". . . cleanliness in Christ must precede christian character perfection."

What does he mean? In what sense is cleanliness and character perfection different?

". . . cleanliness in Christ must precede christian character perfection."

What does he mean? In what sense is cleanliness and character perfection different?

Rosangela and Arnold, when do you think God justifies sinners - before or after the crucifixion of their old man habits and practices?

God requires the entire surrender of the heart, before justification can take place; and in order for man to retain justification, there must be continual obedience, through active, living faith that works by love and purifies the soul. (FW 100)

What about you guys try to relate all this a little less to the novel-sized threads from before and a little more to what the linked sermonettes or others from the same source acctually says?

Sometimes before, sometimes after. The crucifixion of the "old man habits and practices" is not the determining factor in justification. The FW 100 quote illustrates it perfectly:

Before justification happens, God requires crucifixion of the old man spirit. When one fully surrenders, whether or not he has full knowledge of every bad habit, he is justified.

To remain justified, one must remain fully surrendered to God. And when one is fully surrendered to God, he will follow Him wherever He goes. That is the ultimate motivation of the true believer - to be with God always. And how does that look from the outside? Continual obedience.

But that can only happen if one is fully surrendered and justified. Hence, cleanliness of heart (in Christ) precedes cleansing from every bad habit and practice.

We must gain the victory over self, crucify the affections and lusts; and then begins the union of the soul with Christ. (5T 47)

But Jesus was ever presenting before them that these [defective character traits] must be given up, emptied from the soul, that he might implant a new nature therein. (RH 10-5-1897)

You have confessed your sins, and in heart put them away. You have resolved to give yourself to God. Now go to Him, and ask that He will wash away your sins and give you a new heart. Then believe that He does this because He has promised. (SC 49)

In the Sermon on the Mount, Christ has given a definition of true sanctification. He lived a life of holiness. He was an object lesson of what His followers are to be. We are to be crucified with Christ, buried with Him, and then quickened by His Spirit. Then we are filled with His life. (3SM 202)

The fountain of the heart must be purified before the streams can become pure. He who is trying to reach heaven by his own works in keeping the law is attempting an impossibility. There is no safety for one who has merely a legal religion, a form of godliness. The Christian’s life is not a modification or improvement of the old, but a transformation of nature. There is a death to self and sin, and a new life altogether. This change can be brought about only by the effectual working of the Holy Spirit. (DA 172)

In the new birth the heart is brought into harmony with God, as it is brought into accord with His law. When this mighty change has taken place in the sinner, he has passed from death unto life, from sin unto holiness, from transgression and rebellion to obedience and loyalty. The old life of alienation from God has ended; the new life of reconciliation, of faith and love, has begun. Then “the righteousness of the law” will “be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.” Romans 8:4. And the language of the soul will be: “O how love I Thy law! it is my meditation all the day.” Psalm 119:97. (GC 468)

Good idea. Here's what he wrote: ". . . cleanliness in Christ must precede christian character perfection."

What does he mean? In what sense is cleanliness and character perfection different?

What about you guys try to relate all this a little less to the novel-sized threads from before and a little more to what the linked sermonettes or others from the same source acctually says?

He seems to think crucifying our old man habits and practices happens gradually sometime after Jesus declares us legally "clean".

Yes crater, also known as trolling and forbidden on many forums.
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At the words, "If I wash thee not, thou hast no part with Me," Peter surrendered his pride and self-will. He could not endure the thought of separation from Christ; that would have been death to him. "Not my feet only," he said, "but also my hands and my head. Jesus saith to him, He that is washed needeth not save to wash his feet, but is clean every whit." {DA 646.2}

These words mean more than bodily cleanliness. Christ is still speaking of the higher cleansing as illustrated by the lower. He who came from the bath was clean, but the sandaled feet soon became dusty, and again needed to be washed. So Peter and his brethren had been washed in the great fountain opened for sin and uncleanness. Christ acknowledged them as His. But temptation had led them into evil, and they still needed His cleansing grace. When Jesus girded Himself with a towel to wash the dust from their feet, He desired by that very act to wash the alienation, jealousy, and pride from their hearts. This was of far more consequence than the washing of their dusty feet. With the spirit they then had, not one of them was prepared for communion with Christ. Until brought into a state of humility and love, they were not prepared to partake of the paschal supper, or to share in the memorial service which Christ was about to institute. Their hearts must be cleansed. Pride and self-seeking create dissension and hatred, but all this Jesus washed away in washing their feet. A change of feeling was brought about. Looking upon them, Jesus could say, "Ye are clean." Now there was union of heart, love for one another. They had become humble and teachable. Except Judas, each was ready to concede to another the highest place. Now with subdued and grateful hearts they could receive Christ's words. {DA 646.3}

Like Peter and his brethren, we too have been washed in the blood of Christ, yet often through contact with evil the heart's purity is soiled. We must come to Christ for His cleansing grace. Peter shrank from bringing his soiled feet in contact with the hands of his Lord and Master; but how often we bring our sinful, polluted hearts in contact with the heart of Christ! How grievous to Him is our evil temper, our vanity and pride! Yet all our infirmity and defilement we must bring to Him. He alone can wash us clean. We are not prepared for communion with Him unless cleansed by His efficacy. {DA 646.4}

Jesus said to the disciples, "Ye are clean, but not all." He had washed the feet of Judas, but the heart had not been yielded to Him. It was not purified. Judas had not submitted himself to Christ. {DA 649.1}

Pastor Asscherick made it clear in his message he believes Jesus declared them legally sinless though in reality they were very sinful and defective.

Yes crater, also known as trolling and forbidden on many forums.
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I think he refers to the fact that Jesus said, "You are clean" before the disciples forsook Him and Peter denied Him. The point is, He knew they would do that.

At the words, "If I wash thee not, thou hast no part with Me," Peter surrendered his pride and self-will. He could not endure the thought of separation from Christ; that would have been death to him. "Not my feet only," he said, "but also my hands and my head. Jesus saith to him, He that is washed needeth not save to wash his feet, but is clean every whit." {DA 646.2}

These words mean more than bodily cleanliness. Christ is still speaking of the higher cleansing as illustrated by the lower. He who came from the bath was clean, but the sandaled feet soon became dusty, and again needed to be washed. So Peter and his brethren had been washed in the great fountain opened for sin and uncleanness. Christ acknowledged them as His. But temptation had led them into evil, and they still needed His cleansing grace. When Jesus girded Himself with a towel to wash the dust from their feet, He desired by that very act to wash the alienation, jealousy, and pride from their hearts. This was of far more consequence than the washing of their dusty feet. With the spirit they then had, not one of them was prepared for communion with Christ. Until brought into a state of humility and love, they were not prepared to partake of the paschal supper, or to share in the memorial service which Christ was about to institute. Their hearts must be cleansed. Pride and self-seeking create dissension and hatred, but all this Jesus washed away in washing their feet. A change of feeling was brought about. Looking upon them, Jesus could say, "Ye are clean." Now there was union of heart, love for one another. They had become humble and teachable. Except Judas, each was ready to concede to another the highest place. Now with subdued and grateful hearts they could receive Christ's words. {DA 646.3}

Like Peter and his brethren, we too have been washed in the blood of Christ, yet often through contact with evil the heart's purity is soiled. We must come to Christ for His cleansing grace. Peter shrank from bringing his soiled feet in contact with the hands of his Lord and Master; but how often we bring our sinful, polluted hearts in contact with the heart of Christ! How grievous to Him is our evil temper, our vanity and pride! Yet all our infirmity and defilement we must bring to Him. He alone can wash us clean. We are not prepared for communion with Him unless cleansed by His efficacy. {DA 646.4}

Jesus said to the disciples, "Ye are clean, but not all." He had washed the feet of Judas, but the heart had not been yielded to Him. It was not purified. Judas had not submitted himself to Christ. {DA 649.1}

The question is - How can it be said people are in Christ while they are in the throes of known sin?

The Lord Jesus is very near to those who thus appreciate His gracious gifts, tracing all their good things back to the benevolent, loving, care-taking God, and recognizing Him as the great Fountain of all comfort and consolation, the inexhaustible Source of grace. {CG 149.1}

These truths of vital importance are to test the world; and yet in our own country there are cities, villages, and towns that have never heard the warning message. Young men who feel stirred by the appeals that have been made for help in this great work of advancing the cause of God make some advance moves, but do not get the burden of the work upon them sufficiently to accomplish what they might. They are willing to do a small work which does not require special effort. Therefore they do not learn to place their whole dependence upon God and by living faith draw from the great Fountain and Source of light and strength in order that their efforts may prove wholly successful. {3T 202.2}

Those who appreciate the word will teach as disciples who have been sitting at the feet of Jesus and have accustomed themselves to learn of Him. In the place of bringing into our schools books containing the suppositions of the world's great authors, they will say: Tempt me not to disregard the greatest Author and the greatest Teacher, through whom I have everlasting life. He never mistakes. He is the great Fountain head whence all wisdom flows. Then let every teacher sow the seed of truth in the minds of students. Christ is the standard Teacher. {6T 160.1}

As the weary traveler seeks the spring in the desert and, finding it, quenches his burning thirst, so will the Christian thirst for and obtain the pure water of life, of which Christ is the fountain. {MB 19.2}

As we discern the perfection of our Saviour's character we shall desire to become wholly transformed and renewed in the image of His purity. The more we know of God, the higher will be our ideal of character and the more earnest our longing to reflect His likeness. A divine element combines with the human when the soul reaches out after God and the longing heart can say, "My soul, wait thou only upon God; for my expectation is from Him." Psalm 62:5. {MB 19.3}

If you have a sense of need in your soul, if you hunger and thirst after righteousness, this is an evidence that Christ has wrought upon your heart, in order that He may be sought unto to do for you, through the endowment of the Holy Spirit, those things which it is impossible for you to do for yourself. We need not seek to quench our thirst at shallow streams; for the great fountain is just above us, of whose abundant waters we may freely drink, if we will rise a little higher in the pathway of faith. {MB 19.4}

The words of God are the wellsprings of life. As you seek unto those living springs you will, through the Holy Spirit, be brought into communion with Christ. Familiar truths will present themselves to your mind in a new aspect, texts of Scripture will burst upon you with a new meaning as a flash of light, you will see the relation of other truths to the work of redemption, and you will know that Christ is leading you, a divine Teacher is at your side. {MB 20.1}

Jesus said, "The water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life." John 4:14. As the Holy Spirit opens to you the truth you will treasure up the most precious experiences and will long to speak to others of the comforting things that have been revealed to you. When brought into association with them you will communicate some fresh thought in regard to the character or the work of Christ. You will have some fresh revelation of His pitying love to impart to those who love Him and to those who love Him not. {MB 20.2}

Does it mean, then, that believers who commit a known sin do so because they failed to stay in Christ?

And, does Jesus declare them "clean" while they are committing a known sin?

I got the impression from listening to Pastor A that he believes the disciples were committing known sins and Jesus declared them "clean" in spite of it.

I got the impression from listening to Pastor A that he believes the disciples were committing known sins and Jesus declared them "clean" in spite of it.