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Re: Lesson #6 - Sin [Re: Daryl] #112760
05/07/09 07:13 PM
05/07/09 07:13 PM
teresaq  Offline
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Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,984
CA, USA
maybe there is a right doctrine and a wrong "original sin" doctrine.

on another site i got into it some with a catholic who was giving the definition of original sin. which for me is a contradiction. satan had "original sin", not us. sin originated with satan and we became "infected" with it by adam and eve choosing the fruit.

Quote:
In what consisted the strength of the assault made upon Adam, which caused his fall? It was not his indwelling sin; for God made Adam after His own character, pure and upright. There were no corrupt principles in the first Adam, no corrupt propensities or tendencies to evil. Adam was as faultless as the angels before God's throne. These things are inexplainable, but many things which now we cannot understand will be made plain when we shall see as we are seen, and know as we are known. {16MR 86.2}
Jesus came to the world as a human being, that He might become acquainted with human beings, and come close to them in their need. He was born a babe in Bethlehem. He grew up as other children grow. And from youth to manhood, during the whole of His earthly life, He was assailed by Satan's fiercest temptations. {BEcho, September 3, 1900 par. 9}



Quote:
Adam was tempted by the enemy, and he fell. It was not indwelling sin which caused him to yield; for God made him pure and upright, in His own image. He was as faultless as the angels before the throne. There were in him no corrupt principles, no tendencies to evil. But when Christ came to meet the temptations of Satan, He bore "the likeness of sinful flesh." In the wilderness, weakened physically by a fast of forty days, He met the adversary. His dignity was questioned, His authority disputed, His allegiance to His Father assailed by the fallen foe. {BEcho, September 3, 1900 par. 10}


i throw these out for consideration.


Psa 64:5 ...an evil matter: they commune of laying snares privily; they say, Who shall see them?

Psa 7:14 Behold, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood. 15 He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made. 16 His mischief (and his violent dealing) shall return upon his own head.

Psa 7:17 I will praise the LORD according to his righteousness: and will sing praise to the name of the LORD most high.
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Re: Lesson #6 - Sin [Re: teresaq] #112763
05/07/09 07:23 PM
05/07/09 07:23 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Quote:
Satan had "original sin", not us. Sin originated with Satan and we became "infected" with it by Adam and Eve choosing the fruit.


This is a typical Adventist idea. Ellen White writes of how sin was passed by the influence of mind upon mind. So sin is not passed by way of the flesh, but by way of the mind (the same idea as you are expressing in terms of eating the fruit).

However, in this context "original sin" is more of a pun than anything else.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Lesson #6 - Sin [Re: Tom] #112767
05/07/09 08:30 PM
05/07/09 08:30 PM
teresaq  Offline
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Posts: 1,984
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Originally Posted By: Tom
Quote:
Satan had "original sin", not us. Sin originated with Satan and we became "infected" with it by Adam and Eve choosing the fruit.


This is a typical Adventist idea. Ellen White writes of how sin was passed by the influence of mind upon mind. So sin is not passed by way of the flesh, but by way of the mind (the same idea as you are expressing in terms of eating the fruit).

However, in this context "original sin" is more of a pun than anything else.


that was an agreement? "This is a typical Adventist idea." i dont know what this means. what i meant is that if we are going to use "original sin" then that is what it would mean to me, if i didnt make it clear. that is the only sense that i could see it to be true. any other use seems to me to be a contradiction in terms.


Psa 64:5 ...an evil matter: they commune of laying snares privily; they say, Who shall see them?

Psa 7:14 Behold, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood. 15 He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made. 16 His mischief (and his violent dealing) shall return upon his own head.

Psa 7:17 I will praise the LORD according to his righteousness: and will sing praise to the name of the LORD most high.
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Re: Lesson #6 - Sin [Re: teresaq] #112770
05/07/09 10:08 PM
05/07/09 10:08 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
By "typical Adventist idea," I mean something which has typically be said by Adventists for a long time.

Regarding what you think makes sense regarding the meaning of "original sin," that's what makes sense to me to, although this isn't how the phrase has been used theologically.

The Catholic version of Original Sin is that Mary was immaculately conceived so that Christ could be born without sin, meaning that Mary had a sinless nature. There's a fancy term for it, something like "Desoliderization," (but that's not quite right, since I couldn't find any hits for it in Google)

Quote:
The most Blessed Virgin Mary was, from the first moment of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege of almighty God and by virtue of the merits of Jesus Christ, Savior of the human race, preserved immune from all stain of original sin.(Pope Pius IX 1854)


In the Protestant version, it is Christ who was immaculately conceived, "preserved immune from all stain of original sin." The teachings of Jones and Waggoner (and later Prescott) flew in the face of this idea.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Lesson #6 - Sin [Re: Tom] #112772
05/07/09 11:34 PM
05/07/09 11:34 PM
teresaq  Offline
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Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,984
CA, USA
Originally Posted By: Tom
By "typical Adventist idea," I mean something which has typically be said by Adventists for a long time.

Regarding what you think makes sense regarding the meaning of "original sin," that's what makes sense to me to, although this isn't how the phrase has been used theologically.



glad to see when we can be in agreement, my brother!! smile

Quote:
The Catholic version of Original Sin is that Mary was immaculately conceived so that Christ could be born without sin, meaning that Mary had a sinless nature. There's a fancy term for it, something like "Desoliderization," (but that's not quite right, since I couldn't find any hits for it in Google)


Quote:
The most Blessed Virgin Mary was, from the first moment of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege of almighty God and by virtue of the merits of Jesus Christ, Savior of the human race, preserved immune from all stain of original sin.(Pope Pius IX 1854)


yes, i have a little bit of understanding of the immaculate conception. it even goes back to marys mother, doesnt it? i came across that somewhere, but dont remember where. maybe one of my encyclopedia readings.

Quote:
In the Protestant version, it is Christ who was immaculately conceived, "preserved immune from all stain of original sin." The teachings of Jones and Waggoner (and later Prescott) flew in the face of this idea.


aaaah,i believe im getting a little more understanding for your position. i think that issue is very important. do you remember if it has been brought up before in these discussions?i vaguely remember coming across that somewhere but will not swear to it.

"betcha" smile some apologists dont know that. knowing what they were against, just like the pioneers and the trinity doctrine, really makes a difference.


Psa 64:5 ...an evil matter: they commune of laying snares privily; they say, Who shall see them?

Psa 7:14 Behold, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood. 15 He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made. 16 His mischief (and his violent dealing) shall return upon his own head.

Psa 7:17 I will praise the LORD according to his righteousness: and will sing praise to the name of the LORD most high.
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Re: Lesson #6 - Sin [Re: Daryl] #112775
05/08/09 12:54 AM
05/08/09 12:54 AM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Quote:
Are you saying that Ellen White is basically saying that every baby born was born in sin?

Christ excepted.

"Seth was a worthy character, and was to take the place of Abel in right-doing. Yet he was a son of Adam, like sinful Cain, and inherited from the nature of Adam no more natural goodness than did Cain. He was born in sin, but by the grace of God, in receiving the faithful instruction of his father Adam, he honored the Lord in doing his will." {ST, February 20, 1879 par. 1}

"Because of sin, his [Adam's] posterity was born with inherent propensities of disobedience. But Jesus Christ was the only begotten Son of God. He took upon Himself human nature, and was tempted in all points as human nature is tempted. He could have sinned; He could have fallen, but not for one moment was there in Him an evil propensity." {13MR 18.1}

The question is, Do babies need a Savior? If so, why?

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Re: Lesson #6 - Sin [Re: Rosangela] #112778
05/08/09 02:38 AM
05/08/09 02:38 AM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Babies need a Savior because their salvation is dependent upon the faith of their parents, and without a Savior their parents could have no faith.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Lesson #6 - Sin [Re: Tom] #112779
05/08/09 02:41 AM
05/08/09 02:41 AM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Quote:
Aaaah,I believe im getting a little more understanding for your position. I think that issue is very important. Do you remember if it has been brought up before in these discussions? I vaguely remember coming across that somewhere but will not swear to it.


I'm also glad we agree on the "original sin" idea you expressed. I'm not sure what you're asking here. What is the "it" you're referring to? (that you're wondering if it's been brought up before)


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Reply Quote
Re: Lesson #6 - Sin [Re: Tom] #112781
05/08/09 03:09 AM
05/08/09 03:09 AM
asygo  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2023

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,583
California, USA
Originally Posted By: Tom
Babies need a Savior because their salvation is dependent upon the faith of their parents, and without a Savior their parents could have no faith.

What would they need salvation for, if they are guiltless as you believe?

I think babies need a Saviour. But then, I believe babies are born lost. Hence, they need salvation.

You seem to be saying that babies need a Saviour because their parents need a Saviour. If "need a Savior" = "lost" then that becomes "babies are lost because their parents are lost." Sounds like Original Sin.


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
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Re: Lesson #6 - Sin [Re: Tom] #112782
05/08/09 03:11 AM
05/08/09 03:11 AM
asygo  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2023

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,583
California, USA
Originally Posted By: Tom
If Original Sin meant that we all die because Adam sinned, then everyone would agree with it, as, to the best of my knowledge, there isn't any disagreement on this point. The disagreement comes over whether the guilt of Adam is passed genetically from generation to generation.

When you say "all die" are you speaking of eternal death, or just physical death? IOW, did Adam's sin entail eternal death or temporal death?


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
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