Forums118
Topics9,199
Posts195,609
Members1,323
|
Most Online5,850 Feb 29th, 2020
|
|
S |
M |
T |
W |
T |
F |
S |
|
|
|
1
|
2
|
3
|
4
|
5
|
6
|
7
|
8
|
9
|
10
|
11
|
12
|
13
|
14
|
15
|
16
|
17
|
18
|
19
|
20
|
21
|
22
|
23
|
24
|
25
|
26
|
27
|
28
|
29
|
30
|
31
|
|
|
Here is a link to show exactly where the Space Station is over earth right now: Click Here
|
|
|
The Suffering of the Lost
#114280
06/07/09 02:25 AM
06/07/09 02:25 AM
|
OP
SDA Active Member 2024
Very Dedicated Member
|
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,984
CA, USA
|
|
this is from uriah smiths daniel and revelation which is quite interesting in light of some discussions involving the suffering of the lost and fire. URS DNR 20 THE FIRST AND SECOND RESURRECTION page 0745 paragraph 2 The Execution of the Sentence. - The wicked are to be punished according to their works. The Scriptures declare that they shall be rewarded according to their deeds. There are, then, to be degrees in the punishment of the wicked; and it may be asked how this can be harmonized with the view that death is the punishment for sin, and comes upon all alike. Let us ask believers in eternal misery how they will maintain degrees in their system. They tell us the intensity of the pain endured will be in each case proportioned to the guilt of the sufferer. But how can this be? Are not the flames of hell equally severe in all parts? and will they not equally affect all the immaterial souls cast therein? But God can interpose, it is answered, to produce the effect desired. Very well then, we reply, cannot he also interpose, if necessary, and graduate the pain which will attend the infliction of death upon the sinner as the climax of his penalty? So, then, our view is equal with the common one in this respect, while it possesses great advantages over it in another; for while that has to find its degrees
0746
of punishment in intensity of pain alone, the duration in all cases being the same, this may not only have degrees in pain, but in duration also; inasmuch as some may perish in a short space of time, and the weary sufferings of others be long drawn out. But yet we apprehend that the bodily suffering will be but an unnoticed trifle compared with the mental agony, that keen anguish which will rack their souls as they get a view of their incomparable loss, each according to his capacity of appreciation. The youth who had but little more than reached the years of accountability, being less able to comprehend his situation and his loss, will of course feel it less; to him of older years, more capacity, and consequently a deeper experience in sin, the burden of his fate will be proportionately greater; while the man of giant intellect and almost boundless comprehension, - who hence possessed greater influence for evil, and so was the more guilty for devoting his powers to the service of that evil, - being able to understand his situation fully, comprehend his fate, and realize his loss, will feel it most keenly of all. Into his soul the iron will indeed enter most intolerably deep. And thus, by an established law of mind, the sufferings of each may be most accurately adjusted to the magnitude of his guilt. URS DNR 20 THE FIRST AND SECOND RESURRECTION page 0746 paragraph 1 That the degree of suffering which each one is to endure is taken into the account as a part of the punishment of his crimes, is evident from Rom.2:6-10. Paul, here speaking of the future "judgment of God," says:- URS DNR 20 THE FIRST AND SECOND RESURRECTION page 0746 paragraph 2 "Who will render to every man according to his deeds: to them who by patient continuance in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality [he will render], eternal life; but unto them that are contentious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness [he will render], indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile." my question would be, when or how did we drift towards, at least, a partial view of the "eternal torment" idea in light of what our pioneers believed and taught?
Psa 64:5 ...an evil matter: they commune of laying snares privily; they say, Who shall see them?
Psa 7:14 Behold, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood. 15 He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made. 16 His mischief (and his violent dealing) shall return upon his own head.
Psa 7:17 I will praise the LORD according to his righteousness: and will sing praise to the name of the LORD most high.
|
|
|
Re: The Suffering of the Lost
[Re: teresaq]
#114290
06/07/09 03:43 AM
06/07/09 03:43 AM
|
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
|
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
|
|
I think there are some really good points brought out here, especially that the more experience one has, and the greater the intellect, the greater the suffering. I didn't care for the phrasing that the suffering is "adjusted," which makes it sound imposed or arbitrary. The greater ones experience and/or intellect, the greater the suffering, precisely for the reasons brought out: there's great capacity for understanding, and more to remember. There's no need to "adjust" anything.
But then, U. Smith may have simply been using this language because he was responding to a specific argument.
Regarding when different views began emerging, there was a fellow here who used to post from time to time, who went by "Keven H." I think, who had done quite a bit of research in this area. He's the only one I can think of that might know, but he hasn't been here for quite awhile. Oh, I know one other person, who hasn't been here for even longer. I'll see if I can find something out.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
|
|
|
Re: The Suffering of the Lost
[Re: Tom]
#119001
09/10/09 07:37 PM
09/10/09 07:37 PM
|
OP
SDA Active Member 2024
Very Dedicated Member
|
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,984
CA, USA
|
|
have you found out anything more about how we drifted into more of a variation of the eternal burning doctrine?
which, for me, raises the question of whether the lost will be raised with "immortality" or some form of that, which would be a complete contradiction.
we are either raised with immortality or not, not a temporary one.
Psa 64:5 ...an evil matter: they commune of laying snares privily; they say, Who shall see them?
Psa 7:14 Behold, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood. 15 He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made. 16 His mischief (and his violent dealing) shall return upon his own head.
Psa 7:17 I will praise the LORD according to his righteousness: and will sing praise to the name of the LORD most high.
|
|
|
Re: The Suffering of the Lost
[Re: teresaq]
#119014
09/11/09 01:11 AM
09/11/09 01:11 AM
|
SDA Active Member 2023
5500+ Member
|
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,583
California, USA
|
|
when or how did we drift towards, at least, a partial view of the "eternal torment" idea in light of what our pioneers believed and taught? You hold to a partial view of "eternal torment"? How did you manage to get there? Our evangelistic efforts, as far as I know, have always taught soul sleep and eternal death. U. Smith was pretty clear in the quote that suffering varied according to the sin, and the duration was finite.
By God's grace, Arnold
There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
|
|
|
Re: The Suffering of the Lost
[Re: asygo]
#119028
09/11/09 05:48 AM
09/11/09 05:48 AM
|
OP
SDA Active Member 2024
Very Dedicated Member
|
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,984
CA, USA
|
|
when or how did we drift towards, at least, a partial view of the "eternal torment" idea in light of what our pioneers believed and taught? You hold to a partial view of "eternal torment"? How did you manage to get there? Our evangelistic efforts, as far as I know, have always taught soul sleep and eternal death. U. Smith was pretty clear in the quote that suffering varied according to the sin, and the duration was finite. oh, so the church stills holds to the suffering of conviction as presented in the article, instead of some kind of conditional immortality which would be required to burn by fire?
Psa 64:5 ...an evil matter: they commune of laying snares privily; they say, Who shall see them?
Psa 7:14 Behold, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood. 15 He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made. 16 His mischief (and his violent dealing) shall return upon his own head.
Psa 7:17 I will praise the LORD according to his righteousness: and will sing praise to the name of the LORD most high.
|
|
|
Re: The Suffering of the Lost
[Re: teresaq]
#119162
09/14/09 03:39 PM
09/14/09 03:39 PM
|
SDA Active Member 2023
5500+ Member
|
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,583
California, USA
|
|
The church still firmly believes that sinners suffer in varying degrees, both in intensity and duration, depending on the individual's specific circumstances, as Smith described. And that servant who knew his master’s will, and did not prepare himself or do according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he who did not know, yet committed things deserving of stripes, shall be beaten with few. For everyone to whom much is given, from him much will be required; and to whom much has been committed, of him they will ask the more. (Luke 12:47-48) Torment, yes, but not eternal.
By God's grace, Arnold
There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
|
|
|
Re: The Suffering of the Lost
[Re: asygo]
#119168
09/14/09 05:45 PM
09/14/09 05:45 PM
|
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
|
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
|
|
There was a fellow who used to post here from time to time whose name was Keven H. He had studied into this subject quite a bit (the subject of the destruction of the wicked). My recollection is of him saying something like that as far back as he looked, there had always been those who believed the fire that destroyed the wicked was literal, and those who didn't.
Regarding "Torment, yes, but not eternal," I think this is what teresa had in mind by saying "a variation of eternal torment." The variation would be the time element.
The question is if our belief is essentially the same as those who believe in eternal torment, except for the time duration element. Or our their fundamental differences in regards to what causes the torment?
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
|
|
|
Re: The Suffering of the Lost
[Re: Tom]
#119185
09/15/09 02:57 AM
09/15/09 02:57 AM
|
SDA Active Member 2023
5500+ Member
|
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,583
California, USA
|
|
Regarding "Torment, yes, but not eternal," I think this is what teresa had in mind by saying "a variation of eternal torment." The variation would be the time element. That's an interesting way to put it. Kind of like saying we believe a "variation of once saved always saved" with the variation on the "always saved" element. I guess.... The question is if our belief is essentially the same as those who believe in eternal torment, except for the time duration element. Or our their fundamental differences in regards to what causes the torment? tq, in the OP, quoted Smith, then asked how "we" drifted towards "a partial view of the 'eternal torment' idea in light of what our pioneers believed and taught." Here's what I can find in the quote that summarizes what Smith was arguing against, and what he was arguing for: So, then, our view is equal with the common one in this respect, while it possesses great advantages over it in another; for while that has to find its degrees
0746
of punishment in intensity of pain alone, the duration in all cases being the same, this may not only have degrees in pain, but in duration also; inasmuch as some may perish in a short space of time, and the weary sufferings of others be long drawn out. There are two items: degree of pain, duration of pain. Regarding duration, he said, "some may perish in a short space of time, and the weary sufferings of others be long drawn out." But he was agreeing with the "common" view that there are degrees of pain. On those two points, the church is still in agreement with Smith. So I don't know what the "drift" is that "we" are doing. In any case, if we will hold to Smith's quote, then we indeed do believe in eternal torment for the lost, except for the eternal part. (We also believe in eternal torment for the saved, except for the torment part.) As for the causes of the torment, what the "common" view is in that regard is not described in the quote, so I don't know.
By God's grace, Arnold
There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
|
|
|
Re: The Suffering of the Lost
[Re: asygo]
#119192
09/15/09 04:33 AM
09/15/09 04:33 AM
|
OP
SDA Active Member 2024
Very Dedicated Member
|
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,984
CA, USA
|
|
Regarding "Torment, yes, but not eternal," I think this is what teresa had in mind by saying "a variation of eternal torment." The variation would be the time element. That's an interesting way to put it. Kind of like saying we believe a "variation of once saved always saved" with the variation on the "always saved" element. I guess.... The question is if our belief is essentially the same as those who believe in eternal torment, except for the time duration element. Or our their fundamental differences in regards to what causes the torment? tq, in the OP, quoted Smith, then asked how "we" drifted towards "a partial view of the 'eternal torment' idea in light of what our pioneers believed and taught." Here's what I can find in the quote that summarizes what Smith was arguing against, and what he was arguing for: So, then, our view is equal with the common one in this respect, while it possesses great advantages over it in another; for while that has to find its degrees of punishment in intensity of pain alone, the duration in all cases being the same, this may not only have degrees in pain, but in duration also; inasmuch as some may perish in a short space of time, and the weary sufferings of others be long drawn out. There are two items: degree of pain, duration of pain. Regarding duration, he said, "some may perish in a short space of time, and the weary sufferings of others be long drawn out." But he was agreeing with the "common" view that there are degrees of pain. On those two points, the church is still in agreement with Smith. So I don't know what the "drift" is that "we" are doing. ... hmmm, perhaps you were in a hurry as you read. no wonder the confusion. smith is referring to mental agony of the lost not burning. the mental agony, that keen anguish which will rack their souls as they get a view of their incomparable loss, each according to his capacity of appreciation. The youth who had but little more than reached the years of accountability, being less able to comprehend his situation and his loss, will of course feel it less; to him of older years, more capacity, and consequently a deeper experience in sin, the burden of his fate will be proportionately greater; while the man of giant intellect and almost boundless comprehension, - who hence possessed greater influence for evil, and so was the more guilty for devoting his powers to the service of that evil, - being able to understand his situation fully, comprehend his fate, and realize his loss, will feel it most keenly of all. Into his soul the iron will indeed enter most intolerably deep. And thus, by an established law of mind, the sufferings of each may be most accurately adjusted to the magnitude of his guilt.
Psa 64:5 ...an evil matter: they commune of laying snares privily; they say, Who shall see them?
Psa 7:14 Behold, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood. 15 He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made. 16 His mischief (and his violent dealing) shall return upon his own head.
Psa 7:17 I will praise the LORD according to his righteousness: and will sing praise to the name of the LORD most high.
|
|
|
Re: The Suffering of the Lost
[Re: teresaq]
#119193
09/15/09 05:36 AM
09/15/09 05:36 AM
|
SDA Active Member 2023
5500+ Member
|
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,583
California, USA
|
|
smith is referring to mental agony of the lost not burning. Where in the quote does he describe the "common view"/eternal torment alternative to this? Regardless, Smith made no argument against burning. In fact, had you started your quote at the beginning of the sentence, you would have seen something very interesting. But yet we apprehend that the bodily suffering will be but an unnoticed trifle compared with the mental agony... First, there is bodily suffering. Second, whatever that bodily suffering will be is "an unnoticed trifle compared with the mental agony" that the lost will suffer. IOW, don't worry about the burning; there will be much worse things than that. Like Jesus as He suffered the penalty of sin, the physical suffering the lost will endure will be an insignificant part of their torment.
Last edited by asygo; 09/15/09 05:39 AM.
By God's grace, Arnold
There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
|
|
|
|
Here is the link to this week's Sabbath School Lesson Study and Discussion Material: Click Here
|
|
|