No, you did dispute this for awhile. Then you stopped. You have also disputed that Satan sinned, even though we are told that Satan was given the chance to "confess his sin" before being banished from heaven, and that he would have been restored to his position had he done so. I've never understood this.

Regarding the rest of the post, it's predicated on a belief which Lucifer's case disproves, which was my point in bring up Lucifer. Rather than change your mind, however, you at first argued that "pardon" did not mean what it normally meant, and wanted a statement which explicitly said that Satan sinned. I pointed out that wouldn't do any good, that you would just say that "sin" didn't mean what it ordinarily meant, and this is exactly what happened. You were presented with a statement which said that Satan was given the opportunity to "confess his sin," but you responded that "sin" did not mean what it ordinarily means.

So I don't see any future in this discussion. If you can simply say that words don't mean what they ordinarily mean when they disagree with the position you're holding, how can one go on from there?

You seem to be implying mercy and justice are one and same thing. But isn't it true that mercy is mercy only because justice is justice? Were it not for justice mercy would cease to be mercy - it would simply be.

You say it's "firelight." The SOP doesn't say this. The SOP says that the glory of God is His character. It says, "the glory of Him who is love" will destroy them. "Love" has to do with character, not with "firelight."

I'm not simply implying that it is sin that causes sinners to suffer and die, I've been saying this all along. Death is the inevitable result of sin, which is simply another way of saying that sin causes death. James says this by saying that "sin, when it is finished, brings forth death."



"It took the cross to make this clear."

Justice is administered by way of mercy and compassion. If they were the same thing, Zechariah would have said that justice is administered by justice, which wouldn't make much sense.

If you'll look at what I wrote, I said that justice in Scripture is most often restorative. This is easily verified, MM, by simply looking at Scripture.

Yes, and I have you to thank for that. I have learned a lot by studying with you. I am deeply indebted to you. Thank you.

Now I believe God did indeed offer to pardon Lucifer. Although Lucifer was not yet guilty of open sin and rebellion his actions, nevertheless, required pardon should he consent to the terms of his reinstatement. Not until he was fully convinced that to pursue his course further it would constitute a sin and then made the decision to continue at all cost did he become guilty of sin - which is also when God stopped offering to pardon him. Given his exalted state and sinless condition his first sin was unpardonable. Not that God was stubbornly unwilling to pardon him. No way!!! But he was incapable of repenting and being restored to righteousness.

Ellen says it is the "light" of the glory of God that causes sinners to suffer and die. She also says it is a consuming "fire". Hence - the firelight of God's glory.


It made what clear? That being cool with God commanding them to punish and destroy sinners is right and righteous?

It is not clear that Zechariah intended to say justice is the execution of mercy and compassion. But it is clear that Ellen saw mercy and justice as opposites in tension. Listen:

Justice and Mercy stood apart, in opposition to each other, separated by a wide gulf. The Lord our Redeemer clothed His divinity with humanity, and wrought out in behalf of man a character that was without spot or blemish. He planted His cross midway between heaven and earth, and made it the object of attraction which reached both ways, drawing both Justice and Mercy across the gulf. Justice moved from its exalted throne, and with all the armies of heaven approached the cross. There it saw One equal with God bearing the penalty for all injustice and sin. With perfect satisfaction Justice bowed in reverence at the cross, saying, It is enough (MS 94, 1899). {7BC 936.1}

Thank you. I've appreciated our discussions as well.



If he hadn't sinned, he wouldn't have been offered pardon. Pardon is for sin.



Yes, this is what you keep saying. But it doesn't make sense. Just look at what you're saying!

A.As long as Satan didn't need pardon, God kept offering it to him, over and over again.
B.As soon as Satan did need it, God stopped offering it to him.

Certainly doesn't speak well of God.



This is clearly wrong.



He was given the opportunity to "confess his sin," so obviously his first sin could not have been unpardonable.



I agree with this.

That's cute, but it doesn't work. First of all, she says that the light of the glory of God, *which gives life to the righteous*, will slay the wicked. (By the way, this is the same idea as Isaiah, I think chapter 33, which speaks of the everlasting burnings. "Who can dwell with the everlasting burnings? The righteous." Isa. 33:14, 15 I think.) It doesn't make sense to say that "firelight" gives life to the righteous. However, that the revelation of the character of God is spiritual truth. Jesus spoke of this in John 17, in his prayer.

The "light of the glory of God" means "the revelation of God's character." The very next sentence bears this out, which speaks of Christ as "the revealer of God's character." Really, I can't imagine what more proof one would desire than that!

So we've got 4 things at least to consider:

1.The same thing which gives life to the righteous will slay the wicked (firelight doesn't give life to the righteous).
2.Isaiah 33 brings out the same thought. (Who can dwell with the everlasting burnings? The righteous).
3.John 17 brings out that the revelation of God's character gives life.
4.The very next sentence makes clear that "the light of the glory of God" = "the revelation of God's character."



It made clear the death is the inevitable result of sin.



Zechariah said that justice is administered by mercy and compassion. Actually, he quoted God, who said that. And we see this truth revealed in Jesus' life.

Again, if you simply look at how the word "justice" is used in Scripture, you will see that a majority of the time it is used in the sense of restorative justice. The idea is to set things right. Ellen White brings out this idea here:



The "whole purpose" of Christ's mission was to set men right by revealing God's character. A beautiful thought, isn't it?