MM, I have yet to find a reply to a complaint Teresa and I had. I tried to ask it in the nicest way and was looking forward to your reply. Perhaps it got buried and overlooked. I will following Tom's advice regarding me with James and just ask you rather than making conclusions:

Kland, the following passage and verses reflect what I had in mind:


By underlining certain parts above I am by no means disregarding the rest of it. I am simply pointing out that the Passover Feast celebrated life and death - the death of the Egyptians and the life of the Israelites.

i respect that that is how you read it. different points are noticed by different minds.

i notice that they are to celebrate their deliverance from slavery, which, unfortunately, took the death of the firstborn of the egyptians, a death that the israelites were also deserving of.

but even tho God had to take-or allow-such drastic measures, it is interesting that the israelites were to hold no "grudge" against the egyptians but were to remember that they had been taken in by them when they were in need. (the famine in jacobs and josephs time.)Deu 23:7... thou shalt not abhor an Egyptian; because thou wast a stranger in his land.

So, teresaq, what do you think about going through each of the ten plagues and state who caused it to happen and how? I'll go first. A prologue to my post:


I cannot imagine evil angels doing anything that would yield results such as these: "God would glorify His own name, that other nations might hear of His power and tremble at His mighty acts, and that His people might be led to turn from their idolatry and render Him pure worship."

1. Water to Blood
And the LORD spake unto Moses, Say unto Aaron, Take thy rod, and stretch out thine hand upon the waters of Egypt, upon their streams, upon their rivers, and upon their ponds, and upon all their pools of water, that they may become blood; and that there may be blood throughout all the land of Egypt, both in vessels of wood, and in vessels of stone.

M: God changed the water into blood. The laws of nature do not account for this miracle.

2. Frogs
And if thou refuse to let them go, behold, I will smite all thy borders with frogs: and the river shall bring forth frogs abundantly, which shall go up and come into thine house, and into thy bedchamber, and upon thy bed, and into the house of thy servants, and upon thy people, and into thine ovens, and into thy kneading troughs: and the frogs shall come up both on thee, and upon thy people, and upon all thy servants.

M: Either God or holy angels caused the frogs to disregard their fear of man and invade the land.

3. Lice
And the LORD said unto Moses, Say unto Aaron, Stretch out thy rod, and smite the dust of the land, that it may become lice throughout all the land of Egypt.

M: God changed dust into lice. The laws of nature do not account for this miracle.

4. Flies
Else, if thou wilt not let my people go, behold, I will send swarms of flies upon thee, and upon thy servants, and upon thy people, and into thy houses: and the houses of the Egyptians shall be full of swarms of flies, and also the ground whereon they are.

M: Either God or holy angels caused the flies to unnaturally swarm the land.

5. Livestock Diseased
Behold, the hand of the LORD is upon thy cattle which is in the field, upon the horses, upon the asses, upon the camels, upon the oxen, and upon the sheep: there shall be a very grievous murrain.

M: Either God or holy angels caused the animals to die of disease.

6. Boils
And the LORD said unto Moses and unto Aaron, Take to you handfuls of ashes of the furnace, and let Moses sprinkle it toward the heaven in the sight of Pharaoh. And it shall become small dust in all the land of Egypt, and shall be a boil breaking forth with blains upon man, and upon beast, throughout all the land of Egypt.

M: God caused the ash to cause boils.

7. Hail
Behold, to morrow about this time I will cause it to rain a very grievous hail, such as hath not been in Egypt since the foundation thereof even until now.

M: Either God or holy angels caused the hail.

8. Locusts
Else, if thou refuse to let my people go, behold, to morrow will I bring the locusts into thy coast: and they shall cover the face of the earth, that one cannot be able to see the earth: and they shall eat the residue of that which is escaped, which remaineth unto you from the hail, and shall eat every tree which groweth for you out of the field.

M: Either God or holy angels caused the locust to devour the trees.

9. Darkness
And the LORD said unto Moses, Stretch out thine hand toward heaven, that there may be darkness over the land of Egypt, even darkness which may be felt. And Moses stretched forth his hand toward heaven; and there was a thick darkness in all the land of Egypt three days.

M: Either God or holy angels caused the thick darkness.

10. Death of the Firstborn
And Moses said, Thus saith the LORD, About midnight will I go out into the midst of Egypt: and all the firstborn in the land of Egypt shall die, from the first born of Pharaoh that sitteth upon his throne, even unto the firstborn of the maidservant that is behind the mill; and all the firstborn of beasts.

M: A holy angel caused the first-born to die.

is that how people in the church study?

from #116360
i can send you a link, if you like, that will show you what i mean.

it might set your fears to rest, if you have them, that i have no "secret" agenda, but am honestly studying and searching.

Thank you for explaining why you made the previous statement. I don't know about you, but I am understanding more why there is such a communication barrier between us. Not saying I understand why, but that there is.

It appears to me, that if you should fall and get sand and rock embedded in your skin and then had it removed, that if someone should say: You would celebrate the burning sensation.

If someone should say: You would remember / mourn what you gave up.

I realize you said you were not disregarding the rest of the passage, but it seems like instead of celebrating the joy, you are celebrating the pain. Instead of remembering the main event, you are remembering the footnotes.

Go back and reread those passages you quoted and see if the death, the pain, is what is being requested to remember and celebrate or if there is something else that should be remembered and celebrated. Was it deliverance or was it the loss of meat and leeks (which was true and did happen on that day -- hmmm).

God withheld rain for 3.5 years. It resembles the "no food for 2 days" because it is very hard to grow food without rain. Especially if the drought lasts 3.5 years.

but food was available. no matter what famines there were/are there is always food available somewhere, and if it werent for evil men, could be had by those in need.

God withheld rain, but He didnt withhold food. in doing a search im hardput to find where God didnt provide food in times of famine, whether from war or because He had withheld rain, His blessing.

the only thing i can find is evil men withholding food, such as in the seiges of jerusalem. but even then if the people had surrendered as they had been told to do....

Oh, you thought I was going to prevent my son from eating? No. I would just withhold food. He would be free to go shopping, cook, beg, whatever he wanted to do. But being 8 years old, he might have some difficulty. But I would guess not as much difficulty as the Israelites would have had in asking for food from the Assyrians, Egyptians, Babylonians, etc.

But I think your point is that God was not responsible for any suffering in Israel, since there were so many good neighbors to get food from, so killing off the vegetation in Israel by a 3.5 year drought wasn't really a big deal. I suppose one could look at it that way, but it sounds a little ridiculous. But if I am ever tried for making my 8 year old son scavenge for food to keep from starving, I'll ask my lawyer to make sure you are on the jury.

BTW, if it wasn't for evil men, there would have been no drought in Israel. So I think God knew in advance that Israel would suffer through the drought, and not get any help from evil men. He wasn't caught by surprise that the Egyptians didn't come running with fruit baskets.

As you wish. MM's list seems a good place to start.

Anyway, for those who want to continue the errant sub-topic, I made a new thread: Does God sometimes cause pain? I'll be posting my replies on the topic in that thread. See y'all over there.