In response to the quote from Sabbath Afternoon, I am reminded how so many people picture heaven as a person sitting on a cloud playing a harp.

They even show TV ads showing angels with wings standing on a cloud eating the item they are advertising.

John 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if [it were] not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.


This is the hope that uplifts the Christian.
In spite of sorrow, death of loved ones, and all the other trials, we don't mourn as others do BECAUSE WE HAVE THIS HOPE!

Personally, I don't see how people can cope without such a hope. I guess many can't that's why there is so much drug and alchol abuse and suicides -- they've lost hope.

This hope also gives purpose to this life!
It enriches our lives here.
There is a "peace, joy, love and mission" that finds it's motive in the glorious promises of our wonderful Savior, Who has a place prepared for us and wants us to be with Him.

I think it is the wrong picture of heaven and when people get there and who gets to go there that is the root of the problem as stated below from Sunday's section:

In order to have a more correct picture of heaven, one needs to have a more correct picture of death.

The above picture of death is a lot better than some sort of energy being beamed off to an energy type of heaven, where nothing is seen as being of any physical type structure there in this type of wrong understanding about death.

Understanding the truth about death involves realizing that Jesus was separated from us while He lay in the tomb. Such separation makes "heaven" impossible - even if we were in heaven while Jesus was laying a tomb.

I think the wrong picture of death as meaning that the person is immediately in heaven at death is more a comfort thing than anything else.

Who likes to picture their loved one as rotting in the grave and not immediately be alive in some spirit form in heaven?

The Bible pictures death as a sleep.

Psalms 13:3 NKJV 3 Consider and hear me, O LORD my God; Enlighten my eyes, Lest I sleep the sleep of death;

John 11:11 Our friend Lazarus sleeps; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep. 11:12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well... 11:14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.

1 Corinthians 15:51 NKJV 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed--



Death is called "a sleep" because everyone will be awakened out of it --
The saved in the first resurrection when Jesus comes to take His faithful to His Father's house to be with Him.
The lost will be awakened in the second resurrection after the 1000 years.

There is also the following:

Eccl. 9:5 For the living know that they shall die; but the dead do not know anything, nor do they have any more a reward; for their memory is forgotten.

It says that the dead know not anything, which makes sense as we are also not aware of anything while we are in a deep night's sleep.

Why is there no "sea" or "ocean" in the new world? I love the ocean and the fishes, a pity if they no longer exist. Why is it not recreated? Is god afraid that his children might be drown and die?? I couldn't understand the reasoning of the author.

In His love

from what ive read it seems like a "punishment" for all the people who have drowned in the oceans and seas.

i think there will still be rivers and streams and im sure they will be full of marine life for us to enjoy.

Folks, this is yet another example of improper interpretation. Just like the "dogs" that won't be in heaven, according to Revelation, do not represent literal animals, the "sea" may not represent literal water.

We try to say that Revelation is a symbolic book, while at the same time claiming the symbols are literal. Why is that?

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

since the new heaven and new earth isnt symbolic its rather hard to think that the sea would be symbolic, i would think, but here is what egw said:

The sea divides friends. It is a barrier between us and those whom we love. Our associations are broken up by the broad, fathomless ocean. In the new earth there will be no more sea, and there shall pass there "no galley with oars." In the past many who have loved and served God have been bound by chains to their seats in galleys, compelled to serve the purpose of cruel, hardhearted men. The Lord has looked upon their suffering in sympathy and compassion. Thank God, in the earth made new there will be no fierce torrents, no engulfing ocean, no restless, murmuring waves (MS 33, 1911).

That's a good statement, Teresa. I agree with it, but do not see it in conflict with my earlier statement. First of all, "there was no more sea" must be considered in context, unless you don't mind contradictions like this:



Secondly, the "sea" is spoken of in other places in Revelation, and it is clearly a symbol.


Unless we are in Narnia, that is not a literal sea.

Again, there is symbolism in the following:

Does the devil tempt whales and dolphins? or do people inhabit the sea?


Who is the "beast" here?


Does that beast rise out of a literal "sea"?

As I understand, the "sea" represents something very important, and that would become even more important at the end of time. Nor do I see Mrs. White in contradiction with the symbolism. However, I do suppose that there will not be so much of the new earth covered in water as we have now.

Consider this popular term: "sea change." What does it mean? What do "trees," "beasts," and "mountains" represent in Revelation and in other prophecies? Literal trees and beasts?

I believe the "sea" represents commerce.



Heaven will not have commerce as we have it here. Nor will it have slave trade (galleys), nor will the waves of the economy's ups and downs cause us to fret and fear. Money will not divide friends and brethren in heaven. There will be no more "sea."

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

I agree with teresaq in that one part can't be literal and the other symbolic, therefore, if the "no more sea" is to be considered symbolic, then "a new heaven and a new earth" would also need to be considered symbolic.

As far as "no more sea" goes, the SDA Bible Commentary says,

And what prevents the heaven and earth from being symbolic?

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

ok, ill bite.

The "sea" was a symbol for evil. There are many examples of this in Scripture. For example, crossing the Red Sea, walking on water, standing on the sea of glass, the laver, etc. So it's hard to believe "there is no more sea" would not have been understood as meaning "there is no more evil" (or sin).

That doesn't preclude that physical waters will be different as well. We know from the SOP that the earth, as originally created, did not have the barren expanses of water (barren from our point of view) that we now see, so it is natural to expect the earth would return to this pre-fall form.

i think of the "winds" being more symbolic of evil.

I agree, Teresa.

We also have to be careful not to apply the same rule in every place, for there are different usages and contexts to consider. Satan may be represented as a roaring lion, but then...Christ is also the "lion of the tribe of Judah." Symbols can be used for separate things, even opposite in meaning: the two goats in the sacrificial system, for example.

I have been careful here to apply the symbols within the context of the same book and the same author, because I would readily agree that "sea" can symbolize other things in other places. I don't happen to have understood it to mean evil in general, however. I suppose one might say that since money is the root of all evil, and "sea" represents monetary exchanges, business and commerce....but it seems a stretch.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

i understand the saying to be, the love of money is the root of all evil...

Yes, that's right, teresa. It's not money that's the evil (which is, after all, simply a convenient way for exchanging goods and services) but the love of money that is the problem. Also many translations render the phrase "all kinds of evil" or "all sorts of evil."

In the Greek it says,"pantwn twn kakwn" which means literally "all the evils," (which, in English, we would say "all evils"), but Strong's has the following comment about the word "pantwn":



So the translation, using the Greek word order, "for a root all sorts of evil is the love of money" looks to be correct.


(This is rather weird software. In preview mode it renders the Greek characters fine, but then when you actually post it, it doesn't, so I changed it to be transliterated. It turns out is messes that up too, so had to tweak that.)

Sounds like a glitch that will hopefully be corrected in a future upgrade.

We went off into two tangents in our Sabbath School class discussion on the topic of heaven:

1 - The fate of the wicked in the Lake of Fire as in eternal torment of Rev. 20:9-10.

2 - No marriage and child birth in heaven and on the New Earth. (There seemed to be a difference of opinion regarding marriage and children being born on the New Earth). This discussion was based on Matthew 22:23-30 and other texts dealing with this.

Did anyone express the opinion that there will be marriage in the New Earth despite Jesus' words to the contrary?

Ellen is apparently referencing Isaiah 33 here.We can only speculate but surly there will be bodies of clear pure water in habited by imnumberal creatures. Am I remembering correctly that the earth made new wouldn't need a sun, the glory of God would be the light? If that were the case, there wouldn't be a need for a moon. Then there wouldn't be the effect of the moon upon the water as there is our oceans. Perhaps there will be no need for boat or oar as perhaps we will walk on water? No need for scuba or snorkel as we will breath in the water?

1Ch 1:19 And unto Eber were born two sons: the name of the one was Peleg; because in his days the earth was divided: and his brother's name was Joktan.

some see in this as continents breaking apart and oceans coming into being.

it seems that God would restore the earth to His original intention.
When God had formed the earth, there were mountains, hills, and plains, and interspersed among them were rivers and bodies of water. The earth was not one extensive plain, but the monotony of the scenery was broken by hills and mountains, not high and ragged as they now are, but regular and beautiful in shape. The bare, high rocks were never seen upon them, but lay beneath the surface, answering as bones to the earth. The waters were regularly dispersed. The hills, mountains, and very beautiful plains, were adorned with plants and flowers, and tall, majestic trees of every description, which were many times larger, and much more beautiful, than trees now are. The air was pure and healthful, and the earth seemed like a noble palace. Angels beheld and rejoiced at the wonderful and beautiful works of God. {3SG 33.1}

the ocean is beautiful with the waves......

From what I have found in Scripture, Heaven is a real place with events happening, and is populated.
For example, we know the angels are there, and that a certain type of angel surrounds God, and His Throne.
We will not live in heaven for eternity, but on the new earth, but we will be in heaven for the 1,000 years, while satan and his angels are here alone.
After all is said and done we could say it will be heaven on earth
Now regarding no sea etc.. I am wondering since the new earth will be like How Eden was, wouldn't it make sense that there be an ocean? I like to think of God not only as My Father, and Creator who sent His only Son to take away my sins, but He's an artist.. The ocean and its creatures are the opposite of the air, and its creatures i.e. flying fish\Butterflies, deep oceans and valleys\Air and Mountains.. Its really amazing, or maybe I have watched too much of BBC's Planet Earth
We only have nuggets of information how it will really be though, but we can be sure it will be something like we have never seen, imagined or heard.
God Bless,
-Will

Hi Will,

It's good to see you posting here.

Now to respond to what is being posted here.

It is my understanding that we will not need the sun and the moon within the New Jerusalem, but that we will still need the sun and the moon elsewhere.

We will also still have our daily and weekly cycle that will bring us to the 7th day Sabbath every week in which we will go and worship Him in person.

I definitely agree with you Darryl. What I find exciting is where in the universe will we need it
Is there anything in the SOP we can find? I will see what I can find as well.
God Bless,
-Will

speaking of not knowing that we dont know....if there is no day nor night how will that weekly-and monthly-cycle play out? i hadnt connected the two.....

Indeed.

No ocean / no sea = no whales. No whales = no equality to the original creation.

Of course, the New Earth does not have to be like the former one. But God did spend a fair bit of time in the original creation on the ocean/sea. Lest we forget, it was God who named the sea Himself (Gen. 1:10). So the "sea" was certainly no relic of sin. However, the oceans as we know them must certainly be different from the pre-flood seas.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Isaiah 30:26 Moreover the light of the moon shall be as the light of the sun, and the light of the sun shall be sevenfold

And the light of the sun will be superseded by God's radiance within the city.