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Re: I have some questions [Re: Tom] #115099
06/25/09 10:30 PM
06/25/09 10:30 PM
teresaq  Offline
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Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,984
CA, USA
some bible trivia
what we translate as "Jehovah" means eternal, self-existent, and is usually translated in the kjv as LORD.

here it means Father, Son and HS are eternal and self-existent.
Gen 2:4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,

"Angel of the LORD" or angel of the self-existent, eternal would refer to Jesus and the Father.

Psa 110:1 <A Psalm of David.> The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
the selg-existent, eternal said to adon

From an unused root (meaning to rule); sovereign, that is, controller (human or divine): - lord, master, owner. Compare also names beginning with “Adoni-”.

it seems the texts have to be studied to see Who is referred to when using LORD. my general impression in ellen whites writings was that she used Jehovah to refer to the Father.


Psa 64:5 ...an evil matter: they commune of laying snares privily; they say, Who shall see them?

Psa 7:14 Behold, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood. 15 He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made. 16 His mischief (and his violent dealing) shall return upon his own head.

Psa 7:17 I will praise the LORD according to his righteousness: and will sing praise to the name of the LORD most high.
Re: I have some questions [Re: Tom] #115106
06/26/09 07:25 AM
06/26/09 07:25 AM
J
James Saptenno  Offline OP
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Active Member 2012
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Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,157
Jakarta, Indonesia
Simple thinking kuriakê is Sunday or 1st day in Greek.

The wording " τη κυριακη ημερα - tê kuriakê hêmera " has been used since the 2nd century that reffers to Sunday.

If John said that Sunday is the Lord's Day, and Jesus is the Lord of Sabbath, does it means that Christians Sabbath is Sunday?? This is what non SDA's belief.

In His love

Last edited by Green Cochoa; 06/26/09 09:08 AM. Reason: Enabled HTML in post
Re: I have some questions [Re: James Saptenno] #115107
06/26/09 07:35 AM
06/26/09 07:35 AM
Will  Offline
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Posts: 2,332
BC, Canada
As I said James. I personally dont believe its neither. You mentioned the wording tê kuriakê hêmera has been used since the second century, how would this go along with the book of Luke, and other books written before that time.
Do you feel there is no other option besides Sabbath or the first day of the week, which by the way would not be "sunday" but the "First of the Sabbaths". I recall the word usage to describe what day of the week it was coincided with how close you were to the 7th Day Sabbath i.e. First, Second of the Sabbath etc..
I need to dig around abit and get some references that point this out. If anyone else knows what I am referring to, feel free to post some info laugh
God Bless,
Will

Last edited by Will; 06/26/09 07:36 AM.
Re: I have some questions [Re: Will] #115108
06/26/09 07:55 AM
06/26/09 07:55 AM
J
James Saptenno  Offline OP
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Posts: 1,157
Jakarta, Indonesia
While waiting for more inputs on the Lord's day, here is my next question: Matthew 24:20 Pray that your flight may not be in winter or on a Sabbath.

The question is: if the day comes thst they must take a flight, but it is Sabbath, what do you think they will do ar act?

When applied to us, when we pray that our flight don't fall on Sabbath, but in fact it still fall on Sabbath, what should we do?

In His love

Re: I have some questions [Re: James Saptenno] #115109
06/26/09 10:17 AM
06/26/09 10:17 AM
E
Elle  Offline
Active Member 2019
Died February 12, 2019

2500+ Member
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,536
Canada
Originally Posted By: James Saptenno
Simple thinking kuriakê is Sunday or 1st day in Greek.

The wording " - tê kuriakê hêmera " has been used since the 2nd century that reffers to Sunday.
Hi James, Where do you get that Kuriake means Sunday? I just check the Greek word and it means "1) belonging to the Lord 2) related to the Lord".

There's only two instances of Kuriake in the NT.
1. the "Lord's day" in Rev 1, and the other
2. the "Lord's supper" in 1Cr 11:20.

Can you provide your source that says that kuriake means Sunday? Also your source that "te kuriake hemera" saying that it has been used since the 2nd century and reffers to Sunday? For sure we can anticipate that history records floating around for us to see will say that it means Sunday as that's what they want us to believe. However, that's not what the Greek word means according to the concordance.


Blessings
Re: I have some questions [Re: Elle] #115119
06/26/09 01:25 PM
06/26/09 01:25 PM
K
kland  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,425
Midland
Excellent critical thinking there, Elle! wink

Re: I have some questions [Re: kland] #115120
06/26/09 02:47 PM
06/26/09 02:47 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
This is from Wiki:

Quote:
"Lord's Day" is the English translation of the ancient Greek kyriake hemera, a term that first appears in Christian literature in the latter half of the first century. Within a few decades, however, the term kyriake hemera became ubiquitous in Christianity, so that hemera was ellided. Thus, when a Christian writer referred to the kyriake, his readers understood that Sunday was meant.

The first appearance of the term kyriake hemera is in the New Testament, in the Book of Revelation, which was written in the latter decades of the first century. In Rev. 1:10, the author writes, "I was in the Spirit on the Lord's Day." Most Christian commentators interpret Rev. 1:10 as a reference to Sunday, but some argue that because Revelation contains numerous eschatological visions, kyriake hemera in this passage should be taken as a reference to the end of the world or Judgment Day, which Old Testament prophets often called the Day of the Lord. However, in the Septuagint, the Greek translation of the Old Testament, as well as in the original Greek texts of the New Testament, the eschatological judgment day is called hemera tou kyriou, never kyriake hemera. It is possible that when Christians began to call Sunday "the Lord's Day," they opted for kyriake hemera because hemera tou kyriou already had acquired its own connotation or meaning due to the Septuagint rendering.

Some seventh-day Sabbatarian writers have argued that because Jesus identified himself as "Lord even of the Sabbath day" (cf. Matt. 12:8), kyriake hemera in Rev. 1:10 should be interpreted as a reference to seventh-day Sabbath. However, in almost every other instance where kyriake hemera or kyriake is used, the unambiguous meaning is Sunday, but there are no early witnesses to the use of kyriake hemera as a name for Saturday.


I was wondering why the dative was used instead of the genitive. This is suggesting it's because the genitive was already a fixed phrase, with its own meaning. ("hemera tou kyriou" is the genitive, which literally means "day of the Lord").

I can't remember what Samuel Bacchiocchi said about this (i.e. the "Lord's day"). Anyone know?


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: I have some questions [Re: Tom] #115121
06/26/09 03:33 PM
06/26/09 03:33 PM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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Active Member 2021

5500+ Member
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
Originally Posted By: Tom
I can't remember what Samuel Bacchiocchi said about this (i.e. the "Lord's day"). Anyone know?


I just searched my emails, as I was on his list, but came up empty...so I took the search online and got the following:

Originally Posted By: Samuele Bacchiocchi, Ph.D.
The claim that "the book of Revelation gives evidence of calling the first day of the week 'the Lord's Day' (Rev 1:10)" (#21), cannot be supported by the usage of the phrase in the NT or contemporary literature.

The first clear designation of Sunday as "Lord's day" occurs toward the end of the second century in the apocryphal Gospel of Peter. This usage cannot be legitimately read back into Revelation 1:10. A major reason is that if Sunday had already received the new appellation "Lord's day" by the end of the first century, when both the Gospel of John and the book of Revelation were written, we would expect this new name for Sunday to be used consistently in both works, especially since they were apparently produced by the same author at approximately the same time and in the same geographical area.

If the new designation "Lord's day" already existed by the end of the first century, and expressed the meaning and nature of Christian Sunday worship, John would hardly have had reasons to use the Jewish phrase "first day of the week" in his Gospel.

Therefore, the fact that the expression "Lord's day" occurs in John's apocalyptic book but not in his Gospel-where the first day is explicitly mentioned in conjunction with the resurrection (John 20:1) and the appearances of Jesus (John 20:19, 26)-suggests that the "Lord's day" of Revelation 1:10 can hardly refer to Sunday. (For a discussion of this text, see my dissertation From Sabbath to Sunday, pp. 111-131).


To see the full context of that statement, visit the website HERE.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: I have some questions [Re: Green Cochoa] #115136
06/26/09 09:18 PM
06/26/09 09:18 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Thanks, GC.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: I have some questions [Re: kland] #115247
06/30/09 03:53 AM
06/30/09 03:53 AM
J
James Saptenno  Offline OP
Charter Member
Active Member 2012
Dedicated Member
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,157
Jakarta, Indonesia
Originally Posted By: kland
According to my Strong's greek, kuriakos means belonging to the Lord and hemera can mean gentle, day and can include parts of other days, period of time, for ever, judgement, while, years.

I'd be interested in how it would mean Sunday.

In reading the verse, I could see how alternatives could be:
I was in the Spirit on the day of the flood.
I was in the Spirit at creation.
I was in the Spirit in the future.
I was in the Spirit on the day of the Lord.

I would therefore, tend to agree with Will, and that this verse is setting the setting of what is to follow.


Revelation 1:10 - I was in the Spirit on the Lord's Day, and I heard behind me a great voice like the calling of a war trumpet, ……………

John got continuous visions after this statement.

So, how could we say that this vision he got happened on a day in the future. It must be happen on a literal day, if not Sabbath then Sunday.

If “te kureakê hêmera" really means in modern Greek “ a day that belongs to the Lord” which falls on Sunday, then, we must agree with non SDA’s that the Lord’s Day in Rev. 1:10 is really Sunday.

I could not agree with the idea that this day is somewhere in the future, it must be a literal day.

In His love

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