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What is the inevitable of result of sin? #120057
10/03/09 04:04 PM
10/03/09 04:04 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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What is the inevitable result of sin? Is it 1) emotional anguish ending in death, 2) capital punishment, or 3) something else?

Quote:
Then the end will come. God will vindicate His law and deliver His people. Satan and all who have joined him in rebellion will be cut off. Sin and sinners will perish, root and branch, (Mal. 4:1),--Satan the root, and his followers the branches. The word will be fulfilled to the prince of evil, "Because thou hast set thine heart as the heart of God; . . . I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. . . . Thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more." Then "the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be;" "they shall be as though they had not been." Ezek. 28:6-19; Ps. 37:10; Obadiah 16. {DA 763.4}

This is not an act of arbitrary power on the part of God. The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown. God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life. He is "alienated from the life of God." Christ says, "All they that hate Me love death." Eph. 4:18; Prov. 8:36. God gives them existence for a time that they may develop their character and reveal their principles. This accomplished, they receive the results of their own choice. By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them. {DA 764.1}

At the beginning of the great controversy, the angels did not understand this. Had Satan and his host then been left to reap the full result of their sin, they would have perished; but it would not have been apparent to heavenly beings that this was the inevitable result of sin. A doubt of God's goodness would have remained in their minds as evil seed, to produce its deadly fruit of sin and woe. {DA 764.2}

But not so when the great controversy shall be ended. Then, the plan of redemption having been completed, the character of God is revealed to all created intelligences. The precepts of His law are seen to be perfect and immutable. Then sin has made manifest its nature, Satan his character. Then the extermination of sin will vindicate God's love and establish His honor before a universe of beings who delight to do His will, and in whose heart is His law. {DA 764.3}

The "this" in the quote above is in reference to "I will destroy thee". The "terrible light of His presence" will "destroy", "exterminate" sin and sinners. ". . . His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them."

Quote:
When the divine Presence was manifested upon Sinai, the glory of the Lord was like devouring fire in the sight of all Israel. But when Christ shall come in glory with His holy angels the whole earth shall be ablaze with the terrible light of His presence. "Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before Him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about Him. He shall call to the heavens from above, and to the earth, that He may judge His people." Psalm 50:3, 4. A fiery stream shall issue and come forth from before Him, which shall cause the elements to melt with fervent heat, the earth also, and the works that are therein shall be burned up. "The Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel." 2 Thessalonians 1:7, 8. {PP 339.2}

The inevitable result of sin is the "inevitable retribution" of God's wrath. It involves mental and physical suffering ending in eternal death. It is the outworking of capital punishment.

Quote:
Still the loyal angels urged him and his sympathizers to submit to God; and they set before them the inevitable result should they refuse: He who had created them could overthrow their power and signally punish their rebellious daring. No angel could successfully oppose the law of God, which was as sacred as Himself. They warned all to close their ears against Lucifer's deceptive reasoning, and urged him and his followers to seek the presence of God without delay and confess the error of questioning His wisdom and authority. {PP 40.2}

The unwillingness of the Lord to chastise is here vividly shown. He stays His judgments that He may plead with the impenitent. He who exercises "loving-kindness, judgment, and righteousness, in the earth" yearns over His erring children; in every way possible He seeks to teach them the way of life everlasting. Jeremiah 9:24. He had brought the Israelites out of bondage that they might serve Him, the only true and living God. Though they had wandered long in idolatry and had slighted His warnings, yet He now declares His willingness to defer chastisement and grant yet another opportunity for repentance. He makes plain the fact that only by the most thorough heart reformation could the impending doom be averted. In vain would be the trust they might place in the temple and its services. Rites and ceremonies could not atone for sin. Notwithstanding their claim to be the chosen people of God, reformation of heart and of the life practice alone could save them from the inevitable result of continued transgression. {PK 413.3}

Through the gospel, souls that are degraded and enslaved by Satan are to be redeemed to share the glorious liberty of the sons of God. God's purpose is not merely to deliver from the suffering that is the inevitable result of sin, but to save from sin itself. The soul, corrupted and deformed, is to be purified, transformed, that it may be clothed in "the beauty of the Lord our God," "conformed to the image of His Son." "Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love Him." Psalm 90:17; Romans 8:29; 1 Corinthians 2:9. Eternity alone can reveal the glorious destiny to which man, restored to God's image, may attain. {MB 60.3}

God is the life-giver. From the beginning, all His laws were ordained to life. But sin broke in upon the order that God had established, and discord followed. So long as sin exists, suffering and death are inevitable. It is only because the Redeemer has borne the curse of sin in our behalf, that man can hope to escape, in his own person, its dire results. {AG 73.3}

And, on the other hand, the judgments of God pronounced against sin, the inevitable retribution, the degradation of our character, and the final destruction, are presented in God's word to warn us against the service of Satan. {SC 21.4}

Re: What is the inevitable of result of sin? [Re: Mountain Man] #120058
10/03/09 04:06 PM
10/03/09 04:06 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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Does Ellen White contradict herself in the following two passages?

Still the loyal angels urged him and his sympathizers to submit to God; and they set before them the inevitable result should they refuse: He who had created them could overthrow their power and signally punish their rebellious daring. No angel could successfully oppose the law of God, which was as sacred as Himself. They warned all to close their ears against Lucifer's deceptive reasoning, and urged him and his followers to seek the presence of God without delay and confess the error of questioning His wisdom and authority. {PP 40.2}

"I will destroy thee, O covering cherub" . . . At the beginning of the great controversy, the angels did not understand this. Had Satan and his host then been left to reap the full result of their sin, they would have perished; but it would not have been apparent to heavenly beings that this was the inevitable result of sin. A doubt of God's goodness would have remained in their minds as evil seed, to produce its deadly fruit of sin and woe. {DA 764.2}

Re: What is the inevitable of result of sin? [Re: Mountain Man] #120078
10/04/09 04:15 AM
10/04/09 04:15 AM
Tom  Offline
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Quote:
The "this" in the quote above is in reference to "I will destroy thee". The "terrible light of His presence" will "destroy", "exterminate" sin and sinners. ". . . His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them."


In the preceding paragraph, EGW explains that it is not an arbitrary ("depending on individual discretion (as of a judge) and not fixed by law" Webster's) act of power on the part of God that destroys the wicked, but it is the result of their own choice (which she repeats nine(!) times in a row). This is the "this" which the angels did not understand.

She goes on to clarify this by saying had God left Satan to reap the results of his sin, he would have perished, but it would not have been apparent that his death was the inevitable result of sin. This is the same idea. It would have appeared to have been an arbitrary act of power on the part of God as opposed to the result of his choice, something God had "left" him to. Clearly God could not have left Satan to something He Himself was causing.

Regarding the contradiction question, where is it you see the possible contradiction?


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: What is the inevitable of result of sin? [Re: Tom] #120091
10/04/09 04:20 PM
10/04/09 04:20 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
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Tom, in the "preceding paragraph" she quoted the Bible where God says, "I will destroy thee". Then she goes on to explain how God will "destroy" sinners by saying, His "very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them." It is "the terrible light of His presence", His glorious presence, that will cause them to suffer and die. As you say, there is nothing arbitrary about it. What is clear to me is sin alone is not what causes them to suffer and die.

The following two insights seem contradictory:

1. The loyal angels "set before them the inevitable result" - "He who had created them could overthrow their power and signally punish their rebellious daring."

2. "I will destroy thee, O covering cherub" . . . At the beginning of the great controversy, the angels did not understand this.

In the first quote, the loyal angels explained to the disloyal angels the inevitable results of sin, namely, God will punish them. In the second quote, the loyal angels did not understand that God would destroy the disloyal angels.

Re: What is the inevitable of result of sin? [Re: Mountain Man] #120105
10/05/09 03:25 AM
10/05/09 03:25 AM
Tom  Offline
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Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
In DA 764, EGW explains that the wicked die as a result of their own choice. She repeats this some 9 times in a row. She contrasts this with the idea that God causes their death by an act of power depending on individual discretion (as of a judge).

She explains that had God "left" Satan to reap what he had sown, he would have perished. If God actually caused Satan do die by setting him on fire, this would hardly make sense.

Also she points out that had God allowed Satan to perish, his death would have been misunderstood. If God actually causes Satan's death by killing Him, this would hardly make sense either.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: What is the inevitable of result of sin? [Re: Tom] #120130
10/05/09 03:17 PM
10/05/09 03:17 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Who or what condemned sinners to death - the law! Who or what determined their penalty - the law! Who or what is required to enforce their penalty - God! Condemnation is the primary source of suffering. Without it, suffering would be impossible. To choose sin is to choose condemnation and suffering and death. However, death is a blessing. It is relief from suffering. There is, therefore, more to it than merely death.

The consequences of sinning and condemnation is suffering. God protects sinners from succumbing to the results of sinning by shielding them from the radiant firelight of His glorious presence. It is this that causes them to feel intense pain. Yes, sinners initially suffer to a degree each time they sin; but eventually they harden their hearts beyond being able to feel shame or sorrow. When they are resurrected, therefore, they must be punished. Exposure to God's unveiled presence will cause them to suffer according to their sinfulness.

Re: What is the inevitable of result of sin? [Re: Mountain Man] #120135
10/05/09 03:59 PM
10/05/09 03:59 PM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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The Orient
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
The consequences of sinning and condemnation is suffering.


This is the reason that the wicked are angered by the silent examples of the righteous who have done nothing to offend them. When they see the righteous, their conscience is pricked, and they suffer. Jesus aptly stated that when we are persecuted in situations like this, the people are not rejecting us, but God. It is God's character that the wicked oppose.

The more "on fire" the Christian, the more ire s/he will draw from the ungodly.

To use an illustration--

In Thailand, every year there is a grand, country-wide, water fight. It takes place on the Thai New Year, April 15, and the days before and after it. Everyone gets wet. In Chiangmai the entire city lines the streets with buckets of water, and trucks loaded with barrels of water cruise down the streets looking for some on the sidelines to douse. Some have special PVC-pipe syringe-like "squirters" that they fill in those barrels and aim more precisely at bystanders or passersby. Most of the participants draw their water from the warm canal, or from some lukewarm tap (April is the height of the Thai "hot season"). However, some of the pickups with barrels of water add ice to their barrels! When someone gets a jolt of ice water, it can radically change the vigor of their "return fire!" The ice-cold temperature contrasts so much with everything else, that it gets immediate attention from all contacted by it...and "furious" might be the right word, although, of course, it is all done in fun!

Similarly, though in a more serious sense, the wicked "suffer" emotionally by any glimpse of the pure character of God. It is not "fun" for them to see what they would rather not see. They love darkness rather than light.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: What is the inevitable of result of sin? [Re: Green Cochoa] #120157
10/05/09 10:24 PM
10/05/09 10:24 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
GC, you seem to be in agreement with Tom in that he thinks it is God's character, not the "terrible light" that radiates from Him, that will cause the wicked to suffer and die according to their sinfulness. Did I misunderstand you?

Re: What is the inevitable of result of sin? [Re: Mountain Man] #120158
10/05/09 10:26 PM
10/05/09 10:26 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
SDA
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
PS - The nationwide water fight sounds fun. I'd rather be doing that than fighting with the IRS on 15 April.

Re: What is the inevitable of result of sin? [Re: Mountain Man] #120171
10/06/09 01:57 PM
10/06/09 01:57 PM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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Joined: Apr 2008
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The Orient
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
GC, you seem to be in agreement with Tom in that he thinks it is God's character, not the "terrible light" that radiates from Him, that will cause the wicked to suffer and die according to their sinfulness. Did I misunderstand you?

Sort of. To me, saying "God is love" and saying "God is light" or "The law is a transcript of God's character" are all similar notions: each of these concept pairs is inseparable. "In him is no darkness at all" (1 John 1:5, KJV); God is always love; and the law is always a transcript of His character.

In the same way, I see the "glory" of God as His character, as illustrated in the law, and also illustrated in the light. Light symbolizes truth, which is but a communication of the law. "Thy righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, and thy law is the truth." (Psalm 119:142) This "law of truth" (Malachi 2:6) is "light." The law is God's glory. The light is so exceedingly bright, that it consumes darkness (error) as a flame of fire.

In other words, I see the following relationship:

love = law = God's character = God's glory = light = consuming fire

Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD: (Deuteronomy 6:4)

God is love. (1 John 4:8 & 16)
... love is the fulfilling of the law. (Romans 13:10)
The law reveals the attributes of God's character... {DA 762.1}
...we by faith...see God's glory in his law.... {ST, October 17, 1892 par. 5}
...God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. (1 John 1:5)
For our God is a consuming fire. (Hebrews 12:29)

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
We are to put into practice the precepts of the law, and thus have righteousness before us; the rearward will be God's glory. The light of the righteousness of Christ will be our front guard, and the glory of the Lord will be our rearward. ... {1SM 99.4}


Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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