Tom, please address 120795.

The context of the statement, "Scripture often presents God as doing that which He permits" are acts which appear to be contrary to God's character, such as lying, or acting violently. So the question is if the principle is a universal one, which explains all the cases where God apparently acted contrary to His character, or only some of them. Let's assume it only covers some of these cases.

If only some of these cases are covered, then we are constrained to use a different principle:

If inspiration says that God does something which is apparently contrary to His character, then God did do this thing, unless there's some other place in inspiration which says He didn't.

So when we read that God killed Saul, that means He did, unless we read somewhere else that He didn't. And so for sending the fiery serpents, destroying Jerusalem, and all the rest. We can except these from the principle that we should consider God to have done these things, because there's somewhere else which tells us to do so.

That's one approach.

Another approach would be that the principle does always apply that when Scripture says God does these things which are apparently contrary to God's character, like lying or doing violent things, then it should always be understood that God permitted these things to happen. God is being presented as doing that which He permits. God has explained to us, through inspiration, some of these cases (such as the ones I enumerated; God's killing Saul, moving David to number Israel, etc.) and from this explanation we can apply the principle to other cases, even though these are not specifically mentioned.

(I've assumed here that doing violent things is apparently contrary to God's character.)

I wrote a detailed post, and cross posted it, which laid out the issues I believe are important.



What?



I'm quite sure I've addressed this.



I wrote out an answer to this question on the other thread.



Not just eventually. At every moment. The effects may not be obvious, but they're there. The fact that they aren't immediately clear is one of the chief reasons the Great Controversy has progressed as it has.



Yes. I may have misread your intent. I'd say the "deceitfulness of sin" has to do with the impact that sin has on one in terms of deceiving him, whereas the "sinfulness of sin" would be more the impact of sin as a whole, not just that one aspect.



The inevitable result of sin is suffering and death. I've been saying this all along.



I didn't say this. I said this of a different passage, not the MB 116 passage.



People cannot sin with impunity.



What do you mean?



How could they do so?



What do you mean by physical presence?



The inevitable result of sin is death. Sin causes their death.



He doesn't leave them to reap the full result of their sin.



You mean Jesus? Or God? Neither Jesus, nor God, bears their sin in any sort of salvific way, if this is what you're asking.



Acts contrary to the moral law one commits that one is ignorant of, such as not keeping the Sabbath (assuming one doesn't know one should be doing this).

But if God tells someone else to lie or to act violently, this is somehow alright because He did not do it Himself?

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

This is a different issue. No, it's not all right because God did not it Himself. However, because of the hardness of people's hearts, God allows things which are not in accordance with His ideal will.

This is why the study of Christ's life is so important. In Christ's life we see God's ideal will revealed.

Tom,

Don't forget that "...the sayings of Christ are not a new revelation. The principles which he expounded were announced to Moses from the pillar of cloud, and to the prophets, who spoke and wrote as they were moved upon by the Holy Spirit."



We have the whole Bible revealing Christ to us.


Did God merely "allow" all these things? Stoning of Sabbath breakers? Did God not command this instead?

if (command != allow) then Tom = incorrect
else Tom = correct

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Yes, you have. However, you have also postulated as to how and why. You seem to think that it happens when God resurrects them and then forces them to revisit their sins in judgment, that He forces them to comprehend the contrast between their character and His, that the revelation of truth, love, mercy, and kindness causes them to suffer like Jesus did on the cross. Nevertheless, you not explained why they live on after revisiting their last sin. Neither have you explained what causes their heart to stop beating.

1. Do you think they will die of heart failure caused by a broken heart?
2. Do you think the presence of the radiant light of God will cause them to die?
3. Do you think fire from above and below will cause them to die?
4. Do you think comprehending the truth will cause them to die of heart failure?

They might as well have been. Until Christ came, they weren't understood.



According to the SOP, the "whole purpose" of Christ mission was the revelation of God's character. This was the means by which man was to be set right and kept right with God.

God's character was misunderstood. It still is.

To some extent.



No, I haven't said this. Perhaps you'd like to quote something I did say?



I've said I don't feel any need to go beyond DA 764. I've said this several times now.



I haven't said any of these things.

I think you're focusing on things that aren't important. I wrote a detailed post on what I think is important. I'm disappointed you aren't discussing that post.

Tom, I complied this list based on things you posted on the "suffering of the lost" thread. Does this reflect what you believe causes sinners to suffer and to die?

1. God reveals His mercy, kindness, and love in small doses, which is healing for us, if we respond.

2. Sin causes sinners to separate from God, who alone is the source of life, and they perish.

3. The suffering of the wicked comes as a consequence of their own choice.

4. The suffering of the wicked is due to their selfishness.

5. Sin causes the wicked to suffer.

6. Sin causes sinners to feel lost, hopeless, and abandoned by God.

7. The rejection of truth hardens and destroys sinners.

8. The wicked do not choose to be resurrected and or to revisit their sins in judgment.

9. The wicked do not revisit their sins, one at a time, and they do not experience shame and guilt increasing in intensity.

10. As the wicked comprehend more fully the contrast between their character and God's they do not experience emotional pain and agony increasing exponentially.

11. The revelation and comprehension of truth, love, mercy, and kindness does not reach unbearable levels, nor does it cause their heart to fail or cause them to die eternally.

12. Sin is what causes death.

13. God destroys sinners by being nice to them.

14. The principles of mercy, kindness, and love are the means by which God destroys sinners.

15. The full revelation of God's character, which is His kindness, mercy, and love will destroy sinners.

16. God reveals His character through Jesus Christ; His kindness, mercy, and love; His goodness. This is how He destroys.