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Re: What is the inevitable of result of sin?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#120563
10/16/09 03:05 AM
10/16/09 03:05 AM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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PS - I believe sinners are able to sin with impunity simply because God is veiling His radiant firelight. But the moment God stops veiling His radiant firelight it will cause sinners to suffer and to die. Ellen describes it this way:
"If you cling to self, refusing to yield your will to God, you are choosing death. To sin, wherever found, God is a consuming fire. If you choose sin, and refuse to separate from it, the presence of God, which consumes sin, must consume you. {MB 62.1}
Since mathematical formulas are popular, I'll post two of my own:
Sin + the absence of God + probation = life
Sin + the presence of God + judgment = death I understand this. You see the problem as a physical one. The wicked have the wrong kind of flesh, so they can't satnd the firelight.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: What is the inevitable of result of sin?
[Re: Tom]
#120569
10/16/09 03:51 AM
10/16/09 03:51 AM
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SDA
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,583
California, USA
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If that's the case, then we have:
judgment = God's allowing sin to have the effect it always would have had, had God not been preventing it
Does that sound right to you? That's not all the judgment involves, but it does involve that. That sounds like God has been actively doing something to keep sinners alive. For example, God has been actively keeping Satan alive all this time, instead of letting sin's fatal effects take hold. Furthermore, it looks like there has never been a time, since sin entered, when God was not doing this preventive action. Does all that sound correct?
By God's grace,
Arnold
There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
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Re: What is the inevitable of result of sin?
[Re: asygo]
#120572
10/16/09 11:12 AM
10/16/09 11:12 AM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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That sounds like God has been actively doing something to keep sinners alive. For example, God has been actively keeping Satan alive all this time, instead of letting sin's fatal effects take hold. Yes. DA 764 brings this out. Furthermore, it looks like there has never been a time, since sin entered, when God was not doing this preventive action.
Does all that sound correct? Yes. If God allowed Satan and his followers to reap the full result of their sin, they would have perished, but it would not have appeared that the cause of their death was their own sin. So God had to allow sin to continue for two reasons: 1.So that the principles of sin could be seen (the cross was the ultimate demonstration of this). 2.So that the destruction of Satan and his followers would not be misunderstood as something God was doing to them (e.g. killing them), but as what it is truth was, the reaping of the results of their own choices and actions. DA 764 explains this.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: What is the inevitable of result of sin?
[Re: Tom]
#120573
10/16/09 11:24 AM
10/16/09 11:24 AM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Through the gospel, souls that are degraded and enslaved by Satan are to be redeemed to share the glorious liberty of the sons of God. God's purpose is not merely to deliver from the suffering that is the inevitable result of sin, but to save from sin itself. (MB 60) This brings out that not only is death the inevitable result of sin (DA 764), but so is suffering. (I)n his dealings with his creatures, God has maintained the principles of righteousness by revealing sin in its true character,--by demonstrating that its sure result is misery and death....God is the Lifegiver. From the beginning, his laws were ordained to give life. But sin broke in upon the order that God had established, and discord followed. As long as sin exists, suffering and death are inevitable. (YI 6/13/01) This one brings out that both suffering and death are inevitable results of sin.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: What is the inevitable of result of sin?
[Re: Tom]
#120581
10/16/09 03:02 PM
10/16/09 03:02 PM
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OP
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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M: Tom, you still haven't explained what God actually does to prevent sin from killing sinners.
T: Ty spoke of this. He spoke of the impact of the revelation of truth upon the conscience, etc. You didn't answer the question. M: But by working backward it is possible to deduce what you seem reluctant to say.
T: I quoted Ty. Please refrain from personal comments. The quote you posted doesn't address the question. M: Here's how: You say it is the revelation of truth during judgment that will cause sinners to suffer and to die. Therefore, you believe it is the withholding of truth that enables sinners to sin with impunity. But is it fair of God to judge someone on truth He withheld?
T: He doesn't judge someone on truth withheld, of course, but on truth revealed and rejected. When was the truth revealed and rejected - before or after the resurrection?
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Re: What is the inevitable of result of sin?
[Re: Tom]
#120582
10/16/09 03:15 PM
10/16/09 03:15 PM
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OP
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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Through the gospel, souls that are degraded and enslaved by Satan are to be redeemed to share the glorious liberty of the sons of God. God's purpose is not merely to deliver from the suffering that is the inevitable result of sin, but to save from sin itself. (MB 60) This brings out that not only is death the inevitable result of sin (DA 764), but so is suffering. If God had not intervened and prevented the inevitable results of sin, sinners would have perished instantly. They would not have lived long enough to sin again and again thus accumulating wrath and compounding their eventual pain and agony in the lake of fire. (I)n his dealings with his creatures, God has maintained the principles of righteousness by revealing sin in its true character,--by demonstrating that its sure result is misery and death....God is the Lifegiver. From the beginning, his laws were ordained to give life. But sin broke in upon the order that God had established, and discord followed. As long as sin exists, suffering and death are inevitable. (YI 6/13/01) This one brings out that both suffering and death are inevitable results of sin. Again, the reason there have been more than 6,000 years of sinning and suffering and dying is because God is preventing the inevitable results of sin, namely, death. Remember, death is the end of suffering. Preventing death, therefore, prolongs suffering. It also enables sinners to accumulate wrath and thereby compound the suffering they will eventually experience in the lake of fire.
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Re: What is the inevitable of result of sin?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#120593
10/16/09 10:44 PM
10/16/09 10:44 PM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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I don't know what point you're wishing to make. Is it that God is responsible for suffering? (This is in response to the post immediately above this one).
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: What is the inevitable of result of sin?
[Re: Tom]
#120608
10/17/09 02:10 AM
10/17/09 02:10 AM
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OP
SDA
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Active Member 2019
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Joined: Oct 2000
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Do you agree God is preventing sinners from dying the instant they sin? If so, how does He do it? What does He do to prevent it?
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Re: What is the inevitable of result of sin?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#120609
10/17/09 02:10 AM
10/17/09 02:10 AM
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OP
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
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Tom, please don't overlook 120581.
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Re: What is the inevitable of result of sin?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#120624
10/18/09 04:11 AM
10/18/09 04:11 AM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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M: Tom, you still haven't explained what God actually does to prevent sin from killing sinners.
T: Ty spoke of this. He spoke of the impact of the revelation of truth upon the conscience, etc. You didn't answer the question. M: But by working backward it is possible to deduce what you seem reluctant to say.
T: I quoted Ty. Please refrain from personal comments. The quote you posted doesn't address the question. M: Here's how: You say it is the revelation of truth during judgment that will cause sinners to suffer and to die. Therefore, you believe it is the withholding of truth that enables sinners to sin with impunity. But is it fair of God to judge someone on truth He withheld?
T: He doesn't judge someone on truth withheld, of course, but on truth revealed and rejected. When was the truth revealed and rejected - before or after the resurrection? First two, please consider what Ty wrote. Last one, what truth are you talking about? If it's the truth the lost are judged regarding, that's truth revealed to them before the resurrection.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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