t:I'm not quite sure how you see this. what I mean is, do you believe that Christ needed to die so I could live?

Christ died my death? not to appease a "punishing" god, or anything like that.

just a matter-of-fact I'm going to die even if I do "turn around" and become "righteous" for the rest of my life.

I have my own understanding of how this works and am only asking because such opposition is expressed against your view, so thought I should clarify for myself what is being opposed.

(M)an was deceived; his mind was darkened by Satan's sophistry. The height and depth of the love of God he did not know. For him there was hope in a knowledge of God's love. By beholding His character he might be drawn back to God. (DA 762)

"Subsitution" is just a word, of course, and can be used in different contexts. It means "in the place of," but what is taking the place of what (or who taking the place of whom) isn't always going to be the same thing.

Christ has made a sacrifice to satisfy the demands of justice. What a price for Heaven to pay to ransom the transgressor of the law of Jehovah. Yet that holy law could not be maintained with any smaller price. In the place of the law being abolished to meet sinful man in his fallen condition, it has been maintained in all its sacred dignity. In His Son, God gave Himself to save from eternal ruin all who would believe in Him. {UL 378.4}

Sin is disloyalty to God, and [is] deserving of punishment. Fig leaves sewed together have been employed since the days of Adam, yet the nakedness of the soul of the sinner is not covered. All the arguments pieced together by all who have interested themselves in this flimsy robe will come to nought. Sin is the transgression of the law. Christ was manifest in our world to take away transgression and sin, and to substitute for the covering of fig leaves the pure robes of His righteousness. The law of God stands vindicated by the suffering and death of the only begotten Son of the infinite God. {UL 378.5}

The transgression of God's law in a single instance, in the smallest particular, is sin. And the nonexecution of the penalty of that sin would be a crime in the divine administration. God is a judge, the Avenger of justice, which is the habitation and the foundation of His throne. He cannot dispense with His law; He cannot do away with its smallest item in order to meet and pardon sin. The rectitude, justice, and moral excellence of the law must be maintained and vindicated before the heavenly universe and the worlds unfallen.--Manuscript 145, Dec. 30, 1897, "Notes of Work." {UL 378.6}

Knowing you think God's doesn't need a sacrifice to meet the just demands of his law so as to save this sinful race - God merely needs to do a substitutionary demonstration of sin and agape to clarify his character, so we can realise the truth and believe God is love...: so, no legal necessities or conditions being met by our Saviour.

The life of Christ was not the price paid to the father for our pardon; but the life was the price which the Father paid to so manifest his loving power as to bring us to that repentant attitude of mind where he could pardon us freely. (God is Love)

What, Tom, of the red and blue bolded sentences in these EGW quotes? That God is just and justifier of believers (Rom 3:26) is expressed in the blue text, isn't it, by the penalty of the law against the sinner being applied, in Christ - as the other quotes state, and the red text says the same thing, in the context of meeting the law's demands.

If the governor of a State should indiscriminately pardon all offenses against the law, it would absolutely abolish all restraint of law. The motive in his mind might be love, but the love would be so unwisely and imprudently manifested that it would lead to anarchy and misery. The same is true of the Governor of the universe. His love and his wisdom are one. His pardoning power must be so exercised in “wisdom and prudence” as to lead men to unity and joy, and not to anarchy and misery, else it is not love....

Sin is secession from the government of God. Satan seceded, and sought to exalt his throne above that of God. Sinners are those who have joined themselves to Satan’s forces in the secession. God, in infinite love, sens his own and only Son to put down the rebellion. He cannot pardon those who are still in rebellion, for this would but justify the rebellion and dishonor the law, and so perpetuate and multiply the misery. But through Jesus this rebellion is finally to be put down entirely. “The seed of the woman shall bruise the serpent’s head.” O’er every hilltop of earth and heaven, where for a short time there has waved the black standard of the man of sin, there shall forever float the white pennon of the Prince of Peace.

Every one who lays down his arms and surrenders his opposing will to God has the promise of pardon. This pardon God can grant, and not dishonor his law. Yea, more, it is through this pardon that the mercy and love of God’s law and government are revealed, -- a love that only commanded the right way, not to be arbitrary and domineering, but that men might be happy, -- a love what when men repent of the wrong, and turn back their hearts toward the broken law, is ever willing to forgive the past and give power for future obedience. It is thus that God can be just, and still the justifier of those who believe on Jesus. It is thus that faith in Jesus exalts the law of God to the highest heavens, and established it forever.

The cross of Calvary, to the whole universe of intelligent beings, is the greatest demonstration that ever has been or ever can be given that God’s law is eternal and universal, and yet that his love is infinity; reaching down with tender, fatherly longing to life up the lowest transgressor. In fact, his love is his law, and the law is unchangeable because his love is from everlasting to everlasting. When men behold this, they are led to repent of past transgressions, and to pray for power for future obedience. It is thus that Christ is exalted to be a Prince and a Saviour, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins. It is thus that the atonement is made, and rebellious men are led back into unity with God and with one another. (God is Love)

Why do you think that these quotes do not spell out "penal substitution" for us by Christ, and why do you think EGW isn't, in these quotes, saying God had to have his Son to die so our sins could be taken away by the Messiah? These paragraphs are unambiguous of God needing a sacrifice for justice, only then licensed to forgive us, wouldn't you say?

But even as a sinner, man was in a different position from that of Satan. Lucifer in heaven had sinned in the light of God's glory. To him as to no other created being was given a revelation of God's love. Understanding the character of God, knowing His goodness, Satan chose to follow his own selfish, independent will. This choice was final. There was no more that God could do to save him. But man was deceived; his mind was darkened by Satan's sophistry. The height and depth of the love of God he did not know. For him there was hope in a knowledge of God's love. By beholding His character he might be drawn back to God. (DA 761, 762)

The life of Christ was not the price paid to the father for our pardon; but the life was the price which the Father paid to so manifest his loving power as to bring us to that repentant attitude of mind where he could pardon us freely.

First of all, I didn't say "God doesn't need a sacrifice to meet the just demands of his law so as to save this sinful race." What I said was that God doesn't need a sacrifice in order to be able to pardon us. Do you see the difference?

Yes. Not because of anything imposed by God, but because of the reality of the situation.



Yes. Christ "suffered" the death that was yours; that is, he experienced it on the cross. Were it not for Christ, you would have inevitably suffered the second death. Because of Christ's death, that need not be the case. You can choose His life instead.

[qutoe]just a matter-of-fact I'm going to die even if I do "turn around" and become "righteous" for the rest of my life.

I have my own understanding of how this works and am only asking because such opposition is expressed against your view, so thought I should clarify for myself what is being opposed.

(M)an was deceived; his mind was darkened by Satan's sophistry. The height and depth of the love of God he did not know. For him there was hope in a knowledge of God's love. By beholding His character he might be drawn back to God. (DA 762)

their happy estate could be retained only on condition of fidelity to the Creator's law. They could obey and live, or disobey and perish. God had made them the recipients of rich blessings; but should they disregard His will, He who spared not the angels that sinned, could not spare them; transgression would forfeit His gifts and bring upon them misery and ruin. {PP 53.1}

But should they once yield to temptation, their nature would become so depraved that in themselves they would have no power and no disposition to resist Satan. {PP 53.2}

i assumed the quote in my post referred to both the imparted righteousness of Christ as well as the imputed, based on her other writings.

both the imputed and imparted have to be our substitute, one covers while the other is inside. something like that anyway.

We believe that when the word righteousness is linked with faith by "by" or "of" in Scripture, the meaning is the experience of justification.

You mean, what if the Sanhedrin had accepted Jesus of Nazareth as the Messiah so many thought he was?

Tricky, but the Lamb of God would have had to be sacrificially slain for reasons other than opposing Caesar's throne - which was the Roman basis for convicting him. Whether the Jews could have sacrificed their Messiah, under Roman rule, as intended by God is unclear to me. It being under "Jewish" law, it may have been allowed, by the Romans...

Knowing you think God's doesn't need a sacrifice to meet the just demands of his law so as to save this sinful race - God merely needs to do a substitutionary demonstration of sin and agape to clarify his character, so we can realise the truth and believe God is love...: so, no legal necessities or conditions being met by our Saviour.

Sin is disloyalty to God, and [is] deserving of punishment. Fig leaves sewed together have been employed since the days of Adam, yet the nakedness of the soul of the sinner is not covered. All the arguments pieced together by all who have interested themselves in this flimsy robe will come to nought. Sin is the transgression of the law. Christ was manifest in our world to take away transgression and sin, and to substitute for the covering of fig leaves the pure robes of His righteousness. The law of God stands vindicated by the suffering and death of the only begotten Son of the infinite God. {UL 378.5}