Yes, I believe He literally dwells within those who are abiding in Jesus.

There is no house set up in our hearts in which Jesus lives. Jesus is in heaven. The Holy Spirit doesn't "live" in our hearts, like we live in a house. This is a metaphor, designed to convey intimacy. God literally has a relationship with us. He literally communicates with us through the Holy Spirit.

i think that is where a true understanding of the personality of God would come in.

since God is a literal physical Being how could/would He personally dwell in each of us?

Great topic Teresa!

A metaphor? Come on Tom. Is the born again experience a metaphor too?

You came from an Evangelical background, and don't believe in the indwelling of the Spirit of Christ?
There must be something that made you change your mind. If it's not too personal, can you tell us?

"Born again" is a metaphor. Trying to understand it literally was the problem Nicodemus had (The experience isn't a metaphor, however).



I believe in it. I understand it to mean the communion we have with the Spirit by our minds. What do you understand it to mean?



Change my mind about what? There are some Evangelical which believe that the Spirit communes with our spirit (akin to our immortal soul) in some mystical way. Is this what you have in mind?

The texts of Scripture go beyond ideas of communication or communion. They convey the idea of an abiding presence. God not only communicated His will to Israel, He dwelt among them. There was a visible presence which was a symbol of His literal presence in the heart of the believer. Emmanual, one of the prominant names of Christ, is given as an assurance of His literal presence through the Holy Spirit in the soul's temple.

It is related to the born again experience and its a mystery. We don't know exactly how it works. We know we sence God near us with our brains, but our brains are only a physical organ. We tend to think our minds and brains are about the same but the word mind in English is more synonimous with the conscious thought process. God is more intimate than that. We are all individuals and His Spirit connects in unique ways with each individual on all levels, conscious, subconscious, emotional and spiritual.

I just want to add that this unique connection is there regardless of whether we're awake or sleeping. If God is in us, it's an ongoing, prevading influence over our emotions, our thoughts and our subconscious beings. It's an indwelling presence and communion of the Spirit with our spirit.

Which we only know by through our minds.



Surely you don't mean in the muscle? Or the chest area? The "heart" represents the mind, where a person does his deepest and innermost thinking.



Which is in the mind again, right? For example, when we are told to love the Lord with all our soul, doesn't that mean with all of our being? That is, the entirety of our will, our ability to perceive God and respond to Him.



The mind encompasses all these things; that is, conscious, subconscious (i.e. "subconscious mind"). What is spirituality if not an activity of the mind?

As SDA's we don't believe in a soul or spirit which has a presence in our being independent of the mind. Once our mind is gone, we have no more ability to have communion with God. Ellen White speaks of this, in pointing out the importance of taking care of our health.

I'm not sure how well I've understood your thoughts Mark, so I may be "scratching where it doesn't itch" in some of my comments.

Awaiting your clarification,

Tom

we know that the bible did not mean adam and eve, and even less so subsequent married couples, were literally to become one flesh. we understand that to mean that they were to become so close to each other that they would be as if one flesh.



we know that doesnt mean they were one person, or the same person. but so close and connected it was as if they were the same person. and Gods intent for us:




and so these verses:
Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you....







we know that we do not physically dwell in God, and so we should know that neither the HS, Christ, nor God literally dwells in us. but it says if we love one another then we know that God-the Father-"dwells" in us.

it is the closeness we can have that the scriptures are trying to convey to us. one with another but only as we have that oneness with God.

guess we better get busy. well, at least i better. i know im seriously lacking here.........

Adventist teaching on the nature of man is unscriptural in some respects. The scriptures describe man as a spirit being housed in a physical body. That reality is as much true as our physical being, and because we're spirit beings we can be one in spirit with God. It is the spiritual nature that is born again and recieves the spirit of Christ.

John was 'in the spirit' when he was given the revelation of Christ. The apostles were 'in the spirit'. The Holy Spirit bears witness with our spirit that we're the children of God.

I agree fully with Mark and I had commented about this in the Trinity- How does our beliefs on this change our thinking? thread. What is stated in the 27 doctrine belief is contrary to scriptures.

1. It is true that Man has his own spirit that doesn't leaves his body. But this is different and seperate from the spirit of God. However, both work together.

2. Man needs the "breath" of God to live, and the Bible makes it clear that the breath(spirit) goes back to God when he dies. This "breath" of God is given to all that lives by his grace. Just because you are walking around doesn't mean you are alive though. It just means that God is keeping your form continually together and keeps all in motion while you may be wicked and cursing his name. The force maintaining all particles(protons, neutrons, quartz, and etc) together is contrary to the law of entropy. This prove there's someone that supply this force constantly and we all know that's Jesus as it is written that "He holds all things together". There's many mysterys in the physsiology of our body which again the only conclusion comes that God keeps all processes in your body in harmony.

3. The born again experience, is another dimension where we are submitting our will to his. By Faith we have eternal life.

4. God only is eternal, immortal and is Life. We are not, we can have immortality through the gift of the continual in-dwelling Spirit of God.

5. I believe that the "breath of life" is breathed via his omni-presence, the Holy Spirit. However, from reading in the 27 Doctrines, it is saying the "breath of life" is simply the life principle. What ????

To me they're saying, the "breath of life" was given only to Adam to animate his lifeless body, that it is not an on-going process? Well, this is new to me. I always understood this as an on-going process. And this statement is contrary to what the Bible teach, physic, and physiology.

I think this is what I was thinking of. Took awhile to find it:



The underlined portion is what I was most interested in.

I think I'm on the same page as teresa on this. The Lord has used metaphors to let us know how close He desires to be with us. This closeness is not a physical closeness, but a closeness based on love and common purposes.

God communicates with us through our brains, not an ethereal spirit disconnected from us physically.

Tom, for sure the brain is the control center. This is where He introduces His thoughs, His mind, His feelings, and etc... in us. It is the most effective way of opperating. It is never by force thought, and as we surrender our will, and accept His will, then .... Action. read COL 98 & 99.

However, who is holding your body together? Some non personal force with no brain? Absolutly not. Don't you realize that the Holy Spirit is continually holding your body together. Each particle is held together? Don't you realize that your body's processes is maintain by God?

Now, does your metaphor support the incarnation? When Jesus walk on this earth, the indwelling spirit was not in Him? He walk by the power of his brain in believing in the promises of Scriptures? That's how He got victory, throught the power of His brain, and depending on his brain knowledge of the love of God? not through the Father?


What's the "POWER to become sons of God " this verse is talking about? v. 13 says very clearly, the power is to be born of God. As Jesus was the incarnation of God in flesh, so are we which is called "the Mystery of God", God spirit is to incarnate in our sinful flesh. That's the only way to be born again. This is our only hope for salvation.

What you are proposing doesn't make sence to me and offer no hope for my salvation. Also, it is not holding scripture together as a whole.

At least we agree with each other that what the other is saying makes no sense. I've got no clue what you're trying to say.

Regarding how Jesus Christ overcame, if you're asking me if it involved His brain, if that's what I'm saying, yes, that's what I believe. Jesus Christ overcame by faith, which involved His making decisions, (such as the decision to exercise faith) and that involved His brain. Our overcoming also involves are brains. Without our brains, we have no way to communicate with God.

Regarding God's holding our bodies together, yet, I believe this:



I've quoted this many times. It's important that we understand God's role in holding nature together, as well as our own bodies.

However, I don't see that this has anything to do with the indwelling of the Spirit. If you are going to say that the Spirit indwells us because He holds our bodies together, then, by the same logic, He indwells animals, since He holds their bodies together as well, and He indwells inanimate objects, like planets, since He keeps them together too.



I agree with this as well, which is why Christ had to come in flesh like ours, to make this reality a possibility for us.

Repeating something I said earlier:



To me, this last sentence could just as well have said, "This is what it means to have the mind of Christ", or "this is what it means to have the Spirit's indwelling."

These are all metaphors. It is not literally true that we are clothed with a garment of righteousness. This is a metaphor. However, what was written just before is literally true:

"When we submit ourselves to Christ, the heart is united with His heart, the will is merged in His will, the mind becomes one with His mind, the thoughts are brought into captivity to Him; we live His life."

Yes, I believe God literally dwells in believers who are abiding in Jesus. God is omnipresent. I do not understand how He literally dwells in us but I believe it just the same.

does that mean He is in the tree and plant?

Here's this idea again. If you don't understand it, why do you believe it? Why wouldn't another possibility, which you could understand, be better? For example, that a metaphor is involved.

I'm seeing this idea in many contexts. It might not be a bad idea to discuss, in general terms, the concept of how inspired statements should be understood. Where you and are agreeing, again and again, is that you read certain things literally, which even you don't think make sense. The approach I take, when I see that a literal interpretation doesn't make sense, is to consider the possibility that perhaps the inspired statement shouldn't be taken literally. Rather than doing this, you seem to prefer to hold to the idea that the thing is literal, even though it doesn't make sense to you.

So there's a fundamental difference, in general, in regards to how we approach inspired statements. I'm trying to look for general principles which apply across the board, and, on the basis of those statements, understand inspired statements. As opposed to this, you prefer to look at things on a case by case basis, where principles play a secondary role at best.

Now I suppose some of the difference may just have to do with a difference in personality types and perception (i.e., seeing the forest vs. seeing the trees), but I think there are other factors involved as well.

I doubt it. Vegetation and animals do not have a soul. I suspect this makes a difference. I don't have to be a pantheist to be believe God literally dwells within me. I'm not saying this is what you are implying.

Tom, I agree there are principles we must follow as we read the Word of God. I take things literally unless it is absurd to do so, or if it contradicts something plainly revealed in the Word. I see nothing absurd or contradictory about believing God literally dwells in us. Do you?

Yes. I think the meaning is clearly dealing with the intimate communication God has with us, mind to mind. Any other meaning would to me be absurd.

i was addressing your use of omnipresent. is there a bible verse that says animals do not have a "soul"?

Thank you, Tom, for the candid response to my question. I have no doubt what you believe about it. I appreciate the clarity.

Teresaq, yes, God is omnipresent. I take this literally. That is, I believe He is everywhere at the same time. In the New Earth, I imagine myself sitting on His lap while at the same time He is everywhere.

I am equating "soul" with moral consciousness, the ability to reason and choose. Animals and humans are different in this way. The following insights seem to suggest as much.

The training of children must be conducted on a different principle from that which governs the training of irrational animals. The brute has only to be accustomed to submit to its master; but the child must be taught to control himself. The will must be trained to obey the dictates of reason and conscience. A child may be so disciplined as to have, like the beast, no will of its own, his individuality being lost in that of his teacher. {FE 57.2}

He was placed, as God's representative, over the lower orders of being. They cannot understand or acknowledge the sovereignty of God, yet they were made capable of loving and serving man. {PP 45.1}

The education of children, at home or at school, should not be like the training of dumb animals; for children have an intelligent will, which should be directed to control all their powers. Dumb animals need to be trained, for they have not reason and intellect. But the human mind must be taught self-control. It must be educated to rule the human being, while animals are controlled by a master and are trained to be submissive to him. The master is mind, judgment, and will for his beast. A child may be so trained as to have, like the beast, no will of his own. Even his individuality may be merged in the one who superintends his training; his will, to all intents and purposes, is subject to the will of the teacher. {3T 132.1}

i was addressing your use of omnipresent. is there a bible verse that says animals do not have a "soul"? [/quote]



if God is able to literally be in us because He is omnipresent then why couldnt He also be, literally, in everything else?
wouldnt it make sense that we view His indwelling as we do
a husband and wife becoming one flesh? i mean, it seems to me that the other view may keep us from seeing the real import, what we need to do to make that oneness a reality.......

another verse:
Joh 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
we know that we cannot physically, or literally, abide in Jesus. so why should we believe that He literally, or physically, abides in us?



but is that the biblical definition? isnt the biblical definition "breath of life" which even the animals have?

perhaps another topic on mind, soul, spirit?

You said the same thing a little while ago, which was the first time I had heard this idea. I think it's right on. A husband and wife are not literally one flesh, but it's a wonderful metaphor. We know what it means. Similarly God "dwells is us" conveys a thought of great intimacy, based on communication and a sharing of thoughts/ideas/aspirations.

I suppose being everywhere and being in something is two different realities for God. I don't know. Perhaps God can be in us in the same way He was in Jesus while He sojourned here in the flesh?


Comparing two humans becoming one flesh in marriage with God dwelling in a human seems awkward to me. God is so different than a husband or wife that it is difficult for me to compare the two different realities named above.


Because the Holy Spirit is God and is very much different than humans. He has abilities we cannot even dream of.


Yes, the term "living soul" is the combination of body and breath and being. And, yes, animals are also a combination of these elements. However, animals and humans are different in significant ways. I assume you agree. The SOP quotes I posted above touches on ways they are different. I suspect these differences account for why God can literally dwell in humans and not in animals. I don't know.

Why are you so sure God does not literally dwell in us? I do not dispute what you wrote, for God does indeed dwell in us in the way you described, but I'm curious why you dispute what I wrote.

Here are some ways the Bible talks about it:

John
14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
14:11 Believe me that I [am] in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

Romans
8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

1 Corinthians
3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and [that] the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which [temple] ye are.

2 Timothy
1:14 That good thing which was committed unto thee keep by the Holy Ghost which dwelleth in us.

1 John
3:24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

1 John
4:12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.
4:13 Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.
4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son [to be] the Saviour of the world.
4:15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.
4:16 And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.

From the SOP:



I'm sure if you went through each of the other Scriptures you posted, you would find similar comments.

Let's consider the case of Christ. Do you think it's literally true that Christ dwells in our hearts?

Tom, as I have already said, I believe the Holy Spirit possesses the ability to literally dwell in us in a way that only God can. Exactly how he does it is not clear to me. And, please bear in mind, I also believe as you do that God dwells in us through His word.

We've seen from the EGW quote that the only way God communicates with us involves the mind, or what I think she calls "brain nerves." So the "dwelling" you have in mind, must not involve communication, being something we cannot perceive. I see no point in that. These thoughts seem rather pantheistic to me, more along the lines of Eastern religions than Christianity.

Tom, you can disagree with me without insulting me. Just because I believe the Holy Spirit has the ability to literally dwell in us does not make me a pantheist.

The idea that God can somehow dwell in us without involving our minds seems pantheistic to me. That's what I'm saying. How would this "indwelling" be different than what God would do with an animal, a tree, or even a rock? (I'm not intending this as any sort of insult. Please don't take it as such. I'm simply addressing the idea expressed.)

The difference has to with free moral agency. We are conscious beings capable of rendering or withholding love and obedience. God dwells in us in a way that enables us to experience the miracle of love and obedience. The thing that makes it possible and miraculous is the indwelling of God.

How is anything that God does here not something which relates to activity of the mind? The aspects you are bringing up, that are different between humans and the other things I mentioned, all involve activities of the mind.

Tom, the idea you are arguing seems to divorce the miraculous aspect that enables us to resist the unholy clamorings of our fallen flesh and to imitate the lovely character of Christ.

Why do you think this?

You seem to be saying that there is nothing miraculous about sinners being able to cease sinning and begin imitating Jesus holiness. Your explanations seem to imply learning the truth is what enables them to do it, that knowledge is the source of their victory.

I didn't ask you to repeat what you said, but to explain why you think what you said is the case. I don't understand why you would think the fact that God's dwelling with us involves our minds would imply that God is not doing something miraculous. Can you explain this?