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Person of God and Spiritualism #117709
08/17/09 04:27 AM
08/17/09 04:27 AM
teresaq  Offline OP
SDA
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Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,984
CA, USA
why was it so important to the pioneers that it be known that the Father has a physical form and is not a spirit?

how does it play in with satans appearing?

[/quote]IS GOD A PERSON?(State of the dead and end of the lost) Jn loughborough

Whatever may be the truth in this matter, it certainly cannot be wrong for us to examine what the Word says respecting it. Many there are that would refrain from the investigation of unpopular truths because the cry of heresy is raised against them. We shall not consider ourselves subjects of the appellation, neither are we prying into the secrets of the Almighty, as we pursue the investigation of this matter. The Bible certainly contains testimony upon this point, and we again repeat, "Things which are revealed belong to us." We inquire then, What saith the Scripture? {1855 JNL, MPC 25.2}

The very testimony we have been examining in regard to man's being formed of the dust in the image of God, proves conclusively that God has a form, although the sentiment is contrary to what we have been taught, while children, from the catechism: {1855 JNL, MPC 25.3}

"Question. What is God? {1855 JNL, MPC 25.4}
"Answer. An infinite and eternal spirit; one that always was and always will be. {1855 JNL, MPC 25.5}
"Q. Where is God? {1855 JNL, MPC 25.6}
"A. Everywhere." {1855 JNL, MPC 25.7}


But we inquire, Is not God in one place more than another? Oh no, say you: the Bible says he is a spirit, and if so he must be everywhere alike. Well, if when man dies his spirit goes to God, it must go everywhere. But the Bible certainly represents God as located in heaven. "For he hath looked down from the height of his sanctuary; from heaven did the Lord behold the earth." Ps. cii, 19. Then certainly heaven cannot be everywhere, for God is represented as looking down from it. "Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven." 2 Kings ii, 11. But, says one, does not the Bible represent God as everywhere present? Ps. cxxxix, 8, 9, 10. "If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there; if I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea, even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me." {1855 JNL, MPC 25.8}

We reply, the subject is introduced in verse 7, as follows: "Whither shall I go from thy Spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?" The Spirit is God's representative. His power is manifested wherever he listeth, through the agency of his Spirit. Christ, when giving the commission to the disciples, says, "Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature, and lo! I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Now, no one would contend that Christ had been on the earth personally ever since the disciples commenced to fulfill this commission. But his Spirit has been on the earth; the Comforter that he promised to send. So in the same manner God manifests himself by his Spirit which is also the power through which he works. "But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you." Rom. viii, 11. Here is a plain distinction made between the Spirit, and God that raises the dead by that Spirit. If the living God is a Spirit in the strictest sense of the term, and at the same time is in possession of a Spirit, then we have at once the novel idea of the Spirit of a Spirit, something it will take at least a Spiritualist to explain. {1855 JNL, MPC 26.1}

Quote:
I saw a throne, and on it sat the Father and the Son. I gazed on Jesus' countenance and admired His lovely person. The Father's person I could not behold, for a cloud of glorious light covered Him. I asked Jesus if His Father had a form like Himself. He said He had, but I could not behold it, for said He, "If you should once behold the glory of His person, you would cease to exist." . ... {EW 54.2}


Quote:
As the crowning act in the great drama of deception, Satan himself will personate Christ. The church has long professed to look to the Saviour's advent as the consummation of her hopes. Now the great deceiver will make it appear that Christ has come. In different parts of the earth, Satan will manifest himself among men as a majestic being of dazzling brightness, resembling the description of the Son of God given by John in the Revelation. Revelation 1:13-15. The glory that surrounds him is unsurpassed by anything that mortal eyes have yet beheld. ...




Psa 64:5 ...an evil matter: they commune of laying snares privily; they say, Who shall see them?

Psa 7:14 Behold, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood. 15 He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made. 16 His mischief (and his violent dealing) shall return upon his own head.

Psa 7:17 I will praise the LORD according to his righteousness: and will sing praise to the name of the LORD most high.
Re: Person of God and Spiritualism [Re: teresaq] #117818
08/20/09 04:59 AM
08/20/09 04:59 AM
teresaq  Offline OP
SDA
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Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,984
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one day very soon we are going to be hauled into court to justify our beliefs.

one of the issues that will come up will be our view of "God". it will not be as it is now when trying to convince the sda church of the legitimacy of the "trinity".

it will be like this thread on carm with people who know what the true trinity doctrine is, history, definition and all. will we be stomped into the ground in court as the seventh-day-adventists were here in trying to prove that we are "trinitarians"?

Quote:
The Term "Trinity"

Those who reject the traditional formulations of the Trinity doctrine are quick to point out the word does not exist in Scripture. And they are correct. But this provides a very important insight for evaluating those who claim to believe in the Trinity while rejecting traditional formulations.

The term comes from the latin word "trinitas", a word that was created by early Christian theologians in order to explain the Christian understanding of God. Because this is a created word by the very people who held to the "traditional formulations", the word itself is directly and distinctly linked to these formulations. For a person to say that they believe in the Trinity but not in the historical definition of the Trinity is contradictory.

If someone doesn't believe in the doctrine defined by the term "Trinity", rather than hijack the term I believe that they should simply select or create another term to describe their doctrine.

I think the argument is really quite simple, if SDAs believe that the Trinity doctrine is incorrect or incomplete then they should publically acknowledge that they reject the Trinity doctrine and believe in something else instead.


Quote:
SDA-ism hijacks the term Trinity to use it as a cover for traditional SDA tri-theism. The leadership then tell their ignorant laity that the Denomination does affirm the Christian doctrine of the Trinity, while at the same time teaching the laity a completely different doctrine. The intent is to keep people from realizing that you can't call yourself a regular Protestant Christian and a Seventh-day Adventist at the same time. This deception makes people feel comfortable with their Adventism by allowing them to tell themselves their beliefs aren't all that different from other Protestants after all. That way, they won't get scared and bolt the SDA church.

It also allows them to reach out to Evangelicals, because the "prophetess" said that some day all true Protestant Christians would join the SDAs, so they need to get Evangelicals on board by tricking them into thinking they believe almost all the same stuff.


this is part of the true, traditional trinity doctrine.
Quote:
No, no, no. You're still not getting it (the orthodox, Christian understanding of the Trinity). The phrase "of one substance" does not mean that there are three persons who are all composed of the same type of substance. Rather, it means that God (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) IS only one substance--one spirit. One single living Being. A spirit Being.

And we do know what God's substance is, we don't have to speculate--Jesus tells us that God is "spirit."


or perhaps we no longer believe and teach that God has a "form" and that we were created in His physical image as this sda who has given up many of our beliefs.
Quote:

The distinctive characteristic of man’s relation to God is expressed in the declaration of his creation in the image of God. “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness” (Gen 1:26; cf. 5:1-3; 9:6). Elaborate attempts have been made to define what the “image of God” is in which man was created.2 Some contend that it is a physical resemblance between God and man.3 The problem with this view is that it presupposes that God has a corporeal nature similar to that of human beings. This idea is discredited by Christ’s statement that “God is Spirit” (John 4:24), which suggests that He is not bound by space or matter as we are. Moreover, the Biblical terms for the physical aspect of human nature (bashar, sarx—flesh, body) are never applied to God. (Immortality or Resurrection, p. 37)
Also, I believe that the scriptural descriptions of body parts in reference to God are metaphorical, that God was presenting truths about Himself and relating them in human terms. I don't believe that the verses that you quoted above that mention God's "shape" or "form" are talking about a literal, material, physical body. Besides that, the Bible in several places describes God as invisible, but I believe that God appeared in a visible form (not a bodily, material form) at times, such as when He passed by Moses. As you mentioned, angels also have appeared as visible to humans at times and have even looked like humans, but that doesn't mean that they have literal, material bodies.

http://www.christiandiscussionforums.org/v/showthread.php?t=145579

Quote:
God saw that a clearer revelation than nature was needed to portray both His personality and His character. He sent His Son into the world to reveal, so far as could be endured by human sight, the nature and the attributes of the invisible God. {CCh 75.6}

Had God desired to be represented as dwelling personally in the things of nature—in the flower, the tree, the spire of grass—would not Christ have spoken of this to His disciples when He was on the earth? But never in the teaching of Christ is God thus spoken of. Christ and the apostles taught clearly the truth of the existence of a personal God. {CCh 75.7}

Christ revealed all of God that sinful human beings could bear without being destroyed. He is the divine Teacher, the Enlightener. Had God thought us in need of revelations other than those made through Christ and in His written word, He would have given them. {CCh 75.8}


Psa 64:5 ...an evil matter: they commune of laying snares privily; they say, Who shall see them?

Psa 7:14 Behold, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood. 15 He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made. 16 His mischief (and his violent dealing) shall return upon his own head.

Psa 7:17 I will praise the LORD according to his righteousness: and will sing praise to the name of the LORD most high.
Re: Person of God and Spiritualism [Re: teresaq] #117999
08/23/09 05:42 AM
08/23/09 05:42 AM
Will  Offline
Most Dedicated Member
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 2,332
BC, Canada
Teresa,
I am glad you brought this up. For me it is obvious that the Father has a form cause Daniel describes him as sitting on a throne:
Daniel 7:9
9I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.

Clearly Our Father which art in heaven looks like.. a human smile
God Bless,
Will

Re: Person of God and Spiritualism [Re: Will] #118008
08/23/09 02:27 PM
08/23/09 02:27 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Yes, each member of the Godhead has a physical form. We were made in their image and likeness. I am looking forward to sitting on our Father's lap and staring into His beautiful eyes. "Even little children were attracted to Him. They loved to climb upon His knees and gaze into the pensive face, benignant with love. {SC 11.2}

"How does it play in with Satan's appearing?" I'm not sure there is a connection. It is obvious Jesus came in physical form and that He will return in a similar form. "This same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven." (Acts 1:11)

Re: Person of God and Spiritualism [Re: teresaq] #118018
08/23/09 03:43 PM
08/23/09 03:43 PM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Quote:
One single living Being.

I can't see how "substance," "essence" or "nature" came to be translated as "being." "Person" = "being."

Re: Person of God and Spiritualism [Re: Mountain Man] #118030
08/23/09 04:59 PM
08/23/09 04:59 PM
teresaq  Offline OP
SDA
Active Member 2024

Very Dedicated Member
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,984
CA, USA
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Yes, each member of the Godhead has a physical form. We were made in their image and likeness. I am looking forward to sitting on our Father's lap and staring into His beautiful eyes. "Even little children were attracted to Him. They loved to climb upon His knees and gaze into the pensive face, benignant with love. {SC 11.2}

"How does it play in with Satan's appearing?" I'm not sure there is a connection. It is obvious Jesus came in physical form and that He will return in a similar form. "This same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven." (Acts 1:11)
or will satan appear in a transparent "spiritual" form?

i only bring this up because ellen white and the pioneers stress this over and over.

i thought knowing that the dead are dead and the Father has a literal, physical form is enough, but, the stress she puts on it makes me think there is more we need to know.

i posted this topic elsewhere and a possible pantheist has hijacked the thread stressing how the Spirit is "in" everything. could you refute him?

Originally Posted By: Rosangela
Quote:
One single living Being.

I can't see how "substance," "essence" or "nature" came to be translated as "being." "Person" = "being."
in the trinitarian teaching of the centuries "Person" does not equal "being."

the trinitarian teaching is definitely 3 persons in 1 being. 3-in-1. that is the only way one can believe in 3 Gods and still be a monotheist.

just google trinity on the web.


Psa 64:5 ...an evil matter: they commune of laying snares privily; they say, Who shall see them?

Psa 7:14 Behold, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood. 15 He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made. 16 His mischief (and his violent dealing) shall return upon his own head.

Psa 7:17 I will praise the LORD according to his righteousness: and will sing praise to the name of the LORD most high.
Re: Person of God and Spiritualism [Re: teresaq] #118050
08/23/09 10:07 PM
08/23/09 10:07 PM
V
vastergotland  Offline
Active Member 2011
3500+ Member
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
Yes, that exactly is the issue. God, the Father of Jesus, we know He is one. But we also believe that Jesus is God aswell as our Lord. So we are in a dilemma. It seems that either God is not one, but there are more than one God, or that Jesus is not God. Must we, can we surrender either of these two pillars of our faith? The oneness of God is of such importance that it is the creed of the Jew even to this day. The divinity of Jesus is in the very center of everything we believe. The answer for most christians has been that no, we can not give up on either of these two doctrines. And the trinity has been the best atempt at uniting both of these beliefs into one coherent whole.

As for God not being Spirit, if someone fancy they know more on this subject than Jesus and care to correct Him...


Galatians 2
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

It is so hazardous to take here a little and there a little. If you put the right little's together you can make the bible teach anything you wish. //Graham Maxwell
Re: Person of God and Spiritualism [Re: teresaq] #118057
08/24/09 12:39 AM
08/24/09 12:39 AM
Rosangela  Offline
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Quote:
in the trinitarian teaching of the centuries "Person" does not equal "being."
the trinitarian teaching is definitely 3 persons in 1 being.

But this does not reflect the position of Nicea, the Concil where the doctrine of the Trinity began to be formulated. The Greek word is ousia, and at Nicea the controversy was if Christ was of the same ousia as the Father, or of a similar ousia. I can see how this makes sense if the word ousia means "nature," but not if it means "being."
So how can it be translated "three persons in one being"? This translation does not make sense in the context of Nicea. It seems to me that along the centuries the original meaning they had attributed to the word was lost.

Re: Person of God and Spiritualism [Re: Rosangela] #118063
08/24/09 03:07 AM
08/24/09 03:07 AM
teresaq  Offline OP
SDA
Active Member 2024

Very Dedicated Member
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,984
CA, USA
Originally Posted By: Rosangela
Quote:
in the trinitarian teaching of the centuries "Person" does not equal "being."
the trinitarian teaching is definitely 3 persons in 1 being.

But this does not reflect the position of Nicea, the Concil where the doctrine of the Trinity began to be formulated. The Greek word is ousia, and at Nicea the controversy was if Christ was of the same ousia as the Father, or of a similar ousia. I can see how this makes sense if the word ousia means "nature," but not if it means "being."
So how can it be translated "three persons in one being"? This translation does not make sense in the context of Nicea.
exactly!
perhaps adventists should stress they are nicene trinitarians... dunno smile

but anyway,
Quote:
TRYING TO PUT GOD INTO A FORMULA

IT could not possibly be otherwise, because it was an attempt of the finite to measure, to analyse, and even to dissect, the Infinite. It was an attempt to make the human superior to the Divine. God is infinite. No finite mind can comprehend Him as He actually is. Christ is the Word—the expression of the thought—of God; and none but He knows the depth of the meaning of that Word. "He had a name written, that no man knew but He himself; . . . and His name is called the Word of God." Rev. 19:12, 13. {September 13, 1897 ATJ, BEST 292.5}

Neither the nature, nor the relationship, of the Father and Son can ever be measured by the mind of man. "No man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal Him." Matt. 11:27. This revelation of the Father by the Son can not be complete in this world. It will require the eternal ages for man to understand "the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us through Christ Jesus." Eph. 2:7. {September 13, 1897 ATJ, BEST 292.6}

Therefore, no man's conception of God can ever be fixed as the true conception of God. God will still be infinitely beyond the broadest comprehension that the mind of man can measure. The true conception of God can be attained only through "the Spirit of revelation in the knowledge of Him." Eph. 1:17. Therefore the only thing for men to do to find out the Almighty to perfection, is, by true faith in Jesus Christ, to receive the abiding presence of this Spirit of revelation, and then quietly and joyfully wait for the eternal ages to reveal "the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and the knowledge of God." {September 13, 1897 ATJ, BEST 292.7}

An ecclesiastical historian who lived near the time, and was well acquainted with the whole matter, Socrates, has well remarked that the discussion— {September 13, 1897 ATJ, BEST 292.8}

"seemed not unlike a contest in the dark; for neither party appeared to understand distinctly the grounds on which they calumniated one another. . . . In consequence of these misunderstandings, each of them wrote volumes, as if contending against adversaries; and although it was admitted on both sides that the Son of God has a distinct person and existence, and all acknowledged that there is one God in a Trinity of persons, yet, from what cause I am unable to divine, they could not agree among themselves, and therefore were never at peace." {September 13, 1897 ATJ, BEST 292.9}

That which puzzled Socrates need not puzzle us. Although he could not divine why they should not agree when they believed the same thing, we may very readily do so, with no fear of mistake. The difficulty was that each disputant required that all the others should not only believe what he believed, but they should believe this precisely as he believed it, whereas just how he believed it, he himself could not define. And that which made them so determined in this respect was that the strife was not merely for a doctrinal statement, but for supremacy and for political power. {September 13, 1897 ATJ, BEST 292.10}


Psa 64:5 ...an evil matter: they commune of laying snares privily; they say, Who shall see them?

Psa 7:14 Behold, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood. 15 He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made. 16 His mischief (and his violent dealing) shall return upon his own head.

Psa 7:17 I will praise the LORD according to his righteousness: and will sing praise to the name of the LORD most high.
Re: Person of God and Spiritualism [Re: teresaq] #118084
08/24/09 03:01 PM
08/24/09 03:01 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Originally Posted By: teresaq
i posted this topic elsewhere and a possible pantheist has hijacked the thread stressing how the Spirit is "in" everything. could you refute him?

If God is everything then God is nothing. Or, if God is in everything then God is still nothing. If God is merely the essence of everything, or the essence in everything, then God is merely an essence. Essence, however, doesn't cut it for me personally. Nor does essence explain creation or salvation.

However, if the Bible is the sole source of our faith and understanding of God, then we are privileged to believe God is a real, tangible person. We can only testify to what we know and have experienced. People can, and will, reject our testimony, but it is not our responsibility to persuade them to believe. Ellen White explains it this way:

Quote:
As a witness for Christ, John entered into no controversy, no wearisome contention. He declared what he knew, what he had seen and heard. He had been intimately associated with Christ, had listened to His teachings, had witnessed His mighty miracles. Few could see the beauties of Christ's character as John saw them. For him the darkness had passed away; on him the true light was shining. His testimony in regard to the Saviour's life and death was clear and forcible. Out of the abundance of a heart overflowing with love for the Saviour he spoke; and no power could stay his words. {AA 555.2}

"That which was from the beginning," he declared, "which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life; . . . that which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with His Son Jesus Christ." {AA 555.3}

He could testify: "That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life; (for the Life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and show unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;) that which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ" (1 John 1:1-3). {AG 252.3}

So everyone may be able, through his own experience, to "set his seal to this, that God is true" (John 3:33, A.R.V.). He can bear witness to that which he himself has seen and heard and felt of the power of Christ. He can testify: "I needed help, and I found it in Jesus. Every want was supplied, the hunger of my soul was satisfied; the Bible is to me the revelation of Christ. I believe in Jesus because He is to me a divine Saviour. I believe the Bible because I have found it to be the voice of God to my soul." {AG 252.4}

How shall we know for ourselves God's goodness and His love? The psalmist tells us--not, hear and know, read and know, or believe and know; but--"Taste and see that the Lord is good" (Ps. 34:8). Instead of relying upon the word of another, taste for yourself. Experience is knowledge derived from experiment. Experimental religion is what is needed now. "Taste and see that the Lord is good." {AG 252.5}

Jesus is a real, tangible person because the Bible says so. The Father is a real, tangible person because Jesus said so. The Holy Spirit is a real, tangible person because Jesus said so. If people reject the testimony of the Bible and Jesus, then all we can do for them is pray that their circumstances will change so that they can be blessed by believing the truth about God.

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MARITIME 2ND ADVENT BELIEVERS ONLINE (FORMERLY MARITIME SDA ONLINE) CONSISTING MAINLY OF BOTH MEMBERS & FRIENDS
OF THE SEVENTH-DAY ADVENTIST CHURCH,
INVITES OTHER MEMBERS & FRIENDS OF THE SEVENTH-DAY ADVENTIST CHURCH ANYWHERE IN THE WORLD WHO WISHES TO JOIN US!
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