If you haven't read his newer books, how do you know you don't like them? My wife says that's like a child who hasn't tried a certain new food, but is certain he doesn't like it.

I think your problem, and not just you, but everyone, is ignorance as to God's true character. When God is seen as He really is, we will be tranformed into that same character, and that's where the victory of the 144,000 comes. When we have erroneous views regarding God's character, we are transformed by those wrong views, and cannot help to misrepresent Him.

I notice from your posts that your focus is on remaining connected to Jesus. Do you not believe that salvation is by faith alone in Jesus Christ?

Tom, I don't think my character development is stalled or retarded because I am failing to grasp the true nature and character of God. But, just in case I'm wrong, what do you think I'm missing or misunderstanding? I'm being sincere. I really would like to know what you think.

Do I believe salvation is by faith alone in Jesus? Yes, I do. However, my definition of saving faith may not be the same as yours, though I suspect it is. I believe saving faith is never alone. I believe it always comes coupled with the fruit of faith, that is, obedience. We are not saved by works without faith, neither are we saved by faith without works, rather our faith works because we are saved. Faith, works and salvation cannot be separated.

James
2:14 What [doth it] profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

FW 94
Man cannot be saved without obedience, but his works should not be of himself; Christ should work in him to will and to do of His good pleasure. {FW 94.1}

PP 279
By obedience the people were to give evidence of their faith. So all who hope to be saved by the merits of the blood of Christ should realize that they themselves have something to do in securing their salvation. While it is Christ only that can redeem us from the penalty of transgression, we are to turn from sin to obedience. Man is to be saved by faith, not by works; yet his faith must be shown by his works. {PP 279.1}

I agree with your characterization of faith. The way I would put it is that justification is by faith which works.

If salvation is by faith alone in Jesus Christ, then all we need is faith. Period. We do not need to worry about being "connected". And indeed, since faith is all that is necessary, it must be by faith alone that we stay "connected." Otherwise salvation would not be by faith alone.

So given that it is by faith alone that we stay connected, and given that whatsoever is not of faith is sin, your assertion that we cannot sin while we are "connected" is a tautology. It is tantamount to saying that we cannot sin while we are not sinning. This is talking about known sin. So let me rephrase it this way. You're teaching is tantamount to saying that we cannot knowingly sin while we are not knowingly sinning.

The questions you are asking me about what you are lacking are much better directed to God. I can only make guesses based on what you have posted. But I cannot take God's place, nor would I want to.

There seems to be something you find offensive about God's mercy and forgiveness based on some things you've written, but I can't be specific about that. It could be that I'm misreading what you've written. Actually I think that's quite likely. I'm convinced in my own mind that your Calvanistic views of God's character are incorrect (I'm thinking in particular of the views relating to Christ's second coming).

I'll end by saying that if you have incorrect views of God's character, that cannot but hinder your ability to reproduce Christ's character. If you are sincere in your desire to know in what ways you are lacking in your knowledge of truth, ask God to show you. He will.

The Bible has nothing to say about being "connected" but lots to say about faith. I think the language you use is confusing, and I think most people feel that way. We've been having a conversation which has been going on a long time, and I still am not sure what you mean.

If you agree that all we need is faith (the right kind), then striving to be connected is the same thing as striving to have faith, if you want to put it that way. The Spirit of Prophesy talks about "cultivating faith." I would be comfortable with that expression.

Jones and Waggoner wrote a number of articles on this subject which are in the book "Lessons on Faith." It's on line here: http://www.maranathamedia.com.au/Download/Books/Online_Library_Author.htm. (I'm mentioning this because I'm fond of Jones and Waggoner, and it looks to me like you are to).

I think you're absolutely wrong about God's foreknowledge not affecting your character development. Not just because I think your view is incorrect, but because *any* incorrect view of God's character will impact your character development. It has to. It is by beholding that we become changed.

This ties into our conversation on another thread. Since any view of God's character impedes our character development, it is only by beholding His true character that our characters can be fully developed. This is where the final message God has for the world, the message of the truth of God's character, comes to play. This is our work as SDA's: to find out the truth about God, and to proclaim that truth.

I use the expressions "connected to Christ" and "abide in Him" interchangeably. So does Sister White. Both mean the same thing. for example:

OHC 216
You may have a fervent spirit, your heart all aglow with the love of Jesus. Abide in Christ as the branch abides in the vine; drawing sustenance from the vine, you will be a flourishing branch, and will bear much fruit to the glory of God. Oh, you much need to gaze fixedly upon Jesus! Keep beholding His charms. As you behold they will keep brightening and enlarging until you are filled with all the fullness of God and bear much fruit to His glory. The branch is too firmly connected with the parent stock to be swayed by every breeze. Strength and vigorous growth tell to the world that your root is in Jesus, that your foundation is sure. {OHC 216.6}

Again, I cannot believe that thinking God knows the day and hour Christ's return is a truth that is hindering my character development. Believing that God foresees and predicts the future choices and consequences of mankind, which ultimately lead up to the day and hour Christ's appearing, is biblical. The evidence of this truth is the fact God gave us prophecy, which outlines details that depends on knowing, in advance, the choices and consequences of mankind.

Whether our free will is real or illustionary is an issue involved. Whether God took a risk (He tell us He did) tells us something about Him.

We don't need to rehash the open-view discussion (although I'm happy to if you want, on another thread), as it's not the main point I was making. The main I point I was making was that if our views of God's character our incorrect, those views cannot be hinder our own character development because by beholding we become changed.

Good point, Tom. What we think and feel about the way God thinks and feels will most definitely affect our character development, because, as you have already mentioned, by beholding we become changed. With this in mind, do you know of any specific false doctrines that have been identified in the Bible or the SOP as things that specifically hinder character development, doctrines that cause us to develop sinful traits of character, things that will prevent us from entering the kingdom of God?

What about people of the past, people like Luther who misunderstood the truth regarding several key doctrines, such as sabbath keeping, alcohol, eternal torment? Will these things bar the gates of heaven against him? If not, then why not? Would such false doctrines keep us from being one of the 144,000? If so, then why? Does God have two different standards, one for the resurrected saints and one for the translated saints? What will happen to the character defects of the dead when they're resurrected, if they have any?

4T 429
The characters formed in this life will determine the future destiny. When Christ shall come, He will not change the character of any individual. (4T 429)

MYP 144
A well-balanced character is formed by single acts well performed. One defect, cultivated instead of being overcome, makes the man imperfect, and closes against him the gate of the Holy City. He who enters heaven must have a character that is without spot or wrinkle or any such thing. Naught that defileth can ever enter there. In all the redeemed host not one defect will be seen. {MYP 144.2}

If, as Sister White plainly says, our character determines our future destiny, and if Jesus will not change our character when He comes, then what about all those people who died in ignorance, who died believing false doctrines?

EDIT: added quotes.

[ November 13, 2004, 01:27 PM: Message edited by: Mike Lowe ]

Good questions Mike.

God doesn't have different standards as far as getting into heaven is concerned. Justification is by faith in Christ. That's the standard for all.

As far as the 144,000 and being alive to see Christ come, I think inspiration is clear that there is a different standard for that. EGW talks about those who will be laid to sleep, for example, intimating that they will be in heaven, but not a part of the 144,000.

Regarding Luther, he could not have been a part of the 144,000 believing as he did. Clearly no one will be a part of the 144,000 who believe Sunday is the Sabbath, as that is the point on which all will be tested. However, if he were alive at the time of the 144,000, if such a thing makes sense to talk about, I believe he would have opened his heart to the "present truth" at that time. Similarly, he would have gotten on Noah's ark, and would not have bowed to the statues in Daniel's time, etc.

I heard that faith is a verb in hebrew rather than an adjective.

/Thomas