Well, I think I've figured out what's wrong in the marathon controversy around here about Mike Lowe's insistence that you can not sin if you are a born again, true follower of Christ.

It's all centered on the "if only's".

EGW said that "if only" Adam had fully trusted God, the world would never have fallen into Satan's hands...If only Eve had stayed by Adam's side, she never would have fallen prey to the serpent....If only the Jews would have accepted Christ, he never would have had to suffer the horrendous crucifixion but would have been slain in the Jewish sacrificial way. Also in the volumnous "Testimonies for The Church" EGW takes on one individual after another, to say: "if only" you had done this,or not done that, the evil ruin in your life never would have happened. Well, that is absulutely true..irrefutable and perfect formal logic...and is why you can never win an argument with Mike on this board.

The "what if" premise can never be won because it is pure math , looks back on the unalterable past (unless you can time-travel),and is unarguable. But it is purely academic, which makes it perfect for a place like this where people write out their logic back and forth on forums that leave out every day real-life human experiences.

What makes people mad, I think, is that Mike can argue this academic logic until every last person has given up and left this forum in discouragement and despair...because they (and me) can never show Mike that real life on sinful Earth is just not academic. It is absolutely true that "if only" you never break your connection with Jesus, you will not, cannot sin. But, fact is, everybody does break that connection, if only for a few moments, even after conversion. But God knew that, and it's why there had to be a cross, and is why there is GRACE. In Mike's world there is no need for Grace, or for forgiveness, because at his own admission he is perfect because always connected. But God, if not Mike, realizes that even converted, born again Christian's ARE going to lose their connection from time to time, and ARE going to sin, and God has mercifully provided for that.

What I object to, and others as well, from the sound of other posts, is how Mike insists on this academic viewpoint that really has little to do with real life and is only a discouragement to real people in real situations.. So, now that I've gotten this figured out, I do at least know why I'm resentful of his posts most of the time,yet can't quite figure out what's wrong. It's because he's always right...but only if you live full time inside an SDA textbook and not out here in the real world where the rest of us live.

Restin, thank you for expressing your frustration regarding the view of rebirth I've been sharing on MSDAOL. I think you have identified the problem nicely. Everything affiliated with salvation is conditional and, therefore, somewhat academic. However, the Bible cites only one "if" relating to born again believers not sinning. Here it is:

1 John
2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for [the sins of] the whole world.

This is the only place in the entire Bible where God implies post-conversion sin and repentance. Check it out for yourself. I'm not making it up. All the other places where God promises victory and perfection, the equation is stated in the affirmative. That is, the promise simply says whoever is abiding in Jesus does not sin. Here's one of them:

1 John
3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

The condition is clear - if we are connected to Christ we will not commit a known sin. Don't blame me, or give me the credit, for this beautiful promise. God said it, not me. Since it is so plainly worded, we need to focus our energy on figuring out how it can be true, rather than trying to make it agree with reality, the real world experience of falling and failing and backsliding and coming short of the glory of God.

You implied that I never disconnect myself from Jesus or commit a known sin. Please, give me a break. I have never said such a thing. I don't mind you being upset, but please don't invent lies about me. All I'm saying is this - if we are connected to Jesus we do not and cannot commit a known sin. Yes, reality confirms that we do not always stay connected to Christ each anad every time we ar tempted to be unChristlike. But none of this negates the promises.

Sinning and repenting is not merely an academic problem - it's an epidemic problem. That's why Jesus lived and died the perfect life and death. He came to give us victory over our tendency to sin and come short of the glory of God. Our eternal life depends on us getting it right. If we fail to overcome, as Jesus overcame, then we will die in the lake of fire with Satan and his followers. That's the simple truth.

The idea that not sinning is merely academic, that it does not reflect reality, and is, therefore, bogus and bothersome information, borders on treason. If we go around telling people that the Bible promises perfection (here and now) but that it is nothing more than academic information, because the reality is we always fall short in one way or another - if we share the gospel in this manner we are representing Satan and his lies.

“Christ came to the world to counteract Satan’s falsehood that God had made a law which men could not keep. Taking humanity upon Himself, He came to this earth, and by a life of obedience showed that God has not made a law that man cannot keep. He showed that it is possible for man perfectly to obey the law. Those who accept Christ as their Saviour, becoming partakers of His divine nature, are enabled to follow His example, living in obedience to every precept of the law. Through the merits of Christ, man is to show by his obedience that he could be trusted in heaven, that he would not rebel.” (TMK 292)

“In the opening of the great controversy, Satan had declared that the law of God could not be obeyed, that justice was inconsistent with mercy, and that, should the law be broken, it would be impossible for the sinner to be pardoned. Every sin must meet its punishment, urged Satan; and if God should remit the punishment of sin, He would not be a God of truth and justice. When men broke the law of God, and defied His will, Satan exulted. It was proved, he declared, that the law could not be obeyed; man could not be forgiven. Because he, after his rebellion, had been banished from heaven, Satan claimed that the human race must be forever shut out from God’s favor. God could not be just, he urged, and yet show mercy to the sinner.

“But even as a sinner, man was in a different position from that of Satan. Lucifer in heaven had sinned in the light of God’s glory. To him as to no other created being was given a revelation of God’s love. Understanding the character of God, knowing His goodness, Satan chose to follow his own selfish, independent will. This choice was final. There was no more that God could do to save him. But man was deceived; his mind was darkened by Satan’s sophistry. The height and depth of the love of God he did not know. For him there was hope in a knowledge of God’s love. By beholding His character he might be drawn back to God.” (DA 761, 762)

Mike,

You said to Restin:
"You implied that I never disconnect myself from Jesus or commit a known sin. Please, give me a break. I have never said such a thing. I don't mind you being upset, but please don't invent lies about me. All I'm saying is this - if we are connected to Jesus we do not and cannot commit a known sin."

Mike, you said this in a previous post:
"If Sister White's theology is representative of the SDA Church then, Yes, it is the official position. However, there are members within the SDA Church, even here on MSDAOL, who do not agree with it. They believe we are born again morally defective, and that we gradually outgrow our imperfections after years of sinning and repenting until we eventually cease sinning. This is a fatal lie, and may very well be the reason why mankind is still wandering in the wilderness of sin, instead of fellowshipping with angels and loved ones in heaven."

You didnt merely say "if we are connected to Jesus we do not and cannot commit a known sin."

I think it can be quite discouraging to some if they end up believing that if they sin they are not really converted. And I think that would be just as Satan would want it.

Also, after all this time of seeing your posts on this subject and (forgive me for saying this) your seeming obsession with this, I still cant figure out just what you are trying to get at. I dont understand why you are constantly on this subject and what it is you are trying to get people to believe.

From what I know of the Spirit of Prophecy there are two lines of thought (both errors) of those who claim we do not sin...

First there are those who claim once we are "saved" we are automatically put into a place where we no longer sin, in the eyes of God and so it really doesnt matter what you do... you are going to be saved anyway. The results of that idea is to think yourself "ok" when in reality you are in bad shape spiritually. For more info:
http://www.egwtext.whiteestate.org/gc/gc27.html

Secondly, there are those who claim once we are saved we must be perfectly sinless and in fact they claim they themselves are sinless... in which case they would be wrong and have not a clue about the perfection of Christ and how far from perfect they really are in comparison.. The results of that thinking is they will finally believe themselves to be "ok" spiritually when in reality they are like the Pharisees who think themselves "holier than thou" instead of the Publican who says "God have mercy upon me, a sinner". For more info: http://www.egwtext.whiteestate.org/col/col13.html

Either way is a great error and I just cannot figure out which one of these you are, and if you claim you are not trying to push one of these two ideas then why is it you are continually trying to promote this "no sin" theology?


It concerns me, as I do not want anyone thinking they are allright when they are still far from God, either way.

The Pharisee and the liberal "sin and live" are both in sorry shape and under a deception.

I realize this could probably be considered an "attack" by me on you but I just think it needs to be said. And it wouldnt be the first time I've been thrown off a forum anyway

Claudia

Tom, inspiration clearly tells us that we cannot commit a known sin while abiding in Christ. Of course, sins committed unwittingly are not counted against us. And unintentional sins are also known sins. I agree with you that there is a difference between "does not sin" and does not need to sin or does not continue in sin, but the truth is the same - in Christ we do not want to sin, we do not have to sin, and we do not sin. Without Him all we can do is sin.

Therefore, as you continue to affirm, we must keep our eyes on Jesus so that the Holy Spirit can continue to empower us to imitate the example of Christ. The result is two fold - we don't commit known sins and we mature in the fruits of the Spirit. We cannot avoid the sin problem, hoping it will go away naturally, all on its own, without any effort on our part. We must labor, agonize, wrestle and strive to enter in at the strait gate.

1 John
3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not.

MH 180
Christ came to make us "partakers of the divine nature," and His life declares that humanity, combined with divinity, does not commit sin. {MH 180.5}

FW 48
We are to do all that we can do on our part to fight the good fight of faith. We are to wrestle, to labor, to strive, to agonize to enter in at the strait gate. We are to set the Lord ever before us. With clean hands, with pure hearts, we are to seek to honor God in all our ways. Help has been provided for us in Him who is mighty to save. The spirit of truth and light will quicken and renew us by its mysterious workings; for all our spiritual improvement comes from God, not from ourselves. The true worker will have divine power to aid him, but the idler will not be sustained by the Spirit of God. {FW 48.1}

In one way we are thrown upon our own energies; we are to strive earnestly to be zealous and to repent, to cleanse our hands and purify our hearts from every defilement; we are to reach the highest standard, believing that God will help us in our efforts. We must seek if we would find, and seek in faith; we must knock, that the door may be opened unto us. The Bible teaches that everything regarding our salvation depends upon our own course of action. If we perish, the responsibility will rest wholly upon ourselves. If provision has been made, and if we accept God's terms, we may lay hold on eternal life. We must come to Christ in faith, we must be diligent to make our calling and election sure. {FW 48.2}

If unintentional sinning is inevitable, insurmountable, impossible to overcome, to resist, to escape - then why would God promise us victory? Since there is no excuse for committing known sins it stands to reason that, in Christ, victory includes unintentional sins and situations. If not now, when? Does victory depend on failure, on failing less and less often, less and less intensely, until we eventually, gradually stop sinning unintentionally altogether?

Luke
11:4 And lead us not into temptation; but deliver us from evil.

1 Corinthians
10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God [is] faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear [it].

2 Peter
1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

A lot of unintentional sin is unknown. That is, we commit sins by unintentionally misrepresenting God's character because we don't know any better. For example, if we view God as a harsh dictator who is waiting to punish us if we do anything wrong, we sin. The Spirit of Prophesy tells us we can construct idols out of our false philosophies just as much as from wood or stone.

The 144,000 will obtain victory over all sin. The last message to be given is a message of love, a message of God's character. "Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love." (COL 415)

Truth is progressive and God gives truth corporately. We can see this in our church. First of all around 1844 God gave the truth regarding the Sabbath, the State of the Dead, the Sanctuary and so forth. Before the truth of the Sabbath was known for example, the prophesies regarding the 144,000 could not be fulfilled. God's character cannot be correctly represented when His followers are unwittingly sinning (to use your expression).


A proper representation of God's character is dependent on truth. As long as we have misunderstanding of God's character it is IMPOSSIBLE to not unwittingly sin (sorry for the double negative). Since truth is progressive, there is no way this can happen in the blink of an eye, when one is converted.

The very word "unintentional" conveys that something is being done apart from ones volition. When one is converted, one does not become a robot. How would it be possible for one not to do something that doesn't involve volition? (there's the double negative again).

What God does is to make us aware of unintentional sins. Victory over such sins is not instantaneous nor could it be. First we have to become aware of a sin before we can repent of it. That's just common sense.

It looks like we're dancing around semantics (and to think, Adventists aren't supposed to dance). What you term sinning unintentionally I call sinning ignorantly. So long as we're willing to overlook our semantic differences, then I think it safe to say we're talking about the same thing, namely, God can and does empower us to resist sinning in situations where we normally sin automatically, spontaneously. And I thank God for His enabling influence and power. And, I might add, my wife is thankful too. She definitely appreciates it when I am calm, cool and collected - instead of blowing it like an idiot. Thank you, Jesus.

Also, I want to tell you how much I appreciate the way you focus on the love and character of God. It is sad, way too sad, the way people tend to be ego-centric as they seek to fight the good fight of faith. It's so easy to lose sight of the bigger picture. Our planet, our minds and hearts, are the battle field where Jesus and Satan are fighting over the issues concerning the great controversy, and all too often we forget that we're just a small part of what's going on here. So, thanx for keeping us on track. I love you, brother. Happy Sabbath.