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Re: plagues
[Re: Mountain Man]
#116214
07/18/09 02:27 AM
07/18/09 02:27 AM
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OP
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It makes more sense to me to determine who will cause the death and destruction symbolized by the plagues. Once I know who the "who" is, then I will be ready to study what each one of the plagues symbolize and how they will be fulfilled. you have the right to approach the subject however you wish. i wish to study the plagues individually and go from there. if you do not wish to do so please state that. but i will not be answering any more interrogations. if you have a view as to what is posted please state it. that leaves me free to agree or disagree and present how i see it. i believe that is the meaning of discussions. but the interrogations that go on make me feel as if i have been accused of some crime and am in a police station. except that my experience with the police has been much nicer. attempts to insult me for stating this position will just be ignored.
Psa 64:5 ...an evil matter: they commune of laying snares privily; they say, Who shall see them?
Psa 7:14 Behold, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood. 15 He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made. 16 His mischief (and his violent dealing) shall return upon his own head.
Psa 7:17 I will praise the LORD according to his righteousness: and will sing praise to the name of the LORD most high.
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Re: plagues
[Re: Mountain Man]
#116215
07/18/09 02:32 AM
07/18/09 02:32 AM
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OP
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MM:You highlighted the phrase "by sending evil angels among them" so I take it you're especially interested in this aspect of Psalms 78. If so, here's what Matthew Henry, the commentator, wrote about it: Matthew Henry is a 5 point Calvinist. I'm not sure if you know what it means, but, in simple terms, he's as strong a Calvinist as one can be (I can explain 5 point Calvinist in more detail, if you prefer). 5 point Calvinism is about as far from Adventism as one can get. Do you disagree with what he wrote about Ps 78:49? If so, why? im not answering any more interrogations. you may state why you are in agreement with him if you wish.
Psa 64:5 ...an evil matter: they commune of laying snares privily; they say, Who shall see them?
Psa 7:14 Behold, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood. 15 He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made. 16 His mischief (and his violent dealing) shall return upon his own head.
Psa 7:17 I will praise the LORD according to his righteousness: and will sing praise to the name of the LORD most high.
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Re: plagues
[Re: Mountain Man]
#116216
07/18/09 02:39 AM
07/18/09 02:39 AM
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t: if you cannot answer this why not just admit it? why ignore it as if it were not posted? M: I don’t know how I overlooked this post. I’m terribly sorry. I’m not sure I understand what you’re saying or suggesting. Are you saying the five men bearing slaughtering weapons in Eze 9 symbolize the wicked that will turn upon the false shepherds during the end of the outpouring of the plagues? That is, are you suggesting the following scene will fulfill Eze 9: The people see that they have been deluded. They accuse one another of having led them to destruction; but all unite in heaping their bitterest condemnation upon the ministers. Unfaithful pastors have prophesied smooth things; they have led their hearers to make void the law of God and to persecute those who would keep it holy. Now, in their despair, these teachers confess before the world their work of deception. The multitudes are filled with fury. "We are lost!" they cry, "and you are the cause of our ruin;" and they turn upon the false shepherds. The very ones that once admired them most will pronounce the most dreadful curses upon them. The very hands that once crowned them with laurels will be raised for their destruction. The swords which were to slay God's people are now employed to destroy their enemies. Everywhere there is strife and bloodshed. {GC 655.4} M: If so, then what about the following passages? How do they fit this point of view? The mark of deliverance has been set upon those "that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done." Now the angel of death goes forth, represented in Ezekiel's vision by the men with the slaughtering weapons, to whom the command is given: "Slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children, and women: but come not near any man upon whom is the mark; and begin at My sanctuary." Says the prophet: "They began at the ancient men which were before the house." Ezekiel 9:1-6. The work of destruction begins among those who have professed to be the spiritual guardians of the people. The false watchmen are the first to fall. There are none to pity or to spare. Men, women, maidens, and little children perish together. {GC 656.2}
"The Lord cometh out of His place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain." Isaiah 26:21. "And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth. And it shall come to pass in that day, that a great tumult from the Lord shall be among them; and they shall lay hold everyone on the hand of his neighbor, and his hand shall rise up against the hand of his neighbor." Zechariah 14:12, 13. In the mad strife of their own fierce passions, and by the awful outpouring of God's unmingled wrath, fall the wicked inhabitants of the earth--priests, rulers, and people, rich and poor, high and low. "And the slain of the Lord shall be at that day from one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth: they shall not be lamented, neither gathered, nor buried." Jeremiah 25:33. {GC 656.3}
The command is, "Slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children, and women: but come not near any man upon whom is the mark; and begin at My sanctuary. Then they began at the ancient men which were before the house." Saith God. "I will recompense their way upon their head." {TM 431.3}
The words will soon be spoken, "Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth." One of the ministers of vengeance declares. "And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because Thou hast judged thus." These heavenly beings, in executing the mandate of God, ask no questions, but do as they are bid. Jehovah of hosts, the Lord God Almighty, the just, the true, and the holy, has given them their work to do. With unswerving fidelity they go forth panoplied in pure white linen, having their breasts girded with golden girdles. And when their task is done, when the last vial of God's wrath is poured out, they return and lay their emptied vials at the feet of the Lord. {TM 432.1} M: Ellen White wrote “[1] In the mad strife of their own fierce passions, and [2] by the awful outpouring of God's unmingled wrath, fall the wicked inhabitants of the earth--priests, rulers, and people, rich and poor, high and low.” 1. Does your view account for both of the components I enumerated above? 2. Does your view apply the words and works underlined above to the wicked that turn upon the false shepherds with swords? 3. Are there places in the Bible or the SOP where such words and works are applied to evil men or evil angels? 4. Are there places in the Bible or the SOP where such words and works refer to holy angels causing the kind of death and destruction described above whereas in reality it was evil men or evil angels that caused it to happen? PS - Please understand that I'm just asking questions that came to mind in light of what you wrote. I am NOT saying they reflect anything you think or believe. t: i didnt say anything. i merely put the statements ellen white gave that addressed the issue. i have to assume you do not believe they are applicable but it hasnt been stated why. it is quite easy to check the context and see if i have misapplied them. . . instead of interrogating just say how you view them. if you disagree with ellen white appears to be saying state why. Fair enough. I do not believe the passage you posted is a fulfillment of Eze 9. Not saying you do. Instead, I believe the holy angels will fulfill it. Ellen White wrote “[1] In the mad strife of their own fierce passions, and [2] by the awful outpouring of God's unmingled wrath, fall the wicked inhabitants of the earth--priests, rulers, and people, rich and poor, high and low.” I believe that both will be fulfilled but that both are NOT describing the same thing. The first one describes what will happen as the second one is happening. Again, the second one describes the fulfillment of Eze 9 and the plagues of Rev 16. Have you arrived at a conclusion yet?
Last edited by Mountain Man; 07/18/09 02:45 AM.
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Re: plagues
[Re: Mountain Man]
#116217
07/18/09 02:42 AM
07/18/09 02:42 AM
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SDA Charter Member Active Member 2019
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
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but the interrogations that go on make me feel as if i have been accused of some crime and am in a police station. except that my experience with the police has been much nicer. attempts to insult me for stating this position will just be ignored. Wow!
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Re: plagues
[Re: kland]
#116218
07/18/09 02:42 AM
07/18/09 02:42 AM
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SDA Active Member 2023
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Would it be fair to make a comparison with a substitute statement?
It is wrong to believe that exactly the same rules apply to Hitler and his subjects.
(and I don't know if "receiving worship" would be considered a rule in this case) You have lost the vast distinction between the Creator and the creature. And to make to make Hitler's relationship to his subjects analogous to God's relationship to His subjects is mind-boggling. Furthermore, to disallow every instance that does not fit into your paradigm as irrelevant makes it very easy to accept any paradigm that suits your fancy. The trick is to find a paradigm that fits all the facts. I think you said, no. Is it foolish to use a variable without initializing it first? You better believe it. I'll try to be more obvious for you next time. I was trying to be as understanding with you as I am trying with MM. A simple yes or no was what was expected -- not a commentary assumption of whether my comparison was stupid or not. You can consider this your lucky day. Not only did you get what you expected, but you also got a commentary on a "stupid comparison" for free. I'll also make the same offer to any who would think to compare God melting the earth with fervent heat to Osama bin Laden burning the Twin Towers. Something tells me that the terms: abstraction, polymorphism, and inheritance have not much relevance to you? (knowing the answer is important to see why the different perspectives) I've heard of those terms before. Where we seem to disagree is that it looks like you believe variable God and variable Hitler have the same methods. You might even believe that they are variables of the same class, as evidenced by your statement, "What is good for the goose is good for the gander." But you apply the inheritance too vigorously. Certainly, God and Hitler share some characteristics/methods, such as being moral agents and having subjects. But God has characteristics/methods that Hitler does not share, and vice versa. For example, the scope of God.method and Hitler.method are very different. I think we also disagree on the polymorphism involved in the method God.love. I believe God.love includes justice as much as it does mercy, judgment as well as forgiveness. Your version of God.love doesn't seem to have the same methods as mine. Hopefully, you can see your objection to the comparison the problem of why there is a communication problem. No. The problem is that your assumptions are not reliable.
By God's grace, Arnold
There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
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Re: plagues
[Re: asygo]
#116219
07/18/09 02:50 AM
07/18/09 02:50 AM
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OP
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Do you agree that a holy angel sent by God caused Herod great agony of mind and body? forgive me for jumping in yet again....but i dont remember where we are told what kind of "stroke" the angel gave. it seems our imagination, based on our experiences and mindset is coming up with our own picture of exactly what that means.
Psa 64:5 ...an evil matter: they commune of laying snares privily; they say, Who shall see them?
Psa 7:14 Behold, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood. 15 He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made. 16 His mischief (and his violent dealing) shall return upon his own head.
Psa 7:17 I will praise the LORD according to his righteousness: and will sing praise to the name of the LORD most high.
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Re: plagues
[Re: teresaq]
#116220
07/18/09 02:54 AM
07/18/09 02:54 AM
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instead of interrogating just say how you view them. if you disagree with ellen white appears to be saying state why. OK, no more "interrogations"/questions for you. Just plain, unvarnished statements. Fair enough? These quotes are not talking about the same "destroying angel." over and over, when doing a search on "destroying angel", we get: ... When the destroying angel was to pass through Egypt, to destroy the first-born of man and beast... That's the destroying angel of Exodus. and this says how it will happen: ...the rage of the wicked multitude was turned upon each other. That's the destroying angel of Ezekiel. But it is clear that "the wicked multitude" did not kill the firstborns of Egypt. Therefore, these quotes do not refer to the same thing.
By God's grace, Arnold
There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
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Re: plagues
[Re: teresaq]
#116221
07/18/09 02:57 AM
07/18/09 02:57 AM
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SDA Active Member 2023
5500+ Member
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,583
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Do you agree that a holy angel sent by God caused Herod great agony of mind and body? forgive me for jumping in yet again....but i dont remember where we are told what kind of "stroke" the angel gave. it seems our imagination, based on our experiences and mindset is coming up with our own picture of exactly what that means. I don't think we need to know what kind of "stroke" this was. But it's clear to me that it came from the angel, as commanded by God, and resulted in great agony and death for Herod. The same angel who had come from the royal courts to rescue Peter, had been the messenger of wrath and judgment to Herod. The angel smote Peter to arouse him from slumber; it was with a different stroke that he smote the wicked king, laying low his pride and bringing upon him the punishment of the Almighty. Herod died in great agony of mind and body, under the retributive judgment of God. {AA 152.1}
By God's grace, Arnold
There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
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Re: plagues
[Re: asygo]
#116222
07/18/09 02:59 AM
07/18/09 02:59 AM
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SDA Charter Member Active Member 2019
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"...the rage of the wicked multitude was turned upon each other."
That's the destroying angel of Ezekiel. I disagree. Where in the Bible or the SOP is this view advocated? Which is which in the following passage: “[1] In the mad strife of their own fierce passions, and [2] by the awful outpouring of God's unmingled wrath, fall the wicked inhabitants of the earth--priests, rulers, and people, rich and poor, high and low.”
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Re: plagues
[Re: Mountain Man]
#116223
07/18/09 03:04 AM
07/18/09 03:04 AM
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SDA Charter Member Active Member 2019
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Joined: Oct 2000
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Arnold, consider this passage:
When the destroying angel was about to pass through the land of Egypt and smite the first-born of both man and beast, the Israelites were directed to bring their children into the house with them and to strike the doorpost with blood; and none were to go out of the house, for all that were found among the Egyptians would be destroyed with them. We should take this lesson to ourselves. Again the destroying angel is to pass through the land. There is to be a mark placed upon God's people, and that mark is the keeping of His holy Sabbath. {HP 150.4}
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