. And sinful nature is something we will have to war against until Jesus returns and replaces it with a sinless one. So, we have to be careful not to confuse sinful nature and sinful character. If we're not careful, we are likely to twist the promises of God to serve a lie.
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Re: Sinning Not
#11100
10/23/04 06:19 AM
10/23/04 06:19 AM
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quote:
When Satan tempted Eve, he induced her to doubt God’s character. He incited her to believe God did not have her best interests at heart. He was withholding something better from her. Satan flat out declared that God was lying. When Eve believed Satan, and Adam chose to join her, the human race became rebels whose hearts were filled with doubt.
When God presented Adam and Eve with the animal skin, representing the righteousness of Christ, something very important happened of which we should take note. God presented them with His gift before they had done anything, other than run and hide from Him. This shows that the giving of salvation is independent of anything we do. It is the goodness of God that leads to repentance.
Since the wages of sin is death, Adam and Eve would have died had God not intervened. The entire human race would have perished. But God did intervene (“as soon as there was sin, there was a Savior”) by instituting the Plan of Salvation. Because of this intervention, the human race was saved. Christ in the gift of Himself to the human race gave it an existence out of Himself. God united the fallen human race with divinity and thus reconciled it with Himself. God treats everybody, not just those who believe in Him, but everybody, as though they had never sinned. He treats them as well as He treated His own Son. God does not condemn them. He does not count their sins against them. This is legal justification.
Do you agree with this, Mike?
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Re: Sinning Not
#11101
10/24/04 03:19 AM
10/24/04 03:19 AM
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Tom, I addressed this post somewhere. I agree with the following points:
1. Salvation has been available since the first sin.
2. We are born sinful and sinning.
3. The goodness of God motivates us to repent.
4. If we do not resist the Holy Spirit we will experience the miracle of rebirth.
5. The Holy Spirit empowers us to recognize and resist sin, self and Satan.
But I do not believe everyone is pardoned and counted sinless. Only those who accept Jesus as their personal saviour are justified and forgiven. Jesus cannot and will not justify unforgiven sinners, because there is no excuse for sinning.
FW 100
But while God can be just, and yet justify the sinner through the merits of Christ, no man can cover his soul with the garments of Christ's righteousness while practicing known sins or neglecting known duties. God requires the entire surrender of the heart, before justification can take place; and in order for man to retain justification, there must be continual obedience, through active, living faith that works by love and purifies the soul. {FW 100.1}
RC 96
The law of God is the only true standard of moral perfection. That law was practically exemplified in the life of Christ. He says of Himself, "I have kept my Father's commandments" (John 15:10). Nothing short of this obedience will meet the requirements of God's Word. "He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked" (1 John 2:6). We cannot plead that we are unable to do this, for we have the assurance, "My grace is sufficient for thee" (2 Cor. 12:9). As we look into the divine mirror, the law of God, we see the exceeding sinfulness of sin, and our own lost condition as transgressors. But by repentance and faith we are justified before God, and through divine grace enabled to render obedience to His commandments. {RC 96.4}
3 SM 191, 192
It is important that we understand clearly the nature of faith. There are many who believe that Christ is the Saviour of the world, that the gospel is true and reveals the plan of salvation, yet they do not possess saving faith. They are intellectually convinced of the truth, but this is not enough; in order to be justified, the sinner must have that faith that appropriates the merits of Christ to his own soul. We read that the devils "believe, and tremble," but their belief does not bring them justification, neither will the belief of those who give a merely intellectual assent to the truths of the Bible bring them the benefits of salvation. This belief fails of reaching the vital point, for the truth does not engage the heart or transform the character. {3SM 191.4}
In genuine, saving faith, there is trust in God, through the belief in the great atoning sacrifice made by the Son of God on Calvary. In Christ, the justified believer beholds his only hope and deliverer. Belief may exist without trust, but confidence born of trust cannot exist without faith. Every sinner brought to a knowledge of the saving power of Christ, will make manifest this trust in greater degree as he advances in experience.-- Signs of the Times, Nov. 3, 1890. {3SM 192.1}
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Re: Sinning Not
#11102
10/24/04 12:15 AM
10/24/04 12:15 AM
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quote:
1. Salvation has been available since the first sin.
2. We are born sinful and sinning.
3. The goodness of God motivates us to repent.
4. If we do not resist the Holy Spirit we will experience the miracle of rebirth.
5. The Holy Spirit empowers us to recognize and resist sin, self and Satan.
On 1. I would say salvation has been given to every soul. That's a bit more than "available".
On 2, I don't understand what you mean. How is that new born babies are "sinning"? Are they "sinning" in the womb too?
quote:
But I do not believe everyone is pardoned and counted sinless.
Since the wages of sin is death, wouldn't a person be dead if their sins were counted against them?
"God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation." (2 Cor. 5:19)
"If thou, LORD, shouldest mark iniquities, O Lord, who shall stand?" (Ps. 130:3)
"In these words, Christ was speaking to every human being. Whether they know it or not, all are weary and heavy-laden. All are weighed down with burdens that only Christ can remove. The heaviest burden that we bear is the burden of sin. If we were left to bear this burden, it would crush us. But the Sinless One has taken our place. 'The Lord hath laid on Him the iniquity of us all.' Isaiah 53:6." (MH 71)
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Re: Sinning Not
#11103
10/24/04 12:57 AM
10/24/04 12:57 AM
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Tom, if everyone is already saved, then why the great controversy? Why 6,000 years of sin and suffering? What is God waiting for?
Do babies sin in the womb? The Bible says, "All have sinned." That must necessarily include babies in the womb. But they sin unwittingly, and the Bible says, "The times of this ignorance God winked at." Acts 17:30. Yes, babies sin, but they have no idea what they are doing, so they are counted guiltless, by the blood of Jesus. "Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin." Rom 4:8.
Romans
11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
Galatians
3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
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Re: Sinning Not
#11104
10/24/04 06:18 AM
10/24/04 06:18 AM
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quote:
Tom, if everyone is already saved, then why the great controversy? Why 6,000 years of sin and suffering? What is God waiting for?
From a legal standpoint God doesn't count people's sins against them during this life. This gives them the opportunity to be justified by faith. If God counted people's sins against them, they would die, for the wages of sin is death.
The Great Controversy is being fought to reveal the truth about God. God is not as the enemy has portraid Him to be. God is kind, gracious, infinitely good. His goodness gives all physical life, and leads all to repentence, if one does not interpose a perverse will and frustrate His grace. To the death of Christ, all owe even this earthly life.
The 6,000 years of sin and misery exist because people have exercized their free will to rebel. God is waiting for a people who will believe the truth.
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Re: Sinning Not
#11105
10/24/04 02:51 PM
10/24/04 02:51 PM
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But, Tom, since God is a loving Saviour, and if He counts everyone legally sinless - then what's He waiting for? What more needs to happen before He destroys sin and sinners in the lake of fire?
Also, how can God count rebellious sinners legally sinless if, indeed, they are guilty of sinning without excuse? What is the legal difference between sinners and saints if sinners are justified the same as saints? By the way, a saint is someone who has accepted Jesus as their personal Saviour. A sinner hasn't. And, how do you explain this quote:
FW
But while God can be just, and yet justify the sinner through the merits of Christ, no man can cover his soul with the garments of Christ's righteousness while practicing known sins or neglecting known duties. God requires the entire surrender of the heart, before justification can take place; and in order for man to retain justification, there must be continual obedience, through active, living faith that works by love and purifies the soul. {FW 100.1}
It sounds to me that our legal standing before God is conditional upon consistent and continual odedience.
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Re: Sinning Not
#11106
10/25/04 04:48 AM
10/25/04 04:48 AM
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quote:
But, Tom, since God is a loving Saviour, and if He counts everyone legally sinless - then what's He waiting for? What more needs to happen before He destroys sin and sinners in the lake of fire?
God is waiting for a people that will tell the truth about Him, that will present His character as it truly is. This is the work of the 144,000.
"Christ is waiting with longing desire for the manifestation of Himself in His church. When the character of Christ shall be perfectly reproduced in His people, then He will come to claim them as His own." (COL 69)
"Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love. The children of God are to manifest His glory. In their own life and character they are to reveal what the grace of God has done for them." (COL 415, 416)
quote:
Also, how can God count rebellious sinners legally sinless if, indeed, they are guilty of sinning without excuse?
He has to in order for them to have a probation in which they can be justified by faith.
"Our Lord has said, 'Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink His blood, ye have no life in you. . . . For My flesh is meat indeed, and My blood is drink indeed.' John 6:53-55. This is true of our physical nature. To the death of Christ we owe even this earthly life. The bread we eat is the purchase of His broken body. The water we drink is bought by His spilled blood. Never one, saint or sinner, eats his daily food, but he is nourished by the body and the blood of Christ." (DA 660)
"[Christ] took in His grasp the world over which Satan claimed to preside as his lawful territory, and by His wonderful work in giving His life, He restored the whole race of men to favor with God." (1SM 343)
quote:
What is the legal difference between sinners and saints if sinners are justified the same as saints? By the way, a saint is someone who has accepted Jesus as their personal Saviour. A sinner hasn't. And, how do you explain this quote:
FW
But while God can be just, and yet justify the sinner through the merits of Christ, no man can cover his soul with the garments of Christ's righteousness while practicing known sins or neglecting known duties. God requires the entire surrender of the heart, before justification can take place; and in order for man to retain justification, there must be continual obedience, through active, living faith that works by love and purifies the soul. {FW 100.1}
It sounds to me that our legal standing before God is conditional upon consistent and continual odedience.
Legal justification is something which happened for the entire human race "[Christ] restored the whole race of men to favor with God." This includes both those who have been justified by faith and those who haven't. It has to, or it wouldn't be "the whole race of men."
In the previous quote I quoted the following:
"In these words, Christ was speaking to every human being. Whether they know it or not, all are weary and heavy-laden. All are weighed down with burdens that only Christ can remove. The heaviest burden that we bear is the burden of sin. If we were left to bear this burden, it would crush us. But the Sinless One has taken our place. 'The Lord hath laid on Him the iniquity of us all.' Isaiah 53:6." (MH 71)
Notice that Christ is speaking to every human being. All are weighed down with burdens. We would be crushed if we had to bear these burdens. This is what will happen at the judgment. The wicked will have to bear their own burdens and they will be crushed. The wages of sin is death. But they are not crushed now because Christ is bearing their burdens. He can't wait until we're justified by faith to save us from the consequences of sin because we would be too dead to respond. He has to give us physical life, which is by virture of His death ("To the death of Christ we owe even this earthly life") or else we'd be physically dead, and unable to be justified by faith.
What causes people to be lost is not an arbitrary judgment on the part of God, or some legal standing, but the fact that in their hearts they are in actual fact rebels. God cannot take people to heaven who hate Him. He must restore them, save them first. Then He can take them to heaven.
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Re: Sinning Not
#11107
10/25/04 02:51 PM
10/25/04 02:51 PM
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As I see it, Tom, probation and salvation are not one and the same thing. I agree the blood of Jesus secured for the whole human race probation but not salvation or even justification. We must embrace Jesus, crucify our old man, be born again, abide in Jesus - before God can legally justify us, and continue to justify us, through the blood of Jesus. We must be born again and morally sinless, in Christ, before God can count us sinless.
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Re: Sinning Not
#11108
10/26/04 03:17 AM
10/26/04 03:17 AM
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"For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:" (Rom. 3:23, 24)
All have sinned. All is the subject. New verb "being justified" but same subject. All have sinned and all are justified. (Note, this is not justification by faith)
"Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life." (Rom. 5:18)
Same theme. By Adam all were condemened. By Christ all have received "justification of life."
"For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:" (2 Cor. 5:14)
When Christ died, all died in Him. His death restored the entire race of men to favor with God (1SM 343).
"To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation." (2 Cor. 5:19)
God does not impute (count) men's sins against them.
"I have swept away your offenses like a cloud,
your sins like the morning mist. Return to me, for I have redeemed you." (Isa. 44:22)
Before we "return" our transgressions have been "swept away."
It's true that we are given probation, but that probation only comes by virture of the death of Christ. If Christ had not died for us, we would not have physical life, and thus no chance to be justified by faith.
God treats everybody as if they had not sinned. If he treated anybody as if they had sinned, they would die, because the wages of sin is death. If we had to bear our own guilt, it would crush us. Christ is bearing our guilt before we know anything about him. (I've quoted these references above.)
Christ is the "Savior of the World." John calls Him this 3 times. Several times EGW tells us that "Christ saved the world." He did this be instituting the Plan of Salvation when Adam sinned. This does not mean that all will be saved at last (i.e. go to heaven) because many refuse to go, but it does mean that if Christ had not intervened to become our Savior, the human race would have perished when Adam died.
The Good News is that before we respond to the invitation of Christ, or even know anything about Him, He has already "saved" us (this is not personal salvation, but the salvation EGW is talking about when she says "Christ saved the world.") It is the death of Christ effective for our physical life which gives us the opportunity to respond to His invitation by faith.
Our faith does not change our legal standing, but it changes our heart. The whole problem is with us, not God. God cannot take rebels to heaven. But He can take friends.
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Re: Sinning Not
#11109
10/26/04 05:02 AM
10/26/04 05:02 AM
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quote:
(Note, this is not justification by faith)
I think we are on the same page. Jesus bought the human race probationary time, which enables us to live long enough to get it right, to accept Him, to live like Him. It is also why we are able to - Go, and sin no more. Not sinning and moral sinlessness are one and the same thing.
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Re: Sinning Not
#11110
10/27/04 05:09 PM
10/27/04 05:09 PM
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Again, Sister White makes it very, very plain that believers are born again without their former defects of character, that they are born again morally sinless.
DA 324
When the soul surrenders itself to Christ, a new power takes possession of the new heart. A change is wrought which man can never accomplish for himself. It is a supernatural work, bringing a supernatural element into human nature. The soul that is yielded to Christ becomes His own fortress, which He holds in a revolted world, and He intends that no authority shall be known in it but His own. A soul thus kept in possession by the heavenly agencies is impregnable to the assaults of Satan. But unless we do yield ourselves to the control of Christ, we shall be dominated by the wicked one. We must inevitably be under the control of the one or the other of the two great powers that are contending for the supremacy of the world. It is not necessary for us deliberately to choose the service of the kingdom of darkness in order to come under its dominion. We have only to neglect to ally ourselves with the kingdom of light. If we do not co-operate with the heavenly agencies, Satan will take possession of the heart, and will make it his abiding place. The only defense against evil is the indwelling of Christ in the heart through faith in His righteousness. Unless we become vitally connected with God, we can never resist the unhallowed effects of self-love, self-indulgence, and temptation to sin. We may leave off many bad habits, for the time we may part company with Satan; but without a vital connection with God, through the surrender of ourselves to Him moment by moment, we shall be overcome. Without a personal acquaintance with Christ, and a continual communion, we are at the mercy of the enemy, and shall do his bidding in the end. (DA 324)
COL 38
In every command and in every promise of the word of God is the power, the very life of God, by which the command may be fulfilled and the promise realized. He who by faith receives the word is receiving the very life and character of God. (COL 38)
COL 57, 58
At the very outset of the Christian life every believer should be taught its foundation principles. He should be taught that he is not merely to be saved by Christ’s sacrifice, but that he is to make the life of Christ his life and the character of Christ his character. (COL 57, 58)
COL 60
The word of God often comes in collision with man’s hereditary and cultivated traits of character and his habits of life. But the good-ground hearer, in receiving the word, accepts all its conditions and requirements. His habits, customs, and practices are brought into submission to God’s word. (COL 60)
COL 333
As the will of man co-operates with the will of God, it becomes omnipotent. Whatever is to be done at His command may be accomplished in His strength. All His biddings are enablings. (COL 333)
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Re: Sinning Not
#11111
10/27/04 10:27 PM
10/27/04 10:27 PM
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There's another EGW quote I forgot to mention. It says that Christ signed the emancipations papers of the human race with His blood.
Christ's death has a benefit for every person, even those who reject Him. "To the death of Christ, we owe even this earhly life." He is "the Savior of the world" because "He saved the world." This means that a person is saved be believing the good news of what God has already done for them in Christ.
Justification by faith is God's way of changing rebels into friends. God is not changed, because He doesn't need changing, but we are changed when we believe the truth about God which is revealed in Jesus Christ.
Is there any difference between being morally sinless and being in harmony with God and His law? Is it a defect of character to less than Christ in some way? (e.g. not as generours as Christ, or not as kind as Christ, or not as tactful as Christ)
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Re: Sinning Not
#11112
10/27/04 11:34 PM
10/27/04 11:34 PM
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quote:
Is there any difference between being morally sinless and being in harmony with God and His law? Is it a defect of character to less than Christ in some way? (e.g. not as generours as Christ, or not as kind as Christ, or not as tactful as Christ)
I believe being morally sinless and being in harmony with the law and character of God are one and the same thing. Defective traits of character are manifested as sinful thoughts, words or behaviour. Each trait is the result of habitual sinful choices. Being less mature in the fruits of the Spirit is not a defect of character. Jesus will always be more advanced, more mature, in the fruits of the Spirit. We will be maturing in the fruits of the Spirit throughout eternity. We can imitate, but we cannot equal, the righteousness of Christ.
TMK 265
Christ is our pattern, the perfect and holy example that has been given us to follow. We can never equal the Pattern, but we may imitate and resemble it according to our ability. When we fall, all helpless, suffering in consequence of our realization of the sinfulness of sin; when we humble ourselves before God, afflicting our souls by true repentance and contrition; when we offer our fervent prayers to God in the name of Christ; we shall as surely be received by the Father as we sincerely make a complete surrender of our all to God. We should realize in our inmost soul that all our efforts in and of ourselves will be utterly worthless, for it is only in the name and strength of the Conqueror that we shall be overcomers. {TMK 265.2}
2T 549
Ministers especially should know the character and works of Christ, that they may imitate Him; for the character and works of a true Christian are like His. He laid aside His glory, His dominion, His riches, and sought after those who were perishing in sin. He humbled Himself to our necessities, that He might exalt us to heaven. Sacrifice, self-denial, and disinterested benevolence characterized His life. He is our pattern. Have you, Brother A, imitated the Pattern? I answer: No. He is a perfect and holy example, given for us to imitate. We cannot equal the pattern; but we shall not be approved of God if we do not copy it and, according to the ability which God has given, resemble it. Love for souls for whom Christ died will lead to a denial of self and a willingness to make any sacrifice in order to be co-workers with Christ in the salvation of souls. {2T 549.1}
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Re: Sinning Not
#11113
10/27/04 11:44 PM
10/27/04 11:44 PM
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Here's one of those "emancipation papers" quotations:
MH 89, 90
Jesus knows the circumstances of every soul. The greater the sinner's guilt, the more he needs the Saviour. His heart of divine love and sympathy is drawn out most of all for the one who is the most hopelessly entangled in the snares of the enemy. With His own blood He has signed the emancipation papers of the race. {MH 89.3}
Jesus does not desire those who have been purchased at such a cost to become the sport of the enemy's temptations. He does not desire us to be overcome and perish. He who curbed the lions in their den, and walked with His faithful witnesses amid the fiery flames, is just as ready to work in our behalf to subdue every evil in our nature. Today He is standing at the altar of mercy, presenting before God the prayers of those who desire His help. He turns no weeping, contrite one away. Freely will He pardon all who come to Him for forgiveness and restoration. He does not tell to any all that He might reveal, but He bids every trembling soul take courage. Whosoever will, may take hold of God's strength, and make peace with Him, and He will make peace. {MH 90.1}
The souls that turn to Him for refuge, Jesus lifts above the accusing and the strife of tongues. No man or evil angel can impeach these souls. Christ unites them to His own divine-human nature. They stand besides the great Sin Bearer in the light proceeding from the throne of God. {MH 90.2}
The blood of Jesus Christ cleanses "from all sin." 1 John 1:7. {MH 90.3}
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Re: Sinning Not
#11114
10/28/04 02:00 AM
10/28/04 02:00 AM
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If Christ is more generous than we are, can it be said that we are stingier than Christ? If Christ is more tactful than we are, can it be said that we are more tactless than Christ?
If you view "moral sinlessness" as the same thing as being in harmony with God, or in harmony with God's law, why don't you just say that when someone is justified by faith they are brought into harmony with God or in harmony with God's law? I think you would get a lot more agreement if you said that. The problem with the language you use is people don't understand what you mean.
I could prove this by starting a thread and asking if people believe that when you are justified by faith you are brought into harmony with God and God's law. Many people would agree with this statement, I'm sure.
Since you say "morally sinless" and "being in harmony with God and God's law" are "one in the same thing" why not use language that will be understood?
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Re: Sinning Not
#11115
10/28/04 04:57 AM
10/28/04 04:57 AM
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If we compare moral maturity to light we would say Jesus is like sunlight whereas we are like candlelight. The difference between the two is intensity of light - not darkness. Just because Jesus is more advanced than we are it doesn't mean we are sinful in some way.
The reason I use the language I do to describe rebirth is because that is the language the Bible and the SOP use to describe it. Euphemizing the truth with scaled down or sanitized words is a form of hiding the truth under a bushel.
John
5:14 Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.
5:15 Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house.
5:16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.
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Re: Sinning Not
#11116
10/28/04 05:09 AM
10/28/04 05:09 AM
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quote:
The reason I use the language I do to describe rebirth is because that is the language the Bible and the SOP use to describe it.
No it's not. There's nowhere in the Bible that says we're morally sinless when we're born again. The word "morally" isn't in the Bible. Neither is the word "sinless". Neither is the word "defective". Neither is the word "character."
You're just using language which is less clear because you want to. You'd be better off using language that people understood, if you're goal is to communicate truth rather than stir up arguments which have no useful purpose.
You yourself say that being "morally sinless" is "one and the same" as "being in harmony with God and His law." So once again I ask, why not use the language which everyone will understand?
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Re: Sinning Not
#11117
10/28/04 04:08 PM
10/28/04 04:08 PM
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Yes, technically you're right. But the concepts are there. The reason I use the words moral and morally to describe born again believers is to distinquish it from intellectual and physical perfection. Believers can be morally sinless but not know about the Sabbath, which means they are not intellectually perfect. So, simply saying their life is in harmony with the law of God comes short of the reality. But they are, nonetheless, morally sinless, which is the basis of judgment and salvation.
AG 96
By beholding we become changed, morally assimilated to the One who is perfect in character. By receiving His imputed righteousness, through the transforming power of the Holy Spirit, we become like Him. The image of Christ is cherished, and it captivates the whole being. {AG 96.4}
HP 166
"Be ye therefore perfect" (Matt. 5:48) is God's word to us. And in order that we might obey this word, He sent His only-begotten Son to this earth to live in our behalf a perfect life. We have before us His example, and the strength by which He lived this life is at our disposal. In thought, word, and act Jesus was sinless. {HP 166.4}
OHC 264
Jesus has given to childhood and youth a perfect example. Study the Pattern, Christ Jesus, and copy it if you would be like Him--pure, holy, sinless, and undefiled. Study the childhood of Christ. He was the Son of God, yet the Bible record tells us He returned from Jerusalem and was subject unto His parents.... {OHC 264.2}
RC 37
But God, through Christ, has wrought out a way of escape, and He says to everyone, "Be ye therefore perfect." It is His purpose that man shall stand before Him upright and noble, and He will not be defeated. He sent His Son to this world to bear the penalty of sin, and to show man how to live a sinless life. {RC 37.2}
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Re: Sinning Not
#11118
10/28/04 09:28 PM
10/28/04 09:28 PM
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Why not just say they are in harmony with God? Or say they are in harmony with God's character?
That's what the issue is. God can't take people to heaven who hate Him. God can't take rebels to heaven. He can take anyone who wants to go. All they have to do is not resist Him.
There is not a soul who thinks that we are "intellectually perfect" so your reasons for using the phrase "morally sinless" are groundless. It's just confusing. I've been carrying on a thread with you for days, with over a hundred responses back and forth, and I still don't know what you mean, except that you say it means the same thing as being in harmony with God.
I know what being in harmony with God means. I know that's necessary and sufficient.
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Re: Sinning Not
#11119
10/29/04 04:49 AM
10/29/04 04:49 AM
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Perhaps the Bible writers said it best, and maybe we should let them have the last word on this thread:
Matthew
5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
Romans
6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
Galatians
5:16 [This] I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
Hebrews
13:20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,
13:21 Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom [be] glory for ever and ever. Amen.
1 Peter
4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
4:2 That he no longer should live the rest of [his] time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.
1 John
3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
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Re: Sinning Not
#11120
10/29/04 09:57 AM
10/29/04 09:57 AM
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Another Bible writer wrote the following:
1 Tim 4: 9This is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance 10(and for this we labor and strive), that we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, and especially of those who believe.
/Thomas
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Re: Sinning Not
#11121
10/30/04 05:12 AM
10/30/04 05:12 AM
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I like that Scripture very much. It brings out that in one sense Christ has saved all men, and in one sense He is the Savior of those who believe. "Never one, saint or sinner, partakes of his daily bread, but he is nourished by the body and blood of Christ."
This allows us to bring the Gospel to people, telling them the Good News, not of what God might do for them IF they do something first, but of what God has already done and is doing for them. By virture of His love and grace, and by virture of the gift of His Son, they live, and if they will respond to that grace which already gives them physical life, they will receive eternal life as well.
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Re: Sinning Not
#11122
10/30/04 07:57 PM
10/30/04 07:57 PM
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Mike,
I tend to agree with Tom that the choice of words may be the problem here, therefore, as it is done at the beginning of many by-laws that I have read and worked on, it probably would be good to define each of those type of words you use and then go on from there.
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Re: Sinning Not
#11123
10/30/04 08:55 PM
10/30/04 08:55 PM
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Maybe so. But I think it is obvious that most people on MSDAOL believe we are born again with our defective traits of character, and that they gradually die out, little by little, after years and years of sinning and repenting until we cease to sin. Some seem to think that only the 144,000 will achieve sinless perfection.
Others believe a defective trait of character isn't dead until we can no longer be tempted in that particular area. Some seem to feel every species of sin is a different and separate defect. For example, being tempted to be impatient with a slow driver is one defect, and being tempted to be impatient with a slow learner is a different defect.
This idea seems to suggest that impatience, or some other subtitle, must be crucified one defect at a time over the course of a lifetime, and that God is too kind to reveal, all at once, all of our defects under each category (i.e., impatience, pride, jealousy, anger, lust, etc). If each time we are tempted in a new way means we are discovering, for the first time, a new and unknown defective trait of character, then there would be no hope of ever overcoming as Jesus overcame - because there is no end to how many new ways Satan can tempt us.
I do not believe God labels every possible species of impatience separately. Impatience is impatience, no matter how many different ways we are tempted to be impatient, and when God gives us the victory over impatience it includes every old or new way Satan invents to tempt us to be impatient. The idea that we must overcome each species of impatience, one at a time, is one of the reasons why some people twist the victory verses, the perfection promises, to mean believers are born again morally defective.
I suspect that this difference is why some of us disagree on MSDAOL.
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Re: Sinning Not
#11124
10/31/04 02:12 AM
10/31/04 02:12 AM
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Why not just say that when a person is justified by faith, he is brought into harmony with God and His law? As long as he doesn't resist God's grace, God will continue to make him more and more like Jesus.
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Re: Sinning Not
#11125
10/31/04 04:50 AM
10/31/04 04:50 AM
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Because most people assume what you just said means we are born again legally sinless but morally defective, that becoming more and more like Jesus means becoming less and less defective. Which is far from the truth.
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Re: Sinning Not
#11126
10/31/04 04:16 AM
10/31/04 04:16 AM
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You said what I wrote is "one and the same thing" with what you wrote, so what you're saying cannot be true, unless they disagree with what I wrote. I think most will agree with what I wrote, which disproves your statement (unless I'm wrong, and most people don't agree with what I wrote).
What I wrote has the advantage of being understandable.
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Re: Sinning Not
#11127
11/01/04 04:40 AM
11/01/04 04:40 AM
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Yes, the potential exists that some people will understand your way of wording it, but I suspect others will assume your words imply something very different than what you mean. Let's see how the new thread does that you started. I hope it accomplishes what I've been praying for.
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Re: Sinning Not
#11128
11/02/04 06:41 PM
11/02/04 06:41 PM
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Wow! This topic has seen a lot of activity during my absense.
I haven't read all the new comments yet, but I want to start by thanking Tom Ewall, Mrs Sarah Moss, Charlene Van Hook, and Mike Lowe for your comments.
Shortly after that, however, we seem to have strayed off-topic. Remember in my original post, I asked that we not discuss things such as:
* known sins vs unknown sins
* whether it's possible to sin while abiding with Christ
* whether there's a such thing as unknown defective character traits
* etc.
While worthwhile and important topics, these have been discussed abundantly in countless other threads, and can and should be continued there. I don't want this thread to simply be a rehash of other similiar threads.
The topic of this particular thread is very specific. It is about the implications of the idea of living without sinning anymore, or put another way, living a life of obedience to God.
Perhaps some of you have heard the same or similiar objections I mentioned in my original post when discussing with others about walking in obedience to God; I would like to hear your comments. How have you answered those objections in your own discussions? Have you been told that if we ceased to sin, then we'd be sinless and have no need of a Saviour and we'd make Him a liar? If so, how did you respond?
Perhaps you believe that living a life of complete obedience to the Father, if it were possible, would make you sinless and deserving of heaven. Perhaps this is why you believe it impossible to live a life of obedience. If so, I would like to hear from you also. Why do you believe so?
Thank you all for your comments, and for staying on topic.
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Re: Sinning Not
#11129
11/02/04 07:39 PM
11/02/04 07:39 PM
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1. you are without sin?
Yes, of course. Only sinless people can go and sin no more.
2. you are perfect?
Yes, of course. At least, morally.
3. you deserve or have earned salvation?
No, no, no.
4. you do not need salvation?
No, no, no. |
| quote: Mike Lowe |
Thank you for your reply, Mike.
If a person lives the rest of his life without sinning and is therefore without sin as you say, then what does that person need salvation from? If you are without sin, then you don't need to be saved from it; just as if you are without cancer, you don't need treatment for cancer.
And how do you reconcile this belief with scripture, which says?
If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. |
|  1 John 1:8 |
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Re: Sinning Not
#11130
11/02/04 07:58 PM
11/02/04 07:58 PM
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Why is it that so many claim to be holy and sinless? ... ... I have never dared to claim any such a thing. ... ... You never have heard me say I am sinless. |
| quote: Tom Ewall |
Mike said, quote:
Jesus never claimed to holy and sinless - neither should we.
Well then, please explain why you've done exactly that: quote:
1. you are without sin?
Yes, of course. Only sinless people can go and sin no more.
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| quote: John |
Tom & John:
You misunderstand what Mike Lowe is saying and have missed the context. In Mike's comments which you have quoted, Mike is not claiming to be sinless.
If you would reread my original post, you'll see that Mike had copied or retyped text from my original post and was answering the questions I had posed concerning a hypothetical situation.
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Re: Sinning Not
#11131
11/02/04 08:46 PM
11/02/04 08:46 PM
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How can sins of ignorance misrepresent God's character? Sin is the stuff of choice and character. If the Spirit of God hasn't revealed our sins of ignorance, then we are not morally guilty of them, thus we cannot be guilty of misrepresenting the character of God. |
| quote: Mike Lowe |
Mike, you are confusing a thing with being guilty of a thing.
Your argument above is saying, "Something does not actually happen unless the person doing that something realizes/understands what they are doing."
Is it truly your position that sin cannot and does not misrepresent God's character unless the person knows that it does?
I have to agree with Tom, that any and all sin, whether known or unknown, misrepresents God's character. Being accountable or guilty of such is a different matter.
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Re: Sinning Not
#11132
11/02/04 08:56 PM
11/02/04 08:56 PM
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quote:
If a person lives the rest of his life without sinning and is therefore without sin as you say, then what does that person need salvation from?
From sinning again now or in the future. Salvation is an ongoing, continual experience, without it we cannot, Go and sin no more.
quote:
And how do you reconcile this belief with scripture, which says? "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." 1 John 1:8
It's refering to past sins, and all of us have committed sins in the past, but to say we have never sinned, like the Gnostics John was addressing in this passage (verses 6-10), then we are dead wrong. John speaks to post-conversion sins in 1 John 2:1, 2.
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Re: Sinning Not
#11133
11/02/04 10:57 PM
11/02/04 10:57 PM
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quote:
If a person lives the rest of his life without sinning and is therefore without sin as you say, then what does that person need salvation from?
From sinning again now or in the future. Salvation is an ongoing, continual experience, without it we cannot, Go and sin no more.
| quote: Mike Lowe | |
This does not make sense. If a person lives the rest of his life without sinning, how could he possibly need saving "from sinning again now or in the future"? Why would anyone need to be saved from something they do not do?
It's refering to past sins, and all of us have committed sins in the past, but to say we have never sinned, like the Gnostics John was addressing in this passage (verses 6-10), then we are dead wrong. John speaks to post-conversion sins in 1 John 2:1, 2. |
| quote: Mike Lowe |
Past sins ... but you said that such a person (who lives the rest of their life without further sin) is without sin. "Past sins" are still "sins", and if a person needs to be saved from past sins, how can they possibly be sinless?!
It seems to me that no one is without sin, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and if we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. Scripture is pretty clear to me.
Being forgiven of your sin, accepting Christ's sacrifice as payment for your sin, is another matter. Just as your traffic citations being paid (by you or by someone else) does not make you "without traffic violations", neither does living from this point forward without sinning and accepting Christ's payment for your past sins make you "sinless".
Your traffic citations remain on your record until they are removed. You may be thinking, "Duh!". But stay with me.
If, after receiving a ticket and paying the fine, you drive perfectly, without any violation whatsoever, whether caught or uncaught, whether known or unknown, are you without traffic violations? You, Mike, would seem to say, "Yes, of course." I see it differently. You would not be perfect or without citations. I could look at your driving record and see the "past citations". You would not be without citations/violations until they were removed from your record; which is usually 3 years I believe, depending upon which state you live in.
Mike, on Oct 22 you even said that our sins are not blotted out until the investigative judgement:
Will, the Bible sasys God will not forget our sins until after they are blotted out during the investigative judgment. In the meantime, though, He doesn't throw them in our face if we take our eyes off Jesus and blow it. Thank you, Jesus. |
| quote: Mike Lowe |
Mike, it would seem that you have a different definition of "being sinless". You somehow seem to be saying that you can have "past sins" and still be "sinless". This is self contradicting.
Somehow I think you are trying to say (and I could be wrong) that if you accept Christ as your Saviour, and by the power of the Spirit of God you do not sin anymore, then God sees you as sinless because you are wearing Christ's robe of Righteousness and have been justified by faith, though our own robe is as filthy rags.
However, that is not what I am referring to when I talked about being "without sin".
Reread my original post, and think about the reasons I gave for asking those questions. Give some thought to the objections I listed that some give to the idea of obeying God.
For instance, in my original post I had said that some will say that we cannot stop sinning because we would then be sinless and being sinless we would therefore be perfect and have no need of a Saviour, and then they'd quote 1 John 1:8,10, among other verses. I then posed the question, "if you no longer sin, does that mean that you are without sin and are perfect?", to which you replied, "Yes, of course"
Now, that being said, Mike, have you ever participated in a discussion where it was suggested that God expects us to obey Him, not to earn salvation but out of love for Him? If so, have you ever received a response that rejected obedience to God because if we could stop sinning, then we'd be without sin and make Him a liar (1 John 1:8,10). That if we could stop sinning, we would not need a Saviour?
If so, then how did you respond? Did you say as you did here and agree with them that yes, such a person would be perfect and without sin? Or did you respond differently?
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Re: Sinning Not
#11134
11/03/04 08:58 PM
11/03/04 08:58 PM
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Peter said: quote:
1 Peter
4:1, 2 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin; that he no longer should live the rest of [his] time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.
The way I understand this promise is that the Holy Spirit empowers us to live without sinning from now on, if we stay connected to Jesus. Which is also what Paul said in Romans: quote:
6:6, 7 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with [him], that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin.
Just because we cease sinning it does not mean we have never sinned in the past. Even when God blots out our record and memory of past sins, and remembers them no more, it doesn't change the fact we were once sinners saved by grace. But nor does our sinful past prevent us from experiencing the promises of God, which says we are morally sinless, here and now, so long as we are connected to Christ. What matters is what’s true now, not yesterday or tomorrow. And truth is: quote:
1 John 3:6-10
Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
I'm going to take some time to address the other part of your question.
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Re: Sinning Not
#11135
11/03/04 10:36 PM
11/03/04 10:36 PM
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quote:
Somehow I think you are trying to say (and I could be wrong) that if you accept Christ as your Saviour, and by the power of the Spirit of God you do not sin anymore, then God sees you as sinless because you are wearing Christ's robe of Righteousness and have been justified by faith, though our own robe is as filthy rags.
God looks at everybody as if they haven't sinned, from the standpoint that He does not count their sins against them, but graciously treats them as well as if they were His own Son. If God didn't do this, we would be dead, because we've all sinned, and the wages of sin is death.
I started a thread on justification where I discussed the difference between forensic justification (not a phrase used in the Bible, although the phrase "justification of life" is used) and justification by faith.
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Re: Sinning Not
#11136
11/05/04 04:46 AM
11/05/04 04:46 AM
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God looks at everybody as if they haven't sinned, from the standpoint that He does not count their sins against them, but graciously treats them as well as if they were His own Son. If God didn't do this, we would be dead, because we've all sinned, and the wages of sin is death. |
| quote: Tom Ewall |
Greetings, Tom. Thank you again for your comments.
While I agree with your statements on Oct 12, I don't think I can agree with this statement. If all of humanity is seen as sinless in His eyes, then all of humanity would be saved. While God does not instantly destroy the wicked, all are not justified nor seen as sinless in the eyes of God.
Throughout the Bible we are told how we can be the sons and daughters of God. Throughout the Bible, the distinction is made between the sons and daughters of God and the sons and daughters of men. (Gen 6:2,4; Deut 32:8; Hosea 1:10; Job 35:8; Ps 11:4;14:2;53:2; Is 51:12; Romans 8:14,19;9:26; Gal 4:6)
Nowhere does the Bible say that all of humanity is justified. Rather the Bible talks about justification by faith. Do all of humanity have faith in Christ? No! (Luke 18:14; Acts 13:39; Rom 3:24,28;10:10; Gal 2:17; James 2:24)
I agree, God does not immediately wipe out sinners; otherwise you and I would have been destroyed immediately. Actually, we may never have existed because Adam and Eve would have been immediately destroyed. But who would have tempted them? For then God would have immediately destroyed Lucifer in heaven.
The reason the wicked are not immediately destroyed is not because all are justified before God. No, instead God extends grace to both the wicked and the righteous, "for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust." (Matthew 5:45)
I agree that further discussion on justification should be continued in the other tread you mentioned.
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Re: Sinning Not
#11137
11/05/04 04:00 AM
11/05/04 04:00 AM
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DenBorg, regarding your question concerning whether or not we would still need a Saviour if we ceased sinning from henceforth. First of all, I firmly believe that 1 John 1:6-10 is talking about the Gnostic converts who thought they didn’t need to repent because, based on Greek philosophy, it is impossible to sin in the spirit, sinning is only possible in the flesh and, according their belief, they have always lived in the flesh, therefore they have never sinned, thus there is no need to repent (sorry about the long run on sentence).
Also, as part of his discourse, John affirms – “If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.” Verse 9. Obviously he didn’t mean for us to think Jesus cannot serve as our Saviour unless we continue to sin and repent. Jesus came to destroy the works of the Devil – not to guarantee their survival, as if His ministry and our salvation depend on it. 1 John 3:5, 8. Nor does ceasing from sin make God a liar, because that is what God has been promising to do for us all along.
Secondly, Jesus will always be our Saviour, even throughout eternity. His scars will ever remind us that we once sinners saved by grace. Just because we stop sinning, because the blood of the Lamb has set us free, it does not mean that Jesus ceases being our Saviour. Jesus is the Saviour of the world whether we sin or not. In fact, as Tom is accustomed to saying – “Before there was a sinner, there was a Saviour.” Jesus is “the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.” Rev 13:8.
If this isn't anything close to what you were expecting, please let me know. Thanx.
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Re: Sinning Not
#11138
11/05/04 04:24 AM
11/05/04 04:24 AM
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What I said, which isn't me but quoting from EGW, is "as soon as sin there was a Savior."
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