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Re: What is the inevitable of result of sin?
[Re: asygo]
#120828
10/22/09 05:24 PM
10/22/09 05:24 PM
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OP
SDA Charter Member Active Member 2019
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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Tom, please address 120795.
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Re: What is the inevitable of result of sin?
[Re: asygo]
#120830
10/22/09 08:00 PM
10/22/09 08:00 PM
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Active Member 2012
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T:Scripture often presents God as doing that which He permits.
A:That's different from "Scripture always presents God as doing that which He permits. The context of the statement, "Scripture often presents God as doing that which He permits" are acts which appear to be contrary to God's character, such as lying, or acting violently. So the question is if the principle is a universal one, which explains all the cases where God apparently acted contrary to His character, or only some of them. Let's assume it only covers some of these cases. If only some of these cases are covered, then we are constrained to use a different principle: If inspiration says that God does something which is apparently contrary to His character, then God did do this thing, unless there's some other place in inspiration which says He didn't. So when we read that God killed Saul, that means He did, unless we read somewhere else that He didn't. And so for sending the fiery serpents, destroying Jerusalem, and all the rest. We can except these from the principle that we should consider God to have done these things, because there's somewhere else which tells us to do so. That's one approach. Another approach would be that the principle does always apply that when Scripture says God does these things which are apparently contrary to God's character, like lying or doing violent things, then it should always be understood that God permitted these things to happen. God is being presented as doing that which He permits. God has explained to us, through inspiration, some of these cases (such as the ones I enumerated; God's killing Saul, moving David to number Israel, etc.) and from this explanation we can apply the principle to other cases, even though these are not specifically mentioned. (I've assumed here that doing violent things is apparently contrary to God's character.)
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: What is the inevitable of result of sin?
[Re: asygo]
#120832
10/22/09 10:49 PM
10/22/09 10:49 PM
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Active Member 2012
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M: Quoting Ty, therefore, hasn’t been helpful since his insights do not answer my question – What will cause resurrected sinners to die?
T: I think you're concerned about the wrong things, MM. The real important issues, the spiritual ones, it doesn't look like you are even considering.
M:What is so spiritual about being resurrected from the dead and forced to revisit your sins? I wrote a detailed post, and cross posted it, which laid out the issues I believe are important. I suspect it stopped being spiritual the moment they refused to embrace the truth as it is in Jesus. When you divorce truth and Jesus from the picture it stops being spiritual and starts being carnal. What? You still haven’t answered my question - What will cause resurrected sinners to die? I'm quite sure I've addressed this. M: I realize you believe God arbitrarily prevents sinners from suffering and dying the moment they sin – but what does He do to prevent it?
T: You asked this on the other thread.
M:I assume you’re referring to Jesus bearing their sin and guilt. If not, I have no idea what you’re talking about. I wrote out an answer to this question on the other thread. T: Sin always has a negative impact.
M: Smokers experience a genuine sense of relief and euphoria when they indulge their sin.
T: What I said is that it is not possible to sin without there being a negative impact.
M:True, sin eventually yields negative results; Not just eventually. At every moment. The effects may not be obvious, but they're there. The fact that they aren't immediately clear is one of the chief reasons the Great Controversy has progressed as it has. M: You seem to underestimate the hardening effect of the “deceitfulness of sin”.
T: Wow! That's ironic!! Indeed, I agree that not recognizing the "sinfulness of sin," is the area of disagreement. But I'm not the one claiming that one can sin without there being a negative impact.
M:I see a difference between the “deceitfulness of sin” and the “sinfulness of sin”. Do you?
Yes. I may have misread your intent. I'd say the "deceitfulness of sin" has to do with the impact that sin has on one in terms of deceiving him, whereas the "sinfulness of sin" would be more the impact of sin as a whole, not just that one aspect. M:I hear you saying the reason sinners do not suffer and die the moment they sin is because Jesus bears their sin and guilt; otherwise, their sin and guilt would cause them to suffer (so far you have denied it will also cause them to die). The inevitable result of sin is suffering and death. I've been saying this all along. You do not believe the sin and guilt Jesus bears now is equivalent to judgment. I didn't say this. I said this of a different passage, not the MB 116 passage. Which means people can sin with impunity since the actual penalty for sin is suffering ending in death. People cannot sin with impunity. M: Please explain how the presence of God consumes sin in the following passage: “To sin, wherever found, God is a consuming fire. If you choose sin, and refuse to separate from it, the presence of God, which consumes sin, must consume you.” Sin, as you say, is not a sentient being, so how can the presence of God consume it?
T: First of all, not all things which can be consumed are sentient beings, so your question doesn't really make sense. Regarding what the MB quote means, it's similar to the DA quote, which discusses this in more detail:
Only the pure in heart could abide in Christ's presence, because His presence would make manifest to men their sin. It is this which the wicked cannot stand. In the judgment, there will be nowhere to hide. Hence the desire to be destroyed, rather than look at the face of the One who redeemed them.
M:What else besides sin and sinners does the character of God consume? What do you mean? And, even if the wicked could hide from the presence of Jesus, do you think it would make any difference? How could they do so? Is the physical presence of God necessary for the wicked to suffer according to your description? What do you mean by physical presence? Also, what will be the cause of their death? The inevitable result of sin is death. Sin causes their death. M: The idea that the reason we do not experience crushing guilt when we sin is because Jesus bears it for us is difficult to believe, especially as it relates to evil angels.
T: ???
M:What do you think God does to prevent evil angels from suffering and dying when they sin? He doesn't leave them to reap the full result of their sin. Certainly you don’t believe it’s because He bears their sin and guilt, right? You mean Jesus? Or God? Neither Jesus, nor God, bears their sin in any sort of salvific way, if this is what you're asking. M: Not all sinning results in misery or sorrow. For example, how bad do people feel who have no idea they are missing out on the blessings of Sabbath-keeping?
T: Said the angel, "If light comes, and that light is set aside, or rejected, then comes condemnation and the frown of God; but before the light comes there is no sin, for there is no light for them to reject." (Spiritual Gifts Volume 4b, page 3)
M:How do you describe sins of ignorance? Acts contrary to the moral law one commits that one is ignorant of, such as not keeping the Sabbath (assuming one doesn't know one should be doing this).
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: What is the inevitable of result of sin?
[Re: Tom]
#120836
10/22/09 11:17 PM
10/22/09 11:17 PM
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SDA Active Member 2021
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
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The context of the statement, "Scripture often presents God as doing that which He permits" are acts which appear to be contrary to God's character, such as lying, or acting violently. But if God tells someone else to lie or to act violently, this is somehow alright because He did not do it Himself? Blessings, Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: What is the inevitable of result of sin?
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#120842
10/22/09 11:36 PM
10/22/09 11:36 PM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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The context of the statement, "Scripture often presents God as doing that which He permits" are acts which appear to be contrary to God's character, such as lying, or acting violently. But if God tells someone else to lie or to act violently, this is somehow alright because He did not do it Himself? Blessings, Green Cochoa. This is a different issue. No, it's not all right because God did not it Himself. However, because of the hardness of people's hearts, God allows things which are not in accordance with His ideal will. This is why the study of Christ's life is so important. In Christ's life we see God's ideal will revealed.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: What is the inevitable of result of sin?
[Re: Tom]
#120843
10/22/09 11:54 PM
10/22/09 11:54 PM
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SDA Active Member 2021
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
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This is why the study of Christ's life is so important. In Christ's life we see God's ideal will revealed. Tom, Don't forget that "...the sayings of Christ are not a new revelation. The principles which he expounded were announced to Moses from the pillar of cloud, and to the prophets, who spoke and wrote as they were moved upon by the Holy Spirit." Christ revealed in the New Testament, is Christ revealed in the Old Testament. I have been shown that in both the Old and the New Testament are mines of truth that have scarcely been touched. The truths revealed in the Old Testament are the truths of the gospel of Christ. We have the whole Bible revealing Christ to us. However, because of the hardness of people's hearts, God allows things which are not in accordance with His ideal will. Did God merely "allow" all these things? Stoning of Sabbath breakers? Did God not command this instead? if (command != allow) then Tom = incorrect else Tom = correct Blessings, Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: What is the inevitable of result of sin?
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#120844
10/23/09 01:53 AM
10/23/09 01:53 AM
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OP
SDA Charter Member Active Member 2019
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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The inevitable result of sin is suffering and death. I've been saying this all along. Yes, you have. However, you have also postulated as to how and why. You seem to think that it happens when God resurrects them and then forces them to revisit their sins in judgment, that He forces them to comprehend the contrast between their character and His, that the revelation of truth, love, mercy, and kindness causes them to suffer like Jesus did on the cross. Nevertheless, you not explained why they live on after revisiting their last sin. Neither have you explained what causes their heart to stop beating. 1. Do you think they will die of heart failure caused by a broken heart? 2. Do you think the presence of the radiant light of God will cause them to die? 3. Do you think fire from above and below will cause them to die? 4. Do you think comprehending the truth will cause them to die of heart failure?
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Re: What is the inevitable of result of sin?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#120851
10/23/09 03:12 AM
10/23/09 03:12 AM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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This is why the study of Christ's life is so important. In Christ's life we see God's ideal will revealed.
Tom,
Don't forget that "...the sayings of Christ are not a new revelation. They might as well have been. Until Christ came, they weren't understood. The principles which he expounded were announced to Moses from the pillar of cloud, and to the prophets, who spoke and wrote as they were moved upon by the Holy Spirit." According to the SOP, the "whole purpose" of Christ mission was the revelation of God's character. This was the means by which man was to be set right and kept right with God. God's character was misunderstood. It still is.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: What is the inevitable of result of sin?
[Re: Tom]
#120852
10/23/09 03:15 AM
10/23/09 03:15 AM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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T:The inevitable result of sin is suffering and death. I've been saying this all along.
M:Yes, you have. However, you have also postulated as to how and why. To some extent. You seem to think that it happens when God resurrects them and then forces them to revisit their sins in judgment, that He forces them to comprehend the contrast between their character and His, that the revelation of truth, love, mercy, and kindness causes them to suffer like Jesus did on the cross. Nevertheless, you not explained why they live on after revisiting their last sin. No, I haven't said this. Perhaps you'd like to quote something I did say? Neither have you explained what causes their heart to stop beating. I've said I don't feel any need to go beyond DA 764. I've said this several times now. 1. Do you think they will die of heart failure caused by a broken heart? 2. Do you think the presence of the radiant light of God will cause them to die? 3. Do you think fire from above and below will cause them to die? 4. Do you think comprehending the truth will cause them to die of heart failure? I haven't said any of these things. I think you're focusing on things that aren't important. I wrote a detailed post on what I think is important. I'm disappointed you aren't discussing that post.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: What is the inevitable of result of sin?
[Re: Tom]
#120861
10/23/09 03:46 PM
10/23/09 03:46 PM
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OP
SDA Charter Member Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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Tom, I complied this list based on things you posted on the "suffering of the lost" thread. Does this reflect what you believe causes sinners to suffer and to die?
1. God reveals His mercy, kindness, and love in small doses, which is healing for us, if we respond.
2. Sin causes sinners to separate from God, who alone is the source of life, and they perish.
3. The suffering of the wicked comes as a consequence of their own choice.
4. The suffering of the wicked is due to their selfishness.
5. Sin causes the wicked to suffer.
6. Sin causes sinners to feel lost, hopeless, and abandoned by God.
7. The rejection of truth hardens and destroys sinners.
8. The wicked do not choose to be resurrected and or to revisit their sins in judgment.
9. The wicked do not revisit their sins, one at a time, and they do not experience shame and guilt increasing in intensity.
10. As the wicked comprehend more fully the contrast between their character and God's they do not experience emotional pain and agony increasing exponentially.
11. The revelation and comprehension of truth, love, mercy, and kindness does not reach unbearable levels, nor does it cause their heart to fail or cause them to die eternally.
12. Sin is what causes death.
13. God destroys sinners by being nice to them.
14. The principles of mercy, kindness, and love are the means by which God destroys sinners.
15. The full revelation of God's character, which is His kindness, mercy, and love will destroy sinners.
16. God reveals His character through Jesus Christ; His kindness, mercy, and love; His goodness. This is how He destroys.
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