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Re: What is the inevitable of result of sin?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#120252
10/08/09 04:20 AM
10/08/09 04:20 AM
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Active Member 2012
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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M: We know the wicked will die. We the know inevitable result of sin is death. But what you haven't explained is what you think will cause them 1) to suffer and 2) to die.
T: I've mentioned both DA 108 and DA 764 to explain this. Also GC 542-543 comes to mind.
M:Why do you think these passages explain what will cause the wicked to suffer and to die. DA 108, as I've discusses many times, brings out that the light of the glory of God, which is the revelation of God's character, gives life to the righteous, while slaying the wicked. GC 542-543 explains in more detail the thought expressed, in regards to how heaven would be torture for the wicked, and their exclusion from heaven is voluntary to themselves. DA 764 also speaks of how the wicked choose to die. Here's something from Ty Gibson: "The second death brings the soul face-to-face with the full, ugly reality of one's sin, untempered by any sense of divine mercy. Sin, once committed, is an existing reality in the mind. It is on record in the conscience and must be resolved either by forgiveness or by suffering. Forgiveness is possible only by means of embracing God's merciful love. Suffering is the only alternative to forgiveness, which is why God can only forgive by means of enduring in Himself the suffering inherent in sin. The weight of sin's terrible condemnation crushes out the vital life forces of the soul. All human beings are sinners. Therefore, all are under condemnation. That condemnation will eventually, ultimately impose an unbearable shame upon those who minds refuse to see the healing reality of God's pardoning love. A conscious sense of God's love and acceptance is the only power capable of neutralizing the power of sin and preventing from destroying the soul. In order to grasp what the Bible means when it says, "the books were opened...and the dead were judged," try to imagine the unimaginable. Try to imagine what it would be like if you were made perfectly conscious of every sin you've ever committed--every wrong thought and feeling and action; perfect awareness, all at once, with every ugly detail staring at your inner soul with no way of escape. Then add to that horrendous picture an absolute absence of mercy--no concept of forgiveness; no sense of acceptance; no picture of a God who freely and eagerly pardons all sin. What would that moment in time be like for you? I know what it would be like for me. There are no words adequate to describe the mind-shattering ordeal. Such is the nature of that death which is the full wages paid by sin. The only reason we have never had to face the full potency of our guilt is because the plan of salvation, set into motion by a loving Creator, has erected a veil of mercy in the human conscience to act as a buffer to preserve us from sin's full effect. He has held at bay our suffering by forgiving us at the expense of His own suffering in Christ Jesus. Revelation 20 pictures the wicked gathered around God's throne. They are judged or made conscious by the books which have chronicled every sin they have every committed. By some divinely chosen method, perhaps a great video-screen-like panorama stretching across the sky, every hardened rebel will the part he or she has played in the great war between good and evil. Every deed of their lives will be etched with vivid clarity upon their mind's eye as with letters of fire. The blazing light of infinite love will clash in their souls with the dark ugliness of sin. The striking contrast will burn with an internal fire hotter and more terrible than any literal flame upon the flesh. (Ty Gibson; See With New Eyes)" You used to say revisiting their sins, one at a time, is what will cause them to suffer and die. It seems you think they can be exposed to the radiant firelight of God's unveiled presence without suffering any direct physical effects. "Radiant firelight" is your idea. I've never seen this expression used in inspiration. Also, it seems to continue the thought you have of the issue being a physical one rather than a spiritual one. You also seem to think any physical effects they might experience will be indirectly caused by the emotional agony they feel as they revisit their sins in judgment. Hopefully the explanation from Ty will help you to understand my view. Any emotional agony they experience will be tainted with sin. It will be so far from what Jesus felt on the cross as to be opposite in the extreme. And yet the SOP tells us that Christ felt the anguish the wicked will feel. The effect of revisiting one sin in judgment would have been enough to cause Adam unimaginable anguish ending in instant death. Why do you think this? Unless, of course, God works supernaturally to prevent it. But I hear you saying sinners will be able to endure revisiting millions of sins in judgment before succumbing to death. How will such a thing be possible? Why won't revisiting their first sin cause them to suffer and die? This is something you haven't addressed yet (although you've been asked several times). What dynamics do you think will be at work preventing them from dying prematurely (before they revisit their last sin)? You can read what Ty said, and see if that makes sense. Also, why does the GC describe them surviving the judgment of their sins so much so that God must rain down and raise up fire to arrest them in their attempts to kill each other? If, as you say, revisiting their sins is what will cause them to die, why are they very much alive afterward? Ellen describes it in the following manner: This is a good question. I'd like to discuss this with Ty sometime. I have a couple of ideas, but I think I'll keep them to myself for the time being. To recap the general principles I see: a.The suffering and death which the wicked experience is the result of their sin, as opposed to an arbitrary (as in DA 764, "by individual discretion, as by a judge") process God imposes upon them. b.Jesus Christ tasted, or suffered, the second death. He felt the anguish the wicked will feel when mercy no longer pleads for the guilty race. He revealed the nature of the second death. c.Had God left Satan and his followers to reap the full result of their sin, they would have perished. This statement makes clear that their death is not something God does to them, since one could hardly say God "left" Satan to something He did to him. d.The principles of kindness, mercy and love are present in the judgment. e.The judgment is for the benefit of the wicked. f.The exclusion of the wicked is voluntary with themselves. g.The wicked so ruin their characters that God's mere presence to them is a consuming fire (Note: it's their character which causes the problem, not their flesh).
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: What is the inevitable of result of sin?
[Re: Tom]
#120253
10/08/09 05:27 AM
10/08/09 05:27 AM
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
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...hotter and more terrible than any literal flame upon the flesh. Tom, You profusely deny that God will be so terrible as to use fire on the lost. But here you are advocating worse? You are trying to ridicule the idea of literal flames in order to impose upon the wicked something hotter and more terrible? And then you have the audacity to tell those of us who believe in real fire that we should never be put into a position of power where someone's punishment would need to be decided? (Nevermind the fact that no suggestion of seeking any such power has ever been made here.) What kind of "kindness, mercy, and love" would need to be "terrible?"  You seem to put yourself in an unenviable position in this discussion of trying to claim both sides of the argument as your own while at the same time saying each of these sides is incongruent. Blessings, Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: What is the inevitable of result of sin?
[Re: Tom]
#120264
10/08/09 04:19 PM
10/08/09 04:19 PM
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M: We know the wicked will die. We the know inevitable result of sin is death. But what you haven't explained is what you think will cause them 1) to suffer and 2) to die.
T: I've mentioned both DA 108 and DA 764 to explain this. Also GC 542-543 comes to mind.
M: Why do you think these passages explain what will cause the wicked to suffer and to die.
T: DA 108, as I've discusses many times, brings out that the light of the glory of God, which is the revelation of God's character, gives life to the righteous, while slaying the wicked.
GC 542-543 explains in more detail the thought expressed, in regards to how heaven would be torture for the wicked, and their exclusion from heaven is voluntary to themselves. DA 764 also speaks of how the wicked choose to die. How do you envision the fact God possesses righteous traits and attributes of character causing resurrected sinners to suffer and to die? How does character kill? T: Here's something from Ty Gibson:
"The second death brings the soul face-to-face with the full, ugly reality of one's sin, untempered by any sense of divine mercy. Sin, once committed, is an existing reality in the mind. It is on record in the conscience and must be resolved either by forgiveness or by suffering. Forgiveness is possible only by means of embracing God's merciful love. Suffering is the only alternative to forgiveness, which is why God can only forgive by means of enduring in Himself the suffering inherent in sin.
The weight of sin's terrible condemnation crushes out the vital life forces of the soul. All human beings are sinners. Therefore, all are under condemnation. That condemnation will eventually, ultimately impose an unbearable shame upon those who minds refuse to see the healing reality of God's pardoning love. A conscious sense of God's love and acceptance is the only power capable of neutralizing the power of sin and preventing from destroying the soul.
In order to grasp what the Bible means when it says, "the books were opened...and the dead were judged," try to imagine the unimaginable. Try to imagine what it would be like if you were made perfectly conscious of every sin you've ever committed--every wrong thought and feeling and action; perfect awareness, all at once, with every ugly detail staring at your inner soul with no way of escape. Then add to that horrendous picture an absolute absence of mercy--no concept of forgiveness; no sense of acceptance; no picture of a God who freely and eagerly pardons all sin.
What would that moment in time be like for you? I know what it would be like for me. There are no words adequate to describe the mind-shattering ordeal. Such is the nature of that death which is the full wages paid by sin. The only reason we have never had to face the full potency of our guilt is because the plan of salvation, set into motion by a loving Creator, has erected a veil of mercy in the human conscience to act as a buffer to preserve us from sin's full effect. He has held at bay our suffering by forgiving us at the expense of His own suffering in Christ Jesus.
Revelation 20 pictures the wicked gathered around God's throne. They are judged or made conscious by the books which have chronicled every sin they have every committed. By some divinely chosen method, perhaps a great video-screen-like panorama stretching across the sky, every hardened rebel will the part he or she has played in the great war between good and evil. Every deed of their lives will be etched with vivid clarity upon their mind's eye as with letters of fire. The blazing light of infinite love will clash in their souls with the dark ugliness of sin. The striking contrast will burn with an internal fire hotter and more terrible than any literal flame upon the flesh. (Ty Gibson; See With New Eyes)" Taking a closer look at Ty's insights: Sin “is on record in the conscience and must be resolved either by forgiveness or by suffering.” How does suffering resolve sin? “The weight of sin's terrible condemnation crushes out the vital life forces of the soul.” Why doesn’t this kind of suffering happen when we sin? “A conscious sense of God's love and acceptance is the only power capable of neutralizing the power of sin and preventing from destroying the soul.” Why is it possible to harden our hearts beyond being able to suffer? “. . . what it would be like if you were made perfectly conscious of every sin you've ever committed”. How will God make this happen? How and why will it be any different than the day they committed them? Why will they suffer so sorely for their sins in judgment but didn’t when they committed them? How will God make them perfectly conscious of every sin in a way that will drastically affect them differently than it did when they committed them? “The only reason we have never had to face the full potency of our guilt is because the plan of salvation, set into motion by a loving Creator, has erected a veil of mercy in the human conscience to act as a buffer to preserve us from sin's full effect.” Where in the Bible or the SOP is this idea taught? The reason we do not die the instant we sin is because God is mercifully veiling the radiant firelight of His presence. It is this light that will cause the wicked to suffer and to die. “He has held at bay our suffering by forgiving us at the expense of His own suffering in Christ Jesus.” Where in the Bible or the SOP is this idea taught? Jesus made pardon possible when He paid our sin debt of death; however, He forgives no one until they repent and obey God. Forgiveness benefits no one until they repent and obey God. Only then can they escape the crushing weight of their guilt and shame. “They are judged or made conscious by the books which have chronicled every sin they have every committed.” Again, how and why will revisiting their sins in judgment affect them differently than when they committed them? Why do you think sin hardened hearts are capable of such suffering? “The blazing light of infinite love will clash in their souls with the dark ugliness of sin.” Again, what makes you think sin hardened sinners possess the ability to have such an experience? “The striking contrast will burn with an internal fire hotter and more terrible than any literal flame upon the flesh.” Why do you think a loving God will resurrect sinners knowing they will have such a horrible experience? Also, why do you think they can physically survive such an experience for several days? What prevents them from dying prematurely (before they finish revisiting their sins)? M: You used to say revisiting their sins, one at a time, is what will cause them to suffer and die. It seems you think they can be exposed to the radiant firelight of God's unveiled presence without suffering any direct physical effects.
T: "Radiant firelight" is your idea. I've never seen this expression used in inspiration. Also, it seems to continue the thought you have of the issue being a physical one rather than a spiritual one. I’ve quoted many passages that describe the painful effect the radiant light of God has on sinners. Did you read them? “His countenance outshines the dazzling brightness of the noonday sun.” “The light of the sun will be superseded by a radiance which is not painfully dazzling, yet which immeasurably surpasses the brightness of our noontide. The glory of God and the Lamb floods the Holy City with unfading light. The redeemed walk in the sunless glory of perpetual day.” “Christ, the Light of the world, veiled the dazzling splendor of His divinity and came to live as a man among men, that they might, without being consumed, become acquainted with their Creator.” Here's more quotes: The people perceive that it is the voice of Moses; that, although he is transformed and glorified, he is Moses yet. They tell him that they cannot look into his face, for the radiant light in his countenance is exceedingly painful to them. His face is like the sun; they cannot look upon it. When Moses finds out the difficulty, he covers his face with a veil. He does not plead that the light and glory upon his face is the reflection of God's glory that He placed upon him, and that the people must bear it; but he covers his glory. The sinfulness of the people make it painful to behold his glorified face. So will it be when the saints of God are glorified just previous to the second appearing of our Lord. The wicked will retire and shrink away from the sight, for the glory in the countenances of the saints will pain them. But all this glory upon Moses, all this divine stamp seen upon God's humble servant, is forgotten. {3T 354.3}
During that long time spent in communion with God, the face of Moses had reflected the glory of the divine Presence; unknown to himself his face shown with a dazzling light when he descended from the mountain. Such a light illumined the countenance of Stephen when brought before his judges; "and all that sat in the council, looking steadfastly on him, saw his face as it had been the face of an angel." Acts 6:15. Aaron as well as the people shrank away from Moses, and "they were afraid to come nigh him." Seeing their confusion and terror, but ignorant of the cause, he urged them to come near. He held out to them the pledge of God's reconciliation, and assured them of His restored favor. They perceived in his voice nothing but love and entreaty, and at last one ventured to approach him. Too awed to speak, he silently pointed to the countenance of Moses, and then toward heaven. The great leader understood his meaning. In their conscious guilt, feeling themselves still under the divine displeasure, they could not endure the heavenly light, which, had they been obedient to God, would have filled them with joy. There is fear in guilt. The soul that is free from sin will not wish to hide from the light of heaven. {PP 329.5} You seem to deny the light radiating from God is literal. The quotes above make it clear that the light radiating from God is very much literal. It would consume the flesh right off sinners were it not veiled. M: You also seem to think any physical effects they might experience will be indirectly caused by the emotional agony they feel as they revisit their sins in judgment.
T: Hopefully the explanation from Ty will help you to understand my view. I think what I wrote above accurately reflects what you believe. Do you agree? M: Any emotional agony they experience will be tainted with sin. It will be so far from what Jesus felt on the cross as to be opposite in the extreme.
T: And yet the SOP tells us that Christ felt the anguish the wicked will feel. Here’s what she wrote about it: The first impulse of the disciples was to go to Him; but He had bidden them tarry there, watching unto prayer. When Jesus came to them, He found them still sleeping. Again He had felt a longing for companionship, for some words from His disciples which would bring relief, and break the spell of darkness that well-nigh overpowered Him. But their eyes were heavy; "neither wist they what to answer Him." His presence aroused them. They saw His face marked with the bloody sweat of agony, and they were filled with fear. His anguish of mind they could not understand. "His visage was so marred more than any man, and His form more than the sons of men." Isa. 52:14. {DA 690.1}
Upon Christ as our substitute and surety was laid the iniquity of us all. He was counted a transgressor, that He might redeem us from the condemnation of the law. The guilt of every descendant of Adam was pressing upon His heart. The wrath of God against sin, the terrible manifestation of His displeasure because of iniquity, filled the soul of His Son with consternation. All His life Christ had been publishing to a fallen world the good news of the Father's mercy and pardoning love. Salvation for the chief of sinners was His theme. But now with the terrible weight of guilt He bears, He cannot see the Father's reconciling face. The withdrawal of the divine countenance from the Saviour in this hour of supreme anguish pierced His heart with a sorrow that can never be fully understood by man. So great was this agony that His physical pain was hardly felt. {DA 753.1}
Satan with his fierce temptations wrung the heart of Jesus. The Saviour could not see through the portals of the tomb. Hope did not present to Him His coming forth from the grave a conqueror, or tell Him of the Father's acceptance of the sacrifice. He feared that sin was so offensive to God that Their separation was to be eternal. Christ felt the anguish which the sinner will feel when mercy shall no longer plead for the guilty race. It was the sense of sin, bringing the Father's wrath upon Him as man's substitute, that made the cup He drank so bitter, and broke the heart of the Son of God. {DA 753.2}
Some have limited views of the atonement. They think that Christ suffered only a small portion of the penalty of the law of God; they suppose that, while the wrath of God was felt by His dear Son, He had, through all His painful sufferings, the evidence of His Father's love and acceptance; that the portals of the tomb before Him were illuminated with bright hope, and that He had the abiding evidence of His future glory. Here is a great mistake. Christ's keenest anguish was a sense of His Father's displeasure. His mental agony because of this was of such intensity that man can have but faint conception of it. {AG 171.2} It sounds like you believe Jesus and resurrected sinners suffer the same agony for the same reasons. Please post an inspired description of the wicked suffering the same agony for the same reasons. M: The effect of revisiting one sin in judgment would have been enough to cause Adam unimaginable anguish ending in instant death.
T: Why do you think this? Do you disagree with it? If so, why? M: Unless, of course, God works supernaturally to prevent it. But I hear you saying sinners will be able to endure revisiting millions of sins in judgment before succumbing to death. How will such a thing be possible? Why won't revisiting their first sin cause them to suffer and die? This is something you haven't addressed yet (although you've been asked several times). What dynamics do you think will be at work preventing them from dying prematurely (before they revisit their last sin)
T: You can read what Ty said, and see if that makes sense. The passage you posted didn’t address this point. Please explain what you believe. M: Also, why does the GC describe them surviving the judgment of their sins so much so that God must rain down and raise up fire to arrest them in their attempts to kill each other? If, as you say, revisiting their sins is what will cause them to die, why are they very much alive afterward? Ellen describes it in the following manner:
T: This is a good question. I'd like to discuss this with Ty sometime. I have a couple of ideas, but I think I'll keep them to myself for the time being. Avoiding this question casts your concept in an unfavorable light. It’s a lose end that unravels your theory. Refusing to explain why you think the wicked possess the physical ability to survive revisiting their sins without dying prematurely is another weaknesses of your view. T: To recap the general principles I see:
a.The suffering and death which the wicked experience is the result of their sin, as opposed to an arbitrary (as in DA 764, "by individual discretion, as by a judge") process God imposes upon them.
b.Jesus Christ tasted, or suffered, the second death. He felt the anguish the wicked will feel when mercy no longer pleads for the guilty race. He revealed the nature of the second death.
c.Had God left Satan and his followers to reap the full result of their sin, they would have perished. This statement makes clear that their death is not something God does to them, since one could hardly say God "left" Satan to something He did to him.
d.The principles of kindness, mercy and love are present in the judgment.
e.The judgment is for the benefit of the wicked.
f.The exclusion of the wicked is voluntary with themselves.
g.The wicked so ruin their characters that God's mere presence to them is a consuming fire (Note: it's their character which causes the problem, not their flesh). A. Do you think such suffering would happen if God were not present? B. Do you think the wicked will suffer the same way and for the same reasons Jesus suffered? C. The English language allows for the explanation you reject. D. You wrote, “mercy no longer pleads for the guilty race.” E. How does it benefit them? F. They attempt to take New Jerusalem by force. G. How will their character cause them to suffer and to die?
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Re: What is the inevitable of result of sin?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#120273
10/08/09 10:23 PM
10/08/09 10:23 PM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Regarding the questions, there's too many to address. Hopefully what Ty wrote is clear. You seem to deny the light radiating from God is literal. The quotes above make it clear that the light radiating from God is very much literal. It would consume the flesh right off sinners were it not veiled. Like Raiders of the Lost Ark! M: You also seem to think any physical effects they might experience will be indirectly caused by the emotional agony they feel as they revisit their sins in judgment.
T: Hopefully the explanation from Ty will help you to understand my view.
I think what I wrote above accurately reflects what you believe. Do you agree? I'm sorry, but I don't know what you're referring to. What Ty wrote accurately reflects my view, which is probably quite a bit clearer than anything your or I could write. Regarding Christ's feeling the anguish the wicked will feel, she says: Satan with his fierce temptations wrung the heart of Jesus. The Saviour could not see through the portals of the tomb. Hope did not present to Him His coming forth from the grave a conqueror, or tell Him of the Father's acceptance of the sacrifice. He feared that sin was so offensive to God that Their separation was to be eternal. Christ felt the anguish which the sinner will feel when mercy shall no longer plead for the guilty race. It was the sense of sin, bringing the Father's wrath upon Him as man's substitute, that made the cup He drank so bitter, and broke the heart of the Son of God. {DA 753.2} This seems clear to me. She says, "Christ felt the anguish which the sinner will feel when mercy shall no longer plead for the guilty race." It doesn't seem to me that anything needs to be added to this. M: The effect of revisiting one sin in judgment would have been enough to cause Adam unimaginable anguish ending in instant death.
T: Why do you think this?
M:Do you disagree with it? If so, why? It would depend upon why you said what you said, which is why I asked you why you thought this. M: Also, why does the GC describe them surviving the judgment of their sins so much so that God must rain down and raise up fire to arrest them in their attempts to kill each other? If, as you say, revisiting their sins is what will cause them to die, why are they very much alive afterward? Ellen describes it in the following manner:
T: This is a good question. I'd like to discuss this with Ty sometime. I have a couple of ideas, but I think I'll keep them to myself for the time being.
MM:Avoiding this question casts your concept in an unfavorable light. It’s a lose end that unravels your theory. Why? Refusing to explain why you think the wicked possess the physical ability to survive revisiting their sins without dying prematurely is another weaknesses of your view. Why? A. Do you think such suffering would happen if God were not present? What do you mean by not being present? Do you mean existing like we do today? If so, suffering would exist, because it exists today. Suffering is inevitable where sin is present. One cannot live under the principle of "me first" and not suffer. B. Do you think the wicked will suffer the same way and for the same reasons Jesus suffered? As the SOP put it, Christ felt the anguish the wicked will feel when mercy no longer pleads for the guilty race. So Christ felt the anguish they will feel. The reason for feeling this anguish is sin. The reasons are different in that Christ voluntarily took our sin upon Him, whereas the wicked suffer for their own sin. C. The English language allows for the explanation you reject. Not in a logical sense. That is: Had God left Satan and his followers to reap the full result of their sin, they would have perished. This statement makes clear that their death is not something God does to them, since one could hardly say God "left" Satan to something He did to him. In addition, she points out that had God done this, it would not have been clear that Satan's death was due to his sin, which, if things were the way you are thinking (i.e. Satan dies because God kills him) they wouldn't be. So the idea you're suggesting doesn't make sense. There would have been no more misunderstanding had God killed Satan right away than after Christ died. In either case it would have been perfectly clear that God killed him. D. You wrote, “mercy no longer pleads for the guilty race.” I didn't write this. I quoted it. I quoted the other statement as well. One is from GC 542, and the other DA 753. E. How does it benefit them? Good question! Short answer, by making known the truth to them. F. They attempt to take New Jerusalem by force. Before God's character is revealed to them. The context explains this. G. How will their character cause them to suffer and to die? What I quoted from Ty explains this. I wanted to mention something in regards to the glory of God and light. In the case of Moses, his face was glowing, so much so that it needed to be veiled. This cannot be explained as the effect of a bright light shining on his face, because in this case, as soon as the light which had been shining stopped shining, his face would have stopped reflecting that light. Therefore the light shining from Moses' face was not due to a physical light.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: What is the inevitable of result of sin?
[Re: Tom]
#120282
10/09/09 02:28 AM
10/09/09 02:28 AM
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SDA
Active Member 2021
5500+ Member
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
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Regarding the questions, there's too many to address. Hopefully what Ty wrote is clear. Could you answer just this one question: What kind of "kindness, mercy, and love" would need to be "terrible?" Blessings, Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: What is the inevitable of result of sin?
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#120308
10/10/09 01:11 AM
10/10/09 01:11 AM
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It seems that the Atonement Models thread went off-topic into areas that are best addressed in this thread. Here is the last off-topic post from that thread And IIRC, you say that Jerusalem was destroyed, not by God's active working, but by the removal of His protection, and the Romans did their deed while God was not protecting Jerusalem. Right?
How is this "the same sense" as the eternal slaying of the wicked? Does God remove His protection from them, then the light of His glory - Jesus - comes and does the deed? Is there a third party involved here, like in the case of Jerusalem? Do you believe that Jesus - the revealer of God's glory - is the active agent in the slaying of the wicked, or will there be a third party, like the Romans, to execute this work? Please clarify. The same sense is that God is presented as doing that which He permits. Regarding the active agent question, I think sin is the active agent which causes death. The "deed" is nothing more than a revelation of God's goodness and love. There's no reason that revealing love and goodness should result in anyone's death, but such is the perverse power of sin. Let's review the quote: "The light of the glory of God, which imparts life to the righteous, will slay the wicked."Parse that and you will find only two verbs: imparts, slay. Whatever "deed" is being done in this context, it is either imparting or slaying. You say God is presented as doing that which He permits. We agree that that is sometimes the case. But your application of that principle here seems to be misplaced. In particular, you say God is "permitting" the deed to be done. So who or what is God permitting to impart or slay? Is it a third party? Or is it God Himself? Beyond that, you say "sin is the active agent which causes death." The quote says the "light of the glory of God" does the slaying. That would mean: sin = light of the glory of God. I disagree. Let's continue this line of thought below. A:Certainly, sin makes one unable to live in God's presence. However, looking at the quote that specifies the power that slays the wicked, the "light of the glory of God" CANNOT in any way be construed as describing sin. In this quote where EGW tells us what slays the wicked, she is NOT talking about sin doing the slaying. Do you agree? I think she had the same thing in mind as here: By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them. and even in the quote itself, if you look at what immediately follows, it says: In the time of John the Baptist, Christ was about to appear as the revealer of the character of God. His very presence would make manifest to men their sin. Only as they were willing to be purged from sin could they enter into fellowship with Him. Only the pure in heart could abide in His presence. Let's review the quote: "The light of the glory of God, which imparts life to the righteous, will slay the wicked."Let's look at one of your new quotes: "The glory of Him who is love will destroy them."What I am rejecting is your invariable contention that only sin destroys. We see here, in quotes you have provided, that God's glory is quite destructive under certain circumstances. I am trying to get you to see that there is more than what you are presenting. Sin is bad, and makes one susceptible to destruction. But it is God's glory that slays the wicked as well as gives life to the righteous. The root cause of death is sin, which is why she writes that death is "the inevitable result of sin." James explains this by saying that sin, when it is finished, brings forth death. When Adam at the forbidden fruit, he was a sinner - an unrepentant sinner at that. But he didn't die right there and then. Satan will be on earth for a thousand years, with nothing to do but sulk. He is an unrepentant sinner. But he won't die right there and then. Yes, sin is necessary for death, but there is another ingredient needed. And it is in red above. To get to the beginning of that off-topic excursion, click here: Atonement ModelsLet's continue that discussion in this thread.
By God's grace,
Arnold
There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
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Re: What is the inevitable of result of sin?
[Re: asygo]
#120312
10/10/09 05:08 PM
10/10/09 05:08 PM
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OP
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Joined: Oct 2000
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Southwest USA
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Tom, the quote from Ty you posted did not address my questions. Nor did it explain your point of view in light of my questions. I still have no idea what you think will cause resurrected sinners to suffer and to die. You seem to be saying comprehending the contrast between their character and God's is what will cause them to suffer and to die. If so, why do you think they are capable of comprehending this contrast? And, why do you think it will result in suffering and death? Also, why do you think they will be able to survive revisiting their sins without dying prematurely? What will prevent them from dying after revisiting their first sin? PS - If you're going to insist Ty's quote explains your view and answers my questions you owe it to the rest of us to address the following concerns: Taking a closer look at Ty's insights:
Sin “is on record in the conscience and must be resolved either by forgiveness or by suffering.” How does suffering resolve sin?
“The weight of sin's terrible condemnation crushes out the vital life forces of the soul.” Why doesn’t this kind of suffering happen when we sin?
“A conscious sense of God's love and acceptance is the only power capable of neutralizing the power of sin and preventing from destroying the soul.” Why is it possible to harden our hearts beyond being able to suffer?
“. . . what it would be like if you were made perfectly conscious of every sin you've ever committed”. How will God make this happen? How and why will it be any different than the day they committed them? Why will they suffer so sorely for their sins in judgment but didn’t when they committed them? How will God make them perfectly conscious of every sin in a way that will drastically affect them differently than it did when they committed them?
“The only reason we have never had to face the full potency of our guilt is because the plan of salvation, set into motion by a loving Creator, has erected a veil of mercy in the human conscience to act as a buffer to preserve us from sin's full effect.” Where in the Bible or the SOP is this idea taught? The reason we do not die the instant we sin is because God is mercifully veiling the radiant firelight of His presence. It is this light that will cause the wicked to suffer and to die.
“He has held at bay our suffering by forgiving us at the expense of His own suffering in Christ Jesus.” Where in the Bible or the SOP is this idea taught? Jesus made pardon possible when He paid our sin debt of death; however, He forgives no one until they repent and obey God. Forgiveness benefits no one until they repent and obey God. Only then can they escape the crushing weight of their guilt and shame.
“They are judged or made conscious by the books which have chronicled every sin they have every committed.” Again, how and why will revisiting their sins in judgment affect them differently than when they committed them? Why do you think sin hardened hearts are capable of such suffering?
“The blazing light of infinite love will clash in their souls with the dark ugliness of sin.” Again, what makes you think sin hardened sinners possess the ability to have such an experience?
“The striking contrast will burn with an internal fire hotter and more terrible than any literal flame upon the flesh.” Why do you think a loving God will resurrect sinners knowing they will have such a horrible experience? Also, why do you think they can physically survive such an experience for several days? What prevents them from dying prematurely (before they finish revisiting their sins)?
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Re: What is the inevitable of result of sin?
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#120328
10/11/09 03:28 AM
10/11/09 03:28 AM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Regarding the questions, there's too many to address. Hopefully what Ty wrote is clear. Could you answer just this one question: What kind of "kindness, mercy, and love" would need to be "terrible?" Blessings, Green Cochoa. What?
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: What is the inevitable of result of sin?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#120329
10/11/09 03:30 AM
10/11/09 03:30 AM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Tom, the quote from Ty you posted did not address my questions. Nor did it explain your point of view in light of my questions. I still have no idea what you think will cause resurrected sinners to suffer and to die. You seem to be saying comprehending the contrast between their character and God's is what will cause them to suffer and to die. If so, why do you think they are capable of comprehending this contrast? And, why do you think it will result in suffering and death? Also, why do you think they will be able to survive revisiting their sins without dying prematurely? What will prevent them from dying after revisiting their first sin? PS - If you're going to insist Ty's quote explains your view and answers my questions you owe it to the rest of us to address the following concerns: Taking a closer look at Ty's insights:
Sin “is on record in the conscience and must be resolved either by forgiveness or by suffering.” How does suffering resolve sin?
“The weight of sin's terrible condemnation crushes out the vital life forces of the soul.” Why doesn’t this kind of suffering happen when we sin?
“A conscious sense of God's love and acceptance is the only power capable of neutralizing the power of sin and preventing from destroying the soul.” Why is it possible to harden our hearts beyond being able to suffer?
“. . . what it would be like if you were made perfectly conscious of every sin you've ever committed”. How will God make this happen? How and why will it be any different than the day they committed them? Why will they suffer so sorely for their sins in judgment but didn’t when they committed them? How will God make them perfectly conscious of every sin in a way that will drastically affect them differently than it did when they committed them?
“The only reason we have never had to face the full potency of our guilt is because the plan of salvation, set into motion by a loving Creator, has erected a veil of mercy in the human conscience to act as a buffer to preserve us from sin's full effect.” Where in the Bible or the SOP is this idea taught? The reason we do not die the instant we sin is because God is mercifully veiling the radiant firelight of His presence. It is this light that will cause the wicked to suffer and to die.
“He has held at bay our suffering by forgiving us at the expense of His own suffering in Christ Jesus.” Where in the Bible or the SOP is this idea taught? Jesus made pardon possible when He paid our sin debt of death; however, He forgives no one until they repent and obey God. Forgiveness benefits no one until they repent and obey God. Only then can they escape the crushing weight of their guilt and shame.
“They are judged or made conscious by the books which have chronicled every sin they have every committed.” Again, how and why will revisiting their sins in judgment affect them differently than when they committed them? Why do you think sin hardened hearts are capable of such suffering?
“The blazing light of infinite love will clash in their souls with the dark ugliness of sin.” Again, what makes you think sin hardened sinners possess the ability to have such an experience?
“The striking contrast will burn with an internal fire hotter and more terrible than any literal flame upon the flesh.” Why do you think a loving God will resurrect sinners knowing they will have such a horrible experience? Also, why do you think they can physically survive such an experience for several days? What prevents them from dying prematurely (before they finish revisiting their sins)? This is too much, MM. Try asking a couple of questions, please, and I'll address those. Do you not understand what Ty was saying?
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: What is the inevitable of result of sin?
[Re: Tom]
#120335
10/11/09 05:58 AM
10/11/09 05:58 AM
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SDA
Active Member 2021
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
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Regarding the questions, there's too many to address. Hopefully what Ty wrote is clear. Could you answer just this one question: What kind of "kindness, mercy, and love" would need to be "terrible?" Blessings, Green Cochoa. What? Am I to presume you do not have an answer for why you believe what you believe on this point? or am I to presume my question is so muddled as to render it unintelligible? Perhaps I can rephrase slightly: What "kindness, mercy, and love" do you see in Ty's statement? "The blazing light of infinite love will clash in their souls with the dark ugliness of sin. The striking contrast will burn with an internal fire hotter and more terrible than any literal flame upon the flesh. (Ty Gibson; See With New Eyes)" Blessings, Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Here is the link to this week's Sabbath School Lesson Study and Discussion Material: Click Here
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