I think that for the sake of the non-sdas that might be reading this we should probably stick with biblical language. Jesus was the God-man at the incarnation, He did not exist before that.

Just to clarify here, you're not saying that the Second Person of the Godhead, the Son of God, didn't exist, but that the man Jesus did not exist, until the Son became incarnate, right?

Are you saying it's possible Jesus turned the dust into lice? If so, in what sense was He protecting the Egyptians?

Once again, Mike, you've brought out some good, heaven-inspired truths. "It is hard...to kick against the pricks."

Perhaps, Tom, you have not noticed the irony in the word "pricks." To whom did this refer?

GC, if you think I've missed something, please just point it out.

Act 9:5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.

thanks for pointing out that when we persecute others we are "kicking against the pricks". we are resisting heaven itself.

Why is Jesus, or as teresaq phrased it: "heaven itself," likened to "pricks"?

It looks like we're talking past each other.

I really don't understand how you could think this (the EGW quote) "doesn't seem conclusive." It seems to me saying



is as conclusive as it gets.

I don't see how there could be more information pointing to the idea that God was orchestrating this, because that would contradict the idea that Satan was concealing his own work.

The Jews had forged their own fetters; they had filled for themselves the cup of vengeance. In the utter destruction that befell them as a nation, and in all the woes that followed them in their dispersion, they were but reaping the harvest which their own hands had sown. Says the prophet: "O Israel, thou hast destroyed thyself;" "for thou hast fallen by thine iniquity." Hosea 13:9; 14:1. Their sufferings are often represented as a punishment visited upon them by the direct decree of God. It is thus that the great deceiver seeks to conceal his own work. By stubborn rejection of divine love and mercy, the Jews had caused the protection of God to be withdrawn from them ...(GC 35)

GC:I will withdraw my protection, and see what happens next.

T:Also, in conjunction with this, the following:

GC:The seven last plagues will be more terrible than the ten which Egypt experienced, and I have no doubt in my mind but that God is directly in control of them, not just "withdrawing protection" (which I agree that He does) and then seeing what the devil conjures up with the extra liberty.

The long-suffering of God toward Jerusalem only confirmed the Jews in their stubborn impenitence. In their hatred and cruelty toward the disciples of Jesus they rejected the last offer of mercy. Then God withdrew His protection from them and removed His restraining power from Satan and his angels, and the nation was left to the control of the leader she had chosen. Her children had spurned the grace of Christ, which would have enabled them to subdue their evil impulses, and now these became the conquerors. Satan aroused the fiercest and most debased passions of the soul. Men did not reason; they were beyond reason--controlled by impulse and blind rage. They became satanic in their cruelty. In the family and in the nation, among the highest and the lowest classes alike, there was suspicion, envy, hatred, strife, rebellion, murder. There was no safety anywhere. Friends and kindred betrayed one another. Parents slew their children, and children their parents. The rulers of the people had no power to rule themselves. Uncontrolled passions made them tyrants. The Jews had accepted false testimony to condemn the innocent Son of God. Now false accusations made their own lives uncertain. By their actions they had long been saying: "Cause the Holy One of Israel to cease from before us." Isaiah 30:11. Now their desire was granted. The fear of God no longer disturbed them. Satan was at the head of the nation, and the highest civil and religious authorities were under his sway. (GC 29)

Regarding #117804, Arnold, I didn't make any comment about what you wrote, but about what GC wrote.



And, actually, I didn't bring this up, but Teresa did. I simply agreed with her point.

is that what tom has said or implied?

Judgments Come When God Removes His Protection

I was shown that the judgments of God would not come directly out from the Lord upon them, but in this way: They place themselves beyond His protection. He warns, corrects, reproves, and points out the only path of safety; then, if those who have been the objects of His special care will follow their own course, independent of the Spirit of God, after repeated warnings, if they choose their own way, then He does not commission His angels to prevent Satan's decided attacks upon them. {LDE 242.1}
It is Satan's power that is at work at sea and on land, bringing calamity and distress and sweeping off multitudes to make sure of his prey.--14MR 3 (1883). {LDE 242.2}
God will use His enemies as instruments to punish those who have followed their own pernicious ways whereby the truth of God has been misrepresented, misjudged, and dishonored.--PC 136 (1894). {LDE 242.3}
Already the Spirit of God, insulted, refused, abused, is being withdrawn from the earth. Just as fast as God's Spirit is taken away, Satan's cruel work will be done upon land and sea.--Ms 134, 1898. {LDE 242.4}
The wicked have passed the boundary of their probation; the Spirit of God, persistently resisted, has been at last withdrawn. Unsheltered by divine grace, they have no protection from the wicked one.--GC 614 (1911). {LDE 242.5}

At Times Holy Angels Exercise Destructive Power [THE SINNER MUST HIMSELF BEAR FULL RESPONSIBILITY FOR THE PUNISHMENT THAT IS METED OUT TO HIM. ELLEN WHITE STATES, "GOD DESTROYS NO ONE. THE SINNER DESTROYS HIMSELF BY HIS OWN IMPENITENCE." 5T 120. SEE FURTHER THE GREAT CONTROVERSY, PP. 25-37.]

God's judgments were awakened against Jericho. It was a stronghold. But the Captain of the Lord's host Himself came from heaven to lead the armies of heaven in an attack upon the city. Angels of God laid hold of the massive walls and brought them to the ground.--3T 264 (1873). {LDE 243.1}
Under God the angels are all-powerful. On one occasion, in obedience to the command of Christ, they slew of the Assyrian army in one night one hundred and eighty-five thousand men.--DA 700 (1898). {LDE 243.2}
The same angel who had come from the royal courts to rescue Peter had been the messenger of wrath and judgment to Herod. The angel smote Peter to arouse him from slumber. It was with a different stroke that he smote the wicked king, laying low his pride and bringing upon him the punishment of the Almighty. Herod died in great agony of mind and body, under the retributive judgment of God.--AA 152 (1911). {LDE 243.3}
A single angel destroyed all the first-born of the Egyptians and filled the land with mourning. When David offended against God by numbering the people, one angel caused that terrible destruction by which his sin was punished. The same destructive power exercised by holy angels when God commands, will be exercised by evil angels when He permits. There are forces now ready, and only waiting the divine permission, to spread desolation everywhere.--GC 614 (1911). {LDE 243.4}