I disagree.

im not answering any more interrogations. you may state why you are in agreement with him if you wish.

A:Let me take this opportunity to point this out as one instance where you apply universally that which was meant by the author to be applied in a limited sense. I believe you do the same with some of your favorite SOP quotes, e.g. God doesn't use force, everything we can know of God was displayed during Christ's life.

While thinking about this some more, it occurred to me that there's a rather simply way to explain the differences of opinion here. There are two sets of statements in the SOP. On the one hand, the SOP says things like:

a.Force is not a principle of God's government. Compelling force is to be found only in Satan's government.
b.All that man can know of God was revealed in the life and character of His Son while here in the flesh.

On the other hand, there are scores of statements where it appears that God is acting violently and using force. So how is this apparent contradiction to be resolved?

It appears to me there are two ways to go about this. One way is to particularize the above statements, a and b. So that rather than describing how God always works, they describe how God generally works. So, for example, a. becomes:

a.Generally speaking, God does not use force or act violently. But there are some exceptions.

Now we can harmonize concept a. with statements where God acts violently and uses force by simply considering these statements to be exceptions.

I don't know how to particularize b, but I'm sure one could attempt to do so in a way similar to a.

God could have destroyed Satan and his sympathizers as easily as one can cast a pebble to the earth; but He did not do this. Rebellion was not to be overcome by force. Compelling power is found only under Satan's government. The Lord's principles are not of this order. His authority rests upon goodness, mercy, and love; and the presentation of these principles is the means to be used. God's government is moral, and truth and love are to be the prevailing power. (DA 759)

you apply universally that which was meant by the author to be applied in a limited sense. I believe you do the same with some of your favorite SOP quotes, e.g. God doesn't use force

Compelling power is found only under Satan's government. The Lord's principles are not of this order.

The earnest prayers of this faithful few will not be in vain. When the Lord comes forth as an avenger, He will also come as a protector of all those who have preserved the faith in its purity and kept themselves unspotted from the world. It is at this time that God has promised to avenge His own elect which cry day and night unto Him, though He bear long with them. {5T 210.1}

The command is: "Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof." These sighing, crying ones had been holding forth the words of life; they had reproved, counseled, and entreated. Some who had been dishonoring God repented and humbled their hearts before Him. But the glory of the Lord had departed from Israel; although many still continued the forms of religion, His power and presence were lacking. {5T 210.2}

In the time when His wrath shall go forth in judgments, these humble, devoted followers of Christ will be distinguished from the rest of the world by their soul anguish, which is expressed in lamentation and weeping, reproofs and warnings. While others try to throw a cloak over the existing evil, and excuse the great wickedness everywhere prevalent, those who have a zeal for God's honor and a love for souls will not hold their peace to obtain favor of any. Their righteous souls are vexed day by day with the unholy works and conversation of the unrighteous. They are powerless to stop the rushing torrent of iniquity, and hence they are filled with grief and alarm. They mourn before God to see religion despised in the very homes of those who have had great light. They lament and afflict their souls because pride, avarice, selfishness, and deception of almost every kind are in the church. The Spirit of God, which prompts to reproof, is trampled underfoot, while the servants of Satan triumph. God is dishonored, the truth made of none effect. {5T 210.3}

The class who do not feel grieved over their own spiritual declension, nor mourn over the sins of others, will be left without the seal of God. The Lord commissions His messengers, the men with slaughtering weapons in their hands: "Go ye after him through the city, and smite: let not your eye spare, neither have ye pity: slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children, and women: but come not near any man upon whom is the mark; and begin at My sanctuary. Then they began at the ancient men which were before the house." {5T 211.1}

Here we see that the church--the Lord's sanctuary--was the first to feel the stroke of the wrath of God. The ancient men, those to whom God had given great light and who had stood as guardians of the spiritual interests of the people, had betrayed their trust. They had taken the position that we need not look for miracles and the marked manifestation of God's power as in former days. Times have changed. These words strengthen their unbelief, and they say: The Lord will not do good, neither will He do evil. He is too merciful to visit His people in judgment. Thus "Peace and safety" is the cry from men who will never again lift up their voice like a trumpet to show God's people their transgressions and the house of Jacob their sins. These dumb dogs that would not bark are the ones who feel the just vengeance of an offended God. Men, maidens, and little children all perish together. {5T 211.2}

The abominations for which the faithful ones were sighing and crying were all that could be discerned by finite eyes, but by far the worst sins, those which provoked the jealousy of the pure and holy God, were unrevealed. The great Searcher of hearts knoweth every sin committed in secret by the workers of iniquity. These persons come to feel secure in their deceptions and, because of His long-suffering, say that the Lord seeth not, and then act as though He had forsaken the earth. But He will detect their hypocrisy and will open before others those sins which they were so careful to hide. {5T 211.3}

No superiority of rank, dignity, or worldly wisdom, no position in sacred office, will preserve men from sacrificing principle when left to their own deceitful hearts. Those who have been regarded as worthy and righteous prove to be ring-leaders in apostasy and examples in indifference and in the abuse of God's mercies. Their wicked course He will tolerate no longer, and in His wrath He deals with them without mercy. {5T 212.1}

It is with reluctance that the Lord withdraws His presence from those who have been blessed with great light and who have felt the power of the word in ministering to others. They were once His faithful servants, favored with His presence and guidance; but they departed from Him and led others into error, and therefore are brought under the divine displeasure. {5T 212.2}

The day of God's vengeance is just upon us. The seal of God will be placed upon the foreheads of those only who sigh and cry for the abominations done in the land. Those who link in sympathy with the world are eating and drinking with the drunken and will surely be destroyed with the workers of iniquity. "The eyes of the Lord are over the righteous, and His ears are open unto their prayers: but the face of the Lord is against them that do evil." {5T 212.3}

Our own course of action will determine whether we shall receive the seal of the living God or be cut down by the destroying weapons. Already a few drops of God's wrath have fallen upon the earth; but when the seven last plagues shall be poured out without mixture into the cup of His indignation, then it will be forever too late to repent and find shelter. No atoning blood will then wash away the stains of sin. {5T 212.4}

"And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, everyone that shall be found written in the book." When this time of trouble comes, every case is decided; there is no longer probation, no longer mercy for the impenitent. The seal of the living God is upon His people. This small remnant, unable to defend themselves in the deadly conflict with the powers of earth that are marshaled by the dragon host, make God their defense. The decree has been passed by the highest earthly authority that they shall worship the beast and receive his mark under pain of persecution and death. May God help His people now, for what can they then do in such a fearful conflict without His assistance! {5T 212.5}

T:It appears to me from your question:

A:Was the angel who rescued Peter the same angel who caused "great agony of mind and body" to Herod? The answer is clearly Yes.

Was he acting in harmony or in contradiction to God's will when he smote Herod? Yes or No? The answer to that will help determine if it's OK to cause others excruciating pain if it's eternally beneficial.

T:that you are agreeing with me in stating my opinion that you believe that angels do the same thing you believe God does, which is to cause pain if its eternally beneficial.

So this principle is evidently NOT limited only to God. Does it apply to human beings?

A:As a cousin of mine says, "You're jumping before you leap." Let's settle the clear matters first before we get into muddier waters.

Do you agree that a holy angel sent by God caused Herod great agony of mind and body?

If we can't settle that, we can't proceed, for the issue would become one of epistemology.

"...the rage of the wicked multitude was turned upon each other."

A: That's the destroying angel of Ezekiel.

M: I disagree.

A: I believe that supernatural entities will be involved. But I think tq was saying that the wicked multitude IS the destroying angel. We could ask her. Do you want to be the good cop or the bad cop? I'll bring the halogen lamp. Sorry, couldn't resist.

my turn to apologize. this was addressed to tom and i was quickly reading through the posts. i do apologize for not being more careful.

I’m not sure I understand what you’re saying or suggesting. Are you saying the five men bearing slaughtering weapons in Eze 9 symbolize the wicked that will turn upon the false shepherds during the end of the outpouring of the plagues? That is, are you suggesting the following scene will fulfill Eze 9:


M: If so, then what about the following passages? How do they fit this point of view?


t: i didnt say anything. i merely put the statements ellen white gave that addressed the issue. i have to assume you do not believe they are applicable but it hasnt been stated why. it is quite easy to check the context and see if i have misapplied them. . . instead of interrogating just say how you view them. if you disagree with ellen white appears to be saying state why.

Have you arrived at a conclusion yet?

T:MM, as you've been asking quite a few questions, please permit me to ask one.

Where in Christ's human life did He act or teach principles which are in harmony with how you view the plagues playing out?

M:Well, first of all, the prophecies of the book of Revelation are a revelation of Jesus Christ. The plagues are, therefore, a revelation of what Jesus will do as He is returning to earth to destroy the wicked and to redeem the righteous.

Jesus addressed some of these things, while He was here, in Matthew 24 and similar chapters in the NT. Obviously, Jesus did not demonstrate commanding holy angels to pour out plagues while He was here in the flesh. Nor did He command people to participate in announcing the out pouring of plagues like in the case of Moses.