As I've explained, EGW says the following:



Christ bears our guilt.

Where does Ellen say Jesus' bearing our guilt is what prevents us from dying the instant we sin? Also, does it mean sinners do not experience guilt when they sin? And, will guilt kill resurrected sinners in the lake of fire? If so, is it a form of takutsubo cardiomyopathy? In other words, do you think the wicked will die of emotional anguish? If not, what do you think will cause sinners to die?

Truth or guilt? Which one will kill them? And how?


I did. He didn't say anything about it in the quote you posted.


I merely repeated what you wrote. What truth are you talking about?


Why didn't it cause them to experience the physical pain and mental agony you describe before the resurrection?

MB 116. It's the existence of guilt that is crushing. Without any sin, there would be no guilt.



Not fully. This only happens at the judgment. Christ experienced this on the cross.



I have no desire to go beyond what's been revealed.



Truth and guilt aren't mutually exclusive; they go together. Ty spoke of the how.



When you've been convicted of sin, wasn't there agony and pain involved?

Tom, the inevitable result of sin is suffering and death. The absence of God prevents it. The suffering and death we experience now is not the inevitable result of sin. It is the inevitable result of the absence of God and the tree of life. The inevitable result of sin will be realized during judgment when sinners are exposed to the unveiled radiant light of God's presence. Divine light will consume and destroy them with their sins. "The light of the glory of God, which imparts life to the righteous, will slay the wicked."

I have no idea what you think will cause the wicked to suffer and to die.

MM, sin is based on selfishness. You can't live selfishly and not suffer. This has nothing to do with any tree.

Ellen wrote:

There was no possible hope for the redemption of those who had witnessed and enjoyed the inexpressible glory of heaven, and had seen the terrible majesty of God, and, in presence of all this glory, had rebelled against Him. There were no new and wonderful exhibitions of God's exalted power that could impress them so deeply as those they had already experienced. If they could rebel in the very presence of glory inexpressible, they could not be placed in a more favorable condition to be proved. There was no reserve force of power, nor were there any greater heights and depths of infinite glory to overpower their jealous doubts and rebellious murmuring. Their guilt and their punishment must be in proportion to their exalted privileges in the heavenly courts. {Con 21.2}

Fallen man, because of his guilt, could no longer come directly before God with his supplications; for his transgression of the divine law had placed an impassable barrier between the holy God and the transgressor. But a plan was devised that the sentence of death should rest upon a Substitute. In the plan of redemption there must be the shedding of blood, for death must come in consequence of man's sin. The beasts for sacrificial offerings were to prefigure Christ. In the slain victim, man was to see the fulfillment for the time being of God's word, "Thou shalt surely die." And the flowing of the blood from the victim would also signify an atonement. There was no virtue in the blood of animals; but the shedding of the blood of beasts was to point forward to a Redeemer who would one day come to the world and die for the sins of men. And thus Christ would fully vindicate His Father's law. {Con 21.3}

1. The moment angels rebelled against God was the moment they sinned.
2. The moment they sinned was the moment there was nothing God could do to save them.
3. Death must happen in consequence of sin.
4. Jesus paid our sin debt of death.
5. His death satisfied the death demands of law and justice.
6. His death vindicated the death demands of law and justice.

Sin-seared sinners sin with impunity all the time. They are unable to feel shame or guilt. "He maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust." "Having their conscience seared with a hot iron."

In the exercise of the longsuffering of God, He gives to nations a certain period of probation, but there is a point which, if they pass, there will be the visitation of God in His indignation. He will punish. The world has been advancing from one degree of contempt for God's law to another, and the prayer may be appropriate at this time, "It is time for thee, Lord, to work: for they have made void thy law" (Ps. 119:126). {3SM 396.3}

The forbearance that God has exercised toward the wicked, emboldens men in transgression; but their punishment will be none the less certain and terrible for being long delayed. "The Lord shall rise up as in Mount Perazim, He shall be wroth as in the valley of Gibeon, that He may do His work, His strange work; and bring to pass His act, His strange act." Isaiah 28:21. To our merciful God the act of punishment is a strange act. "As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live." Ezekiel 33:11. The Lord is "merciful and gracious, long-suffering, and abundant in goodness and truth, . . . forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin." Yet He will "by no means clear the guilty." Exodus 34:6, 7. While He does not delight in vengeance, He will execute judgment upon the transgressors of His law. He is forced to do this, to preserve the inhabitants of the earth from utter depravity and ruin. In order to save some He must cut off those who have become hardened in sin. "The Lord is slow to anger, and great in power, and will not at all acquit the wicked." Nahum 1:3. By terrible things in righteousness He will vindicate the authority of His downtrodden law. And the very fact of His reluctance to execute justice testifies to the enormity of the sins that call forth His judgments and to the severity of the retribution awaiting the transgressor. {PP 628.1}

What Ty wrote touches on this. God, in mercy, allows Christ to bare our guilt. As EGW points out, if we had to bear our own guilt, it would crush us. She never says that Christ only has to bear the guilt of "good" people.

During this lifetime, people can "shut off" the voice of God. People keep busy, and choose not to think about unpleasant things. When the Holy Spirit comes, He is sent away. The Holy Spirit is a gentleman, not forcing His way. Eventually the heart can become so hardened, a person cannot respond to be saved.

In the judgment, the truth will be revealed to all. The significance of each sin will be made known. GC speaks about this. The cleansing of the temple gives a foreshadowing of this, where the guilty could not bear the gaze of Christ, making known their sin, as they fled in fear.

Ty brought out how the beauty of God's character makes known the ugliness of our own. Our own ugliness is something we cannot bear, apart from the Balm of Gilead. In this life, we can hide our sin, but in the judgment, everything will be revealed.

Your comment didn't seem to respond to my point, which is that one cannot live selfishly and not suffer. As the SOP brings out, wherever there is sin, it is inevitable that suffering and death will be present as well.

Suffering and death are part and parcel to sin. That are not things which God arbitrarily inflicts upon people who are selfish. Selfishness brings its own misery.

Except where Ty backs up his ideas with inspired passages from the Bible or the SOP I am not impressed to believe him.


According to Ellen, Jesus bears our guilt and burdens when we give them to Him. Otherwise, we must bear them on our own. Which means the wicked bear them now without being crushed to death. Listen:

In these words Christ is speaking to every human being. Whether they know it or not, all are weary and heavy-laden. All are weighed down with burdens that only Christ can remove. The heaviest burden that we bear is the burden of sin. If we were left to bear this burden, it would crush us. But the Sinless One has taken our place. "The Lord hath laid on Him the iniquity of us all." Isa. 53:6. He has borne the burden of our guilt. He will take the load from our weary shoulders. He will give us rest. The burden of care and sorrow also He will bear. He invites us to cast all our care upon Him; for He carries us upon His heart. {DA 328.5}


True. But it also proves they can sin with impunity, that sinning does not cause them to suffer shame or guilt. Yes, some sins result in sorrow. However, most people sin with no ill effect. True, they are missing out on the joy of being like Jesus, but in this case ignorance is, as it were, bliss.


Quotes please.


Please post inspired quotes to back up Ty's point.

Also, is the Balm of Gilead preventing the evil angels from suffering and dying? If not, who or what is? What will change that all of sudden they will be able to suffer the pain and agony you describe?


See my comments above.