Either its possible to perfectly keep the law or its not.

The law which Christ gave from the mount, and which he exemplified in his sinless life, is far-reaching in its character. It condemns every evil action, and demands perfect obedience. Those who truly follow Christ will keep God's commandments as he kept them. If they sincerely accept him as their personal Saviour, they will be actuated by an earnest desire to fulfil their duty to God, and to represent him in character. And if the law were perfectly obeyed, the earth would not now be corrupted under the inhabitants thereof. Oppression and injustice would not exist. Love, harmony, and joy would be seen. The power of Christianity would be revealed in the churches, and the world would have no cause to charge the followers of Christ with inconsistency. The converting power of the Holy Spirit would be felt, and thousands would be added to the church of such as should be saved. (ST 3/4/97)

Either its possible to perfectly keep the law or its not. I think we should try to keep the "law" all the while realizing that our fallen human natures will not allow us to. I find is strange that people like you believe that its possible yet can't do it yourself. Start being perfect including your thoughts and let me know how that works for you and then I might believe its possible. Until then I go with Paul who expresses his struggles even after conversion. Even if it was possible I think you would be spending so much time looking at your self and your actions you would loose sight of whats important which is grace.

Either its possible to perfectly keep the law or its not.

I think we should try to keep the "law" all the while realizing that our fallen human natures will not allow us to.

I find is strange that people like you believe that its possible yet can't do it yourself.

Start being perfect including your thoughts and let me know how that works for you and then I might believe its possible.

Until then I go with Paul who expresses his struggles even after conversion.

Even if it was possible I think you would be spending so much time looking at your self and your actions you would loose sight of whats important which is grace.

As an aside, this is quite a nice statement, I think. It brings out the purpose of the law in a positive way, making clear that things like injustice wouldn't exist without the law. If we say the law cannot be kept, that seems tantamount to saying that we must be unjust. Can that be right?

I assume you're referring to Romans 7:13-25. As you know, not everyone believes Paul was referring to sinning. There are those who believe he was referring to the clamorings of sinful flesh rather than to actually sinning. Which, by the way, is the only thing "sinful flesh" can "do" (Rom 7), that is, the only thing it can "do" is tempt us to indulge our innocent and legitimate needs in sinful ways.

Ye know how through infirmity of the flesh I preached the gospel unto you at the first. (Galatians 4:13, KJV)

And my temptation which was in my flesh ye despised not, nor rejected; but received me as an angel of God, even as Christ Jesus. (Galatians 4:14, KJV)

Where is then the blessedness ye spake of? for I bear you record, that, if it had been possible, ye would have plucked out your own eyes, and have given them to me. (Galatians 4:15, KJV)

GC, are you implying Paul's physical problem had something to do with what he wrote in Romans 7:13-25? If so, how and why?

And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure. (2 Corinthians 12:7, KJV)

For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me. (2 Corinthians 12:8, KJV)

And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. (2 Corinthians 12:9, KJV)

Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong. (2 Corinthians 12:10, KJV)

I've heard that Paul referred to a problem with his eyesight. Whether or not he had lingering damage to his eyes from his encounter with Jesus on the road to Damascus I know not. But in his later years, he appears to have struggled with his eyesight, perhaps from cataracts.

He refers to his large handwriting when writing to the Galatians:

"Ye see how large a letter I have written unto you with mine own hand." (Galatians 6:11, KJV)

"See what large letters I use as I write to you with my own hand!" (Galatians 6:11, NIV)

(I do not know which translation here is more accurate, but Galatians is not one of Paul's larger letters.)


In that passage to the Galatians, Paul seems clear that his eyes were the source of his "temptation." Paul acknowledges that some of the Galatians would have been willing to give him their own eyes were such possible.

I assume you're referring to Romans 7:13-25. As you know, not everyone believes Paul was referring to sinning. There are those who believe he was referring to the clamorings of sinful flesh rather than to actually sinning. Which, by the way, is the only thing "sinful flesh" can "do" (Rom 7), that is, the only thing it can "do" is tempt us to indulge our innocent and legitimate needs in sinful ways.

Either its possible to perfectly keep the law or its not. I think we should try to keep the "law" all the while realizing that our fallen human natures will not allow us to.

I find is strange that people like you believe that its possible yet can't do it yourself.

Start being perfect including your thoughts and let me know how that works for you and then I might believe its possible.

Until then I go with Paul who expresses his struggles even after conversion.

Even if it was possible I think you would be spending so much time looking at your self and your actions you would loose sight of whats important which is grace.

I assume you're referring to Romans 7:13-25. As you know, not everyone believes Paul was referring to sinning. There are those who believe he was referring to the clamorings of sinful flesh rather than to actually sinning. Which, by the way, is the only thing "sinful flesh" can "do" (Rom 7), that is, the only thing it can "do" is tempt us to indulge our innocent and legitimate needs in sinful ways.

And I think Paul was clear that he stumbled and fell."

Verse 19 basically says he does evil even though he wishes not to.

The words, "I keep under my body," literally mean to beat back by severe discipline the desires, impulses, and passions. {AA 314.1}

"I keep under my body," the apostle says. This means literally to beat back its desires and impulses and passions by severe discipline, even as did those competing for an earthly prize (MS 93, 1899). {6BC 1089.7}

Paul was ever on the watch lest evil propensities should get the better of him. He guarded well his appetites and passions and evil propensities (Letter 27, 1906). {6BC 1089.8}

Wrestling with appetite and passion unaided by divine power will be unsuccessful; but make Christ your stronghold, and the language of your soul will be, "In all these things we are more than conquerors through Him that loved us." Said the apostle Paul, "I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway." {MM 143.5}

I think these two pages illustrate why this weeks study is so important, especially among SDA. Here we have a study and thus every incentive to follow up on the 'new commandment' of Johns gospel and his first letter. But the discussion thus far gets bogged down in the mire of the old commandments yet again. Last week I was challenged as having an erring focus when trying to look at the practical side, the new commandment side, instead of only looking at the ideal of sinless perfection. The same has happened here. Eyes are so firmly set on the questions of sinless living and perfect lawkeeping that the whole point of this entire weeks study gets lost in the fray. If it were to turn out that the ideal can only be reached through the practical, how many who who are so concerned with the ideal that they for all apparence have no time for the practical will in the end be bitterly dissapointed.

Daryl, when you lead this weeks study, it will in my oppinion be your chief duty to keep your group focused on what is acctually this weeks theme. These other themes discussed above have most likely been discussed and will no doubt be discussed agian many times in the future. This weeks study does propably not share the same fate and would therefore need all help you can give it.

Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself: I am the LORD. (Leviticus 19:18, KJV)

And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might. (Deuteronomy 6:5, KJV)

Brethren, God has most precious light for His people. I call it not new light; but O, it is strangely new to many. Jesus said to His disciples, "A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you." This was really an old commandment, which had been given in the Old Testament scriptures, but it had been lost. It had not been practiced. The command that they should love one another as Christ had loved them was indeed new to the disciples. (1888 Mat. 140)

31Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

32Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:

33But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. (Jer. 31)

The terms of the "old covenant" were, Obey and live: "If a man do, he shall even live in them" (Ezekiel 20:11; Leviticus 18:5); but "cursed be he that confirmeth not all the words of this law to do them." Deuteronomy 27:26. The "new covenant" was established upon "better promises"--the promise of forgiveness of sins and of the grace of God to renew the heart and bring it into harmony with the principles of God's law. "This shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts . . . . I will forgive their iniquity, and will remember their sin no more." Jeremiah 31:33, 34.

The same law that was engraved upon the tables of stone is written by the Holy Spirit upon the tables of the heart. Instead of going about to establish our own righteousness we accept the righteousness of Christ.(PP 372)

I knew there was some reason I was connecting these two things together! The quote says it all, I think. God sent "new light" that was light which had been lost sight of.

As this is the crux of the error promoted in the NIV, I will do my very best, I promise, to post on this issue in the Bible versions thread before the end of this week. (This discussion is motivating me.) The modern Bibles have promoted the concept that man is powerless to cease sinning. The KJV, however, does not.

If Christ lived a perfect life as our example, why should we not benefit thereby? Why should we say He was NOT our example? Courage, my brother, take courage! The Canaan land is ours for the taking, with God on our side.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

It would be like "A fresh commandment I give unto you, fresh out of the oven," which conveys the idea of a new idea, a new thought.
...

I knew there was some reason I was connecting these two things together! The quote says it all, I think. God sent "new light" that was light which had been lost sight of.

Regarding the Old and the New Covenants, that's a different story altogether, as these are two completely different things.
...
However, while the New Covenant is very different from the Old Covenant, the point about "new" here referring to something which had already existed before is certainly true, as the "New Covenant" is the same as the "Everlasting Covenant" or "Abrahamic Covenant."

V: Here we have a study and thus every incentive to follow up on the 'new commandment' of Johns gospel and his first letter. But the discussion thus far gets bogged down in the mire of the old commandments yet again. Last week I was challenged as having an erring focus when trying to look at the practical side, the new commandment side, instead of only looking at the ideal of sinless perfection.

M: Thomas, how are the new and old commandments different? Does one contradict the other? Or, do they envision and enjoin the same thing?

V: Seing that this is the thread for the SS lesson, I have taken inspiration from there, the wednesday page to be more specific. It referes to Johns first letter and to Johns gospel. There Jesus says:

34 A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; as I have loved you, that you also love one another.

And John writes:

22 And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight. 23 And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment.

and

20 If someone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen, how can he love God whom he has not seen? 21 And this commandment we have from Him: that he who loves God must love his brother also.

in the third and fourth chapters respectively.

The "new commandment" was not really new, since Jesus gave it earlier in His ministry, and He gave it much earlier than that through Moses. But it seemed new because the people had misunderstood the "old" commandments.

The attribute that Christ appreciates most in man is charity (love) out of a pure heart. This is the fruit borne upon the Christian tree. "Every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God" (1 John 4:7). The Lord Jesus has said, "A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another" (John 13:34, 35). {TDG 365.1}

When enshrouded in the cloudy pillar He spake to the children of Israel through Moses: "Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbour, and not suffer sin upon him. Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the Lord" (Lev. 19:17, 18). "These things I command you, that ye love one another" (John 15:17). {TDG 365.2}

Why was this called "a new commandment"? The disciples had not loved one another as Christ had loved them. They had not yet seen the fullness of the love that He was to reveal in man's behalf. They were yet to see Him dying on the cross for their sins. Through His life and death they were to receive a new conception of love. The command to "love one another" was to gain a new meaning in the light of His self-sacrifice. In the light shining from the cross of Calvary they were to read the meaning of the words, "As I have loved you, that ye also love one another" (RH June 30, 1910). {5BC 1140.1}

"Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbor as thyself." Luke 10:27. Just before He left His disciples to return to heaven, Christ declared: "A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another." Here we see the standard lifted higher and still higher. "By this shall all men know that ye are My disciples, if ye have love one to another." John 13:34, 35. The disciples could not then comprehend Christ's words; but after His crucifixion, resurrection, and ascension they understood His love as never before. They had seen it expressed in His suffering in the garden, in the judgment hall, and in His death on the cross of Calvary. {8T 164.3}

In this last meeting with His disciples, the great desire which Christ expressed for them was that they might love one another as He had loved them. Again and again He spoke of this. "These things I command you," He said repeatedly, "that ye love one another." His very first injunction when alone with them in the upper chamber was, "A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another." To the disciples this commandment was new; for they had not loved one another as Christ had loved them. He saw that new ideas and impulses must control them; that new principles must be practiced by them; through His life and death they were to receive a new conception of love. The command to love one another had a new meaning in the light of His self-sacrifice. The whole work of grace is one continual service of love, of self-denying, self-sacrificing effort. During every hour of Christ's sojourn upon the earth, the love of God was flowing from Him in irrepressible streams. All who are imbued with His Spirit will love as He loved. The very principle that actuated Christ will actuate them in all their dealing one with another. {DA 677.2}

A: What we need to focus on is walking in the light as He is in the light, then His blood cleanses from all unrighteousness. It's impossible to walk with Jesus and be unloving at the same time.

"A new commandment I give unto you," Christ said, "That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another." John 13:34. What a wonderful statement; but, oh, how poorly practiced! In the church of God today brotherly love is sadly lacking. Many who profess to love the Saviour do not love one another. Unbelievers are watching to see if the faith of professed Christians is exerting a sanctifying influence upon their lives; and they are quick to discern the defects in character, the inconsistencies in action. Let Christians not make it possible for the enemy to point to them and say, Behold how these people, standing under the banner of Christ, hate one another. Christians are all members of one family, all children of the same heavenly Father, with the same blessed hope of immortality. Very close and tender should be the tie that binds them together. {AA 550.1}

There are souls who are starving for sympathy, starving for the bread of life; but they have no confidence to make known their great need. Those who bear the responsibilities in connection with the work of God should understand that they are under the most solemn obligation to help these souls; and they would be prepared to help them, if they themselves had retained the soft, subduing influence of the love of Christ. Do these poor souls, ready to die, look to them for help? No; they did this until they could have no hope of help from that quarter. They see not a hand stretched out to save. {TM 353.1}

The matter has been presented to me thus: A drowning man, vainly struggling with the waves, discovers a boat, and with his last remaining strength succeeds in reaching it, and lays hold upon its side. In his weakness he cannot speak, but the agony upon his face would excite pity in any heart that was touched with human tenderness. But do the occupants of the boat stretch out their hands to lift him in? No! All heaven looks on as these men beat off the feeble, clinging hands, and a suffering fellow being sinks beneath the waves, to rise no more. This scene has been enacted over and over again. It has been witnessed by One who gave His life for the ransom of just such souls. The Lord has reached down His own hand to save. The Lord Himself has done the work which He left for man to do, in revealing the pity and compassion of Christ toward sinners. Jesus says, "A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another." Calvary reveals to every one of us the depths of that love. {TM 353.2}

There are souls in their darkness, full of remorse and pain and anguish, who still feel that God is just and good. The Lord is keeping alive the spark of hope in their hearts. The poor, darkened soul feels, If I could only appear before God, and plead my case, He would pity for Christ's sake, and this horrible fear and agony would be relieved. He has tried to speak to men, and has been rudely repulsed, reproved, taunted by his supposed friends. Sometimes the reproaches heaped upon his head have well-nigh destroyed the last spark of hope. The soul that is conscious of sincere and honest intentions finds he has less to fear from God than from men who have hearts of steel. The soul wrenched with human agony turns away from the misjudgment and condemnation of men who cannot read the heart, yet have taken it upon them to judge their fellowmen. He turns to One who is without a shadow of misapprehension, One who knows all the impulses of the heart, who is acquainted with all the circumstances of temptation. God knows every deed of the past life, and yet in consideration of all this, the troubled soul is ready to trust his case with God, knowing that He is a God of mercy and compassion. {TM 354.1}

We are finally free to be like Jesus. How sweet!

Thomas, I thought you would like the practical nature of the following passage:

Thomas, thank you for posting those passages. However, please explain how you think they address the questions I posted above. Thank you.

1 John
2:7 Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which ye have heard from the beginning.
2:8 Again, a new commandment I write unto you, which thing is true in him and in you: because the darkness is past, and the true light now shineth.

Also, what do you mean by “the mire of the old commandments” and “the ideal of sinless perfection”?

By "looking at the ideal of sinless perection" I mean that it is something that can never be achieved by your own effort or any effort that rests on a strive to achieve it.

I mean that it is a side effect of looking only to Jesus. Look at what He did and try to do likewise and you may at the end of your days find that your life was described by God as perfect.

Look to your everyday life and strive to lead a perfect life and you may find at the end of your days that you lived a life where you are described by God as a stranger and an impostor.

Arnold, do you agree with the idea that what made the commandment to live and love like God "new" is the unprecedented demonstration of love on the cross? I'm not comfortable with the suggestion that it only seemed "new" because it had been forgotten over time.

i hope you dont mind. it seemed to me the thought needed to stand alone to be seen clearly.

M: Arnold, do you agree with the idea that what made the commandment to live and love like God "new" is the unprecedented demonstration of love on the cross? I'm not comfortable with the suggestion that it only seemed "new" because it had been forgotten over time.

A: I'm not sure I agree with it. But since the "new" command was to love each other as Jesus loves us, if there was a new revelation regarding how much Jesus loves us, the extent of the command would have a "new" element. At this time, I would be comfortable either way.

T: If one says it was forgotten over time, that begs the question, "forgotten from when?" That is, when Jesus said to love others as He has loved us, when could this "new commandment" have been forgotten from? Or, to ask it another way, when did someone love as Jesus loved us?