Ok, thanks for the explanations. I won't quote the bloodthirsty one any more, or the "God is the author of death" one. But the others are OK to quote, it looks like.

Nowhere is it said that God knows in advance who will sin and rebel and die in the lake of fire. Nor is it ever said that God is responsible for creating a situation where sin and death was inevitable.

I believe this strikes at the very core of what the GC is about, and that by saying this you are taking Satan's side. I don't mean to imply that you're choosing to take his side, but that you're putting forth the same argument that he puts forth when you state that God is responsible for sin, rather than Satan.

My reading of the SOP is that the entrance of sin was a mystery. Even if you asked God why it came about, He couldn't tell you a "why." He knew it was possible, but He certainly did not create a situation that made it inevitable.

Them's fighting words!

One more thing. I'd like to honor teresa's desire that we stay on topic. There is a direct tie-in to the plagues by means of what kland pointed out, and I'm responding with that thought in mind. Certainly, IMO, discussing what the fundamental issue of the GC is is relevant to our discussion of the plagues. I'm trying to keep our discussion of how God views the future in this context, and not allow it to digress to a general discussion of foreknowledge and the future, as we have other threads for this.

ultimately it was all about power, but when we are deluded....but im not the one who came up with that. its in the records.

Joh 16:2 They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service.

paul hunted people down in the name of God. he said: Rom 10:2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.

im not sure of the purpose for this question. it sounds like, on the surface, that God is somehow being compared with the actions of evil men?

Not "reinterpreting." Just "interpreting."

I understand you have a difficult time with this, because of your paradigm. To me it reads naturally.



You mean "also" as in "in addition to"? That is, Satan and the holy angels are working hand in hand?

I don't know if you got a change to read this post, so I'm reposting the following

While thinking about this some more, it occurred to me that there's a rather simply way to explain the differences of opinion here. There are two sets of statements in the SOP. On the one hand, the SOP says things like:

a.Force is not a principle of God's government. Compelling force is to be found only in Satan's government.
b.All that man can know of God was revealed in the life and character of His Son while here in the flesh.

On the other hand, there are scores of statements where it appears that God is acting violently and using force. So how is this apparent contradiction to be resolved?

It appears to me there are two ways to go about this. One way is to particularize the above statements, a and b. So that rather than describing how God always works, they describe how God generally works. So, for example, a. becomes:

a.Generally speaking, God does not use force or act violently. But there are some exceptions.

Now we can harmonize concept a. with statements where God acts violently and uses force by simply considering these statements to be exceptions.

I don't know how to particularize b, but I'm sure one could attempt to do so in a way similar to a.

The other way to harmonize the apparent contradictions is to take the approach that there is another explanation to the events in Scripture which depict God as acting violently or using force.

While the former approach is by far more common, I believe the latter approach is the correct one.



This isn't what I said. I explained my thought in detail. Please re-read it, and, if you wish, you can comment on that.

Here are some more passages to study:

Was the penalty remitted because He was the Son of God? Were the vials of wrath withheld from Him who was made sin for us? Without abatement the penalty fell upon our divine-human Substitute. {HP 15.5}

Christ [on the cross] felt much as sinners will feel when the vials of God's wrath shall be poured out upon them. Black despair like the pall of death will gather about their guilty souls, and then they will realize to the fullest extent the sinfulness of sin. {Mar 271.2}

Christ might commission the angels of heaven to pour out the vials of His wrath on our world, to destroy those who are filled with hatred of God. He might wipe this dark spot from His universe. But He does not do this. He is today standing at the altar of incense, presenting before God the prayers of those who desire His help. {DA 568.4}

When Adam's sin plunged the race into hopeless misery, God might have cut Himself loose from fallen beings. He might have treated them as sinners deserve to be treated. He might have commanded the angels of heaven to pour out upon our world the vials of His wrath. He might have removed this dark blot from His universe. But He did not do this. Instead of banishing them from His presence, He came still nearer to the fallen race. He gave His Son to become bone of our bone and flesh of our flesh. . . . {AG 176.4}

Before Christ's first advent, the sin of refusing to conform to God's law had become widespread. Apparently Satan's power was growing; his warfare against heaven was becoming more and more determined. A crisis had been reached. With an intense interest God's movements were watched by the heavenly angels. Would He come forth from His place to punish the inhabitants of the world for their iniquity? Would He send fire or flood to destroy them? All heaven waited the bidding of their Commander to pour out the vials of wrath upon a rebellious world. One word from Him, one sign, and the world would have been destroyed. The worlds unfallen would have said, "Amen. Thou art righteous, O God, because Thou hast exterminated rebellion." {RC 58.4}

I want to tell you another thing. The vials of God's wrath and the sprinkling of them are already coming. What is the matter that we do not discern it? It is because the light of truth does not affect the heart. The Spirit of God is being withdrawn from the world. {2SM 51.3}

Is it true that the end of all things is at hand? What mean the awful calamities by sea--vessels hurled into eternity without a moment's warning? What mean the accidents by land--fire consuming the riches men have hoarded, much of which has been accumulated by oppression of the poor. The Lord will not interfere to protect the property of those who transgress His law, break His covenant, and trample upon His Sabbath, accepting in its place a spurious rest day. {5MR 15.1}

The plagues of God are already falling upon the earth, sweeping away the most costly structures as if by a breath of fire from heaven. Will not these judgments bring professing Christians to their senses? God permits them to come that the world may take heed, that sinners may be afraid and tremble before Him.--Ms 99, 1902, pp. 12, 13. ("Fragments--a Holy People," typed July 12, 1902.) {5MR 15.2}

There are soul-destroying superstitions in our world in 1890. When Christ shall come the second time, the whole world will be represented by two classes, the just and the unjust, the righteous and the unrighteous. Preceding the great sign of the coming of the Son of man, there will be signs and wonders in the heavens. {4MR 444.1}

I expect that during the year 1890 there will be great mortality. There will be crimes greater than any now on record. There will be weeping and lamentation and woe. During the past year, 1889, there has been brought to us almost daily the news of disasters by sea and by land--unusually destructive fires; earthquakes burying cities and villages with their inhabitants; railway accidents most terrible; tornadoes and floods that destroyed an immense amount of property, including the terrible Johnstown and Williamsport floods, which destroyed more than two thousand lives. {4MR 444.2}

The disasters of the past year [1889] in America have caused hearts to tremble, and similar disasters have fallen upon other countries. Already sprinklings from the vials of God's wrath have been let fall upon land and sea, affecting the elements of the air. The causes of these unusual conditions are being searched for, but in vain. {4MR 444.3}

God has not restrained the powers of darkness from carrying forward their deadly work of vitiating the air, one of the sources of life and nutrition, with a deadly miasma. Not only is vegetable life affected, but man suffers from pestilences. Cholera and unexplainable diseases have broken out. Diphtheria raging to a limited extent, is gathering its harvest of precious little ones, and seems to be almost uncontrollable. {4MR 444.4}

These things are the result of the drops from the vials of God's wrath being sprinkled on the earth, and are but faint representations of what will be in the near future. Earthquakes in various places have been felt, but these disturbances have been very limited. This year we may expect to have more. During the year that has just closed, whole cities have become nearly extinct. Thousands of people have been buried in the bowels of the earth. Premonitory convulsions have been felt in many places, giving warning of what may come as a surprise when the earth shakes and opens. Terrible shocks will come upon the earth, and the lordly palaces erected at great expense will certainly become heaps of ruins. The earth's crust will be rent by the outbursts of the elements concealed in the bowels of the earth. These elements, once broken loose, will sweep away the treasures of those who for years have been adding to their wealth by securing large possessions at starvation prices from those in their employ. And the religious world, too, is to be terribly shaken; for the end of all things is at hand.--Ms 24, 1891. {4MR 445.1}

John . . . was a witness of the terrible scenes that will take place as signs of Christ's coming. He saw armies mustering for battle, and men's hearts failing them for fear. He saw the earth moved out of its place, the mountains carried into the midst of the sea, the waves thereof roaring and troubled, and the mountains shaking with the swelling thereof. He saw the vials of God's wrath opened, and pestilence, famine, and death come upon the inhabitants of the earth (RH Jan. 11, 1887). {7BC 982.3}

Matthew Henry is a 5 point Calvinist. I'm not sure if you know what it means, but, in simple terms, he's as strong a Calvinist as one can be (I can explain 5 point Calvinist in more detail, if you prefer). 5 point Calvinism is about as far from Adventism as one can get.

You wrote:

1. What I believe is that the holy angels pour out the plagues by "releasing."

2. The holy angels release their protection, and the evil angels cause destruction, and this is what the plagues consist of.

In light of these insights, please address the following questions:

1. Do you know of any inspired passages that describe the holy angels pouring out the plagues of Rev 16 by "releasing"?

Do you know of any inspired passages that describe evil angels causing the things symbolized in the plagues of Rev 16?

Regarding the plagues of Rev 16, Ellen White wrote: These plagues are not universal, or the inhabitants of the earth would be wholly cut off. Yet they will be the most awful scourges that have ever been known to mortals. All the judgments upon men, prior to the close of probation, have been mingled with mercy. The pleading blood of Christ has shielded the sinner from receiving the full measure of his guilt; but in the final judgment, wrath is poured out unmixed with mercy. {GC 628.2}

3. Do you think these plagues are being poured out now? Or, do you think they will be poured out after probation closes?

God executes justice and judgment when it is eternally beneficial. The plagues of Egypt is an example.

The principles of kindness, mercy, and love, taught and exemplified by our Saviour, are a transcript of the will and character of God. . . . God executes justice upon the wicked, for the good of the universe, and even for the good of those upon whom His judgments are visited. {FLB 176.6}

In no kingdom or government is it left to the lawbreakers to say what punishment is to be executed against those who have broken the law. All we have, all the bounties of His grace which we possess, we owe to God. The aggravating character of sin against such a God cannot be estimated any more than the heavens can be measured with a span. God is a moral governor as well as a Father. He is the Lawgiver. He makes and executes His laws. Law that has no penalty is of no force. {LDE 241.1}

The ones teresa has quoted have expressed this concept, IMO.



Same answer. 14 MR 3 is another one.



Look at GC 36 and following. She discusses the same principle there. That is, she compares how the destruction of Jerusalem is a type of the destruction that will occur in the end right before Christ's coming. The same principles are at work.



Mark discussed this in his thread on this subject. I think the ideas he shared make sense. I also quoted from Fifield at length on the subject. I can re-quote that if you'd like.

Yes, I know you believe a. I believe b. I don't believe when Ellen White said that force is not a principle of God's government, that compelling force is only to be found in Satan's kingdom that she meant "generally speaking." I think your understanding of the plagues can only be understood as "compelling force."

Also, I don't know what you'd do with the statement that all that we can know of God was revealed by the life and character of His Son while here with us in the flesh. Where in Christ's life and character do we see anything like what your view of the plagues entails?

Simply put, I don't see your view of God revealed by Christ.

in the light of history how could it possibly be faulty?

we have to remember that as we leave God we are open to all kinds of delusions. so it is quite easy to reason that if God "did it", then that must be ok.

or perhaps i understand the point being made because that is the mentality that was handed me, until i had asked God to heal me of all tradition.