teresa: the question, elle, is, is penal substitution biblical? have we been taught penal substitution and therefore read the bible in that light?

Elle, it's not a relevant quote because she doesn't exclude it, and she's only talking of God being fair to Lucifer, which is her context.

Teresa, Sister White could not be more explicit about the penalty of the law being applied for any transgression, however slight, so that God's holy & just law be vindicated. We are speculating on very dangerous ground with Lucifer, since the lesson on our own penal punishment of eternal death under the law of God is so clear: God's whole plan for restoring Lucifer is unknown to us, even from Sister White.

The fire of hell is only reserved already for Satan & co: that means, given that wicked humans are landing up there too, that Lucifer and his angels' options were the same as ours, but they turned it down. Lucifer broke God's law, claiming it "unfair" and God in response was only being "fair" to him: that's all we're told. Beyond that we are fishing.

As for Christ's death itself: should God not need to execute sinners under penalty for sin, in order to pardon - despite SOP spelling it out very clearly that this is necessary, why, just to alert us fully to his love and that we can come back should we wish, put his own beloved Son through a CRUCIFIXION...??????

That's mind numbingly cruel in my book: doesn't put God is a good light at all! Where's the wisdom of God finding an easier way to prove his love for us: wasn't Jesus' 3 year ministry sufficient, as Jesus himself said it was clear proof he was doing the works of God.?

Only should death justly be required of the sinner, as the applied penalty of God's government, is there any point in having a substitutionary death at all: dying for us under God's justice makes sense for Jesus, but dying for the sake of evil to be displayed - whatever God thought he was doing in all that! - saves no-one from death under God's regime...: death under judgement is hell fire, which Ellen White clearly also speaks to, in some detail too!

The substitute for suffering our penalty for sin - penal substitution - is Jesus.

Satan stood in amazement at his new condition. His happiness was gone. He looked upon the angels who, with him, were once so happy, but who had been expelled from Heaven with him. Before their fall, not a shade of discontent had marred their perfect bliss. Now all seemed changed. Countenances which had reflected the image of their Maker were gloomy and despairing. Strife, discord, and bitter recrimination, were among them. Previous to their rebellion these things had been unknown in Heaven. Satan now beholds the terrible results of his rebellion. He shuddered, and feared to face the future, and to contemplate the end of these things. {1SP 28.1}

It's clearly a relevant quote, and I'm glad Elle sees it. The argument is very powerful.

It's really a relevant quote. Not, however, to prove what you want it to prove.
Penal substitution occurred because man fell. Before falling, Eve obviously coveted the fruit, but, as I see it, if she had decided not to go ahead, she wouldn't have fallen, and the atonement wouldn't have been necessary. Anyway, the issue in question is fall - defiant disobedience, withdrawal from allegiance. Since the passage quoted speaks about the period before Lucifer fell, it doesn't apply at all to the issue of penal substitution.

Satan tempted the first Adam in Eden, and Adam reasoned with the enemy, thus giving him the advantage. Satan exercised his power of hypnotism over Adam and Eve, and this power he strove to exercise over Christ. But after the word of Scripture was quoted, Satan knew that he had no chance of triumphing.--Lt 159, 1903.(5BC 1081.) {2MCP 713.1}

Yes, God doesn't want anyone to suffer. Is he also just and holy and good? How does that justice and holiness work with sinners? Deception or directly rejecting God's truth don't influence the justice of holiness. "God is an avenging judge." He is also merciful, so we get both sides of him as he saves us!

EGW is crystal clear that the penalty of the law for sin must be applied for our salvation to occur - God needs to be just in order to save us from our death by his judgement.

Yes, natural consquences of sin...: does sin result on mortal death alone or naturally also in eternal death? In fact, does sin itself kill, or just extreme, sinful actions? We like to reason that "separation from God" leads to separation from life, but is that the actual future end for the wicked that the Bible tells of?? Is that the end of the matter as the SOP elaborates on the Bible???

Zec 3:1 And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him.
Zec 3:2 And the LORD said unto Satan, The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan; even the LORD that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?
Fallen man is Satan's lawful captive. The mission of Jesus Christ was to rescue him from his power. Man is naturally inclined to follow Satan's suggestions, and he cannot of himself successfully resist so terrible a foe, unless Christ, the mighty Conqueror, dwells in him, guiding his desires, and giving him strength. ... {4bSG 100.1}

If he could in any way beguile them to disobedience, God would make some provision whereby they might be pardoned, and then himself and all the fallen angels would be in a fair way to share with them of God's mercy. If this should fail, they could unite with Adam and Eve, for when once they should transgress the law of God they would be subjects of God's wrath, like themselves. Their transgression would place them, also, in a state of rebellion, and they could unite with Adam and Eve, take possession of Eden, and hold it as their home. And if they could gain access to the tree of life in the midst of the garden, their strength would, they thought, be equal to that of the holy angels, and even God Himself could not expel them. {SR 27.3}
Satan held a consultation with his evil angels. They did not all readily unite to engage in this hazardous and terrible work. He told them that he would not entrust any one of them to accomplish this work, for he thought that he alone had wisdom sufficient to carry forward so important an enterprise. He wished them to consider the matter while he should leave them and seek retirement, to mature his plans. He sought to impress upon them that this was their last and only hope. If they failed here, all prospect of regaining and controlling heaven, or any part of God's creation, was hopeless. {SR 28.1}

t:It seems to make all the difference in the world as to how one looks at it.

C:EGW is crystal clear that the penalty of the law for sin must be applied for our salvation to occur - God needs to be just in order to save us from our death by his judgement.

We like to reason that "separation from God" leads to separation from life, but is that the actual future end for the wicked that the Bible tells of?? Is that the end of the matter as the SOP elaborates on the Bible???

This is not an act of arbitrary power on the part of God. The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown. God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life. He is "alienated from the life of God." Christ says, "All they that hate Me love death." Eph. 4:18; Prov. 8:36. God gives them existence for a time that they may develop their character and reveal their principles. This accomplished, they receive the results of their own choice. By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them. (DA 764)

R:It's really a relevant quote. Not, however, to prove what you want it to prove.

R:Penal substitution occurred because man fell.

satan had defiant disobedience. adam and eve were deceived.

At any rate, the issue that I've been consistently arguing against is the idea that God needed Christ's sacrifice in order to be able to pardon sin. The SOP statement dealing with God's treatment of Lucifer shows this clearly isn't the case.

The difference with Satan was in the degree of light they had, but, like Satan, they disobeyed willfully:

To Adam and Eve were plainly stated the laws of Paradise, with the penalty for willful disobedience. They disobeyed, and disobedience brought its sure result. Death entered the world. {HP 153.2}

If God hadn't spoken to them, they would have an excuse, but God Himself spoke to them, yet they chose to disbelieve Him.

Eve really believed the words of Satan, but her belief did not save her from the penalty of sin. She disbelieved the words of God, and this was what led to her fall. In the judgment men will not be condemned because they conscientiously believed a lie, but because they did not believe the truth, because they neglected the opportunity of learning what is truth. {CC 15.7}

If God hadn't spoken to them, they would have an excuse, but God Himself spoke to them, yet they chose to disbelieve Him.

We've discussed this too much in the past, and it would be useless to discuss it any further,

but the need for an atonement arises in the case of willful sins.

Said the angel, "If light comes, and that light is set aside, or rejected, then comes condemnation and the frown of God; but before the light comes there is no sin, for there is no light for them to reject."(Spiritual Gifts Volume 4b (1864), page 3)

God must vindicate His law.

Pardon for willful sin (rebellion against God's law) without an atonement would plunge the universe into anarchy.

If the governor of a State should indiscriminately pardon all offenses against the law, it would absolutely abolish all restraint of law. The motive in his mind might be love, but the love would be so unwisely and imprudently manifested that it would lead to anarchy and misery. The same is true of the Governor of the universe. His love and his wisdom are one. His pardoning power must be so exercised in “wisdom and prudence” as to lead men to unity and joy, and not to anarchy and misery, else it is not love. (God if Love)

Therefore, God needs an atonement in order to forgive.

The life of Christ was not the price paid to the father for our pardon; but the life was the price which the Father paid to so manifest his loving power as to bring us to that repentant attitude of mind where he could pardon us freely. (God is Love)