Imported from a different thread:

The use of the word "perfect" can be misleading. It can mean two different realities: 1) Complete in Christ, and 2) Mature in the fruits of the Spirit. Believers are born again complete with all the righteous fruits and attributes of God's character. Not one is missing. However, they are not born again mature. Like Jesus, they begin perfect (complete) and then they spend the rest of their lives becoming perfect (growing in grace and maturing in the fruits of the Spirit). This includes recognizing and resisting sin, self, and Satan. It also involves preventing their confessed and crucified defects, weaknesses, and imperfections from resurfacing. They must work to keep them under the control of a sanctified will and mind. Of course, eternity isn't long enough to exhaust our ability to become more and more perfect (mature), more and more like Jesus.

Does the Bible envision converted Christians committing sins of ignorance? Or, do all the promises of perfection portray them living in harmony with God's will and law? Jesus said, Teach everyone everywhere how to obey and observe everything I have commanded. Would such a person break the law without realizing it?

For example, would they buy and sell or perform unnecessary labor on the Sabbath without realizing they are violating one of Jesus' commandments?

Do the promises of perfection portray them sinning ignorantly? Do the promises of perfection allow for, assume, tolerate, accommodate, take for granted sins of ignorance?

Or, do all the promises of perfection portray, envision converted Christians living in harmony with God's will and law, obeying and observing everything Jesus commanded?

Matthew
28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, [even] unto the end of the world. Amen.

I would say no, as if they are guided by the Holy Spirit, they will know what is sin and what is mans 'letter of the law' as Jesus did when it came to the Sabbath and other issues..

1 John 3
1Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.

2Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

3And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

4Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

5And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.

6Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

7Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

8He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

9Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

10In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

Amen! 1 John 3:1-10 definitely describes Christians abiding in Jesus and being like Jesus. Some people think John took for granted Christians sin ignorantly.

"...if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father..."

Does the unconverted have an advocate with the Father, and be called on of His "little children"? I don't think so.

The problem seems to lie in thinking of sin as a blatant act contrary to the ten commandments. ie "buying and selling on the Sabbath".

But sin runs much deeper, and while the texts show God's children as walking with Christ and doing His will, and not cherishing any sin, we can never claim to be "without sin".

1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

Many today assume that since they keep the Sabbath and don't do any unnecessary work thereon and do not commit adulterery, or kill, or steal, or lie, then they must be righteous with an assurance of eternal life.
No -- all our righteousness is contaminated, laced with sinful motives, . We need the righteousness of Christ!

While a person walking with Christ will not knowingly sin and will give up all cherished sins, he still does not claim his own righteousness as a ticket to heaven. He is not perfect apart from the perfect righteousness of Christ. He is still totally dependant upon Christ's righteousness to fit him to stand before God.

I'm having a hard time coming to the same conclusion when I read promises and descriptions like:

1 John
6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as [Jesus] is righteous.
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Or, are you referring to the so-called righteous things we do in our own unaided strength apart from Jesus?

Also, do you think 1 John 1:8 ("If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us") means we will, while abiding in Jesus, continue to sin and we are deceived if we think otherwise?

Or, do you think it means "all have sinned", that is, everyone has a history of sinning, and we are deceived if we think, like the Gnostics did, we have never sinned?

I mean we can never say to God --
Look at me, I deserve to be saved.
Thanks for forgiving past sins, but now I am perfect and need no more forgiveness.

"The true follower of Christ will make no boastful claims to holiness. It is by the law of God that the sinner is convicted. He sees his own sinfulness in contrast with the perfect righteousness which it enjoins, and this leads him to humility and repentance. He becomes reconciled to God through the blood of Christ, and as he continues to walk with Him he will be gaining a clearer sense of the holiness of God's character and the far-reaching nature of His requirements. He will see more clearly his own defects and will feel the need of continual repentance and faith in the blood of Christ. {FW 53.4}

He who bears with him a continual sense of the presence of Christ cannot indulge self-confidence or self-righteousness. None of the prophets or apostles made proud boasts of holiness. The nearer they came to perfection of character, the less worthy and righteous they viewed themselves. But those who have the least sense of the perfection of Jesus, those whose eyes are least directed to Him, are the ones who make the strongest claim to perfection. {FW 54.1}

"He will see more clearly his own defects and will feel the need of continual repentance and faith in the blood of Christ."

Some people think this insight implies we will continue to sin in ignorance until the day Jesus returns and replaces our sinful flesh nature and body with sinless ones. Do you agree?

"The nearer they came to perfection of character, the less worthy and righteous they viewed themselves."

Some people think this insight implies the same thing I stated above. Do you agree?

Personally I think those who think they can achieve the righteousness of God have no real concept of the purity and awesome holiness of God's righteousness.

Our part is to stay intimately connected with Christ and walk with Him in humble obedience, laying aside all the sins that so easily beset us and trusting in His righteousness.

Know that today, as you seek His cleansing and walk with HIM following His leading, you are accounted righteous -- not by your own righteousness (which is NEVER GOOD ENOUGH to get you to heaven) but by Christ's.

Our duty is to walk with Him in humble, loving obedience, not try to establish some level of righteousness where we think we are no longer sinning.

Dedication, I'm not following you. It sounds like you believe not sinning is not possible. It also sounds like you believe the fruit of faith, righteousness and true holiness, is in reality contaminated with sin for one reason or another. Have I misunderstood you? Also, do you think the following passages describe a kind of personal polluted righteousness?

"Every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as [Jesus] is pure. . . Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as [Jesus] is righteous." {1 John 3:3, 7}

"Christ is our pattern, the perfect and holy example that has been given us to follow. We can never equal the Pattern, but we may imitate and resemble it according to our ability. {TMK 265.2}

"He is a perfect and holy example, given for us to imitate. We cannot equal the pattern; but we shall not be approved of God if we do not copy it and, according to the ability which God has given, resemble it. {2T 549.1}

While they do not necessarily mean that converted people will continue to sin in ignorance, it definitely means that at least some converted people can and do have defects that need repentance. IOW, repentance is needed by converted people. Does that mean they sin? Yes, assuming that repentance is needed only for sin.

"We cannot equal the pattern"

Do you believe you can become so perfect you no longer need the righteousness of Christ to enable you to stand before a Holy God?

The key is surrender.
Placing the will under the will of God.
Of course we are to seek holiness, putting aside all known sin. But don't think there isn't anything else left in your life that needs correcting. There is always more -- more growth needed.

Beautiful quote in that lesson:

Do you think having defects, weaknesses, and imperfections is the same thing as indulging them and requiring repentance? We are admonished to overcome them, which means to prevent them from resurfacing, to subject them to a sanctified will and mind, to rein them in, to keep them under control. Overcoming them does not mean eliminating them so they no longer tempt or annoy us.

Also, where in the Bible or the SOP does it describe converted Christians successfully abiding in Jesus, successfully recognizing and resisting sin, self, and Satan, successfully growing in grace and maturing in the fruits of the Spirit? Or, do all the descriptions assume they sin and repent, sin and repent, sin and repent? As far as I know, there is only one passage in the entire Bible where post-conversion sinning is described: 1 John 2:1, 2. And it says "if" not "when" they sin.

No. I'm sorry if I posted anything that led you to ask this question. The blood and righteousness of Jesus covers our confessed and crucified sins and our sins of ignorance while we are abiding in Him, growing in grace, maturing in the fruits of the Spirit. It does not cover unconfessed and uncrucified sins.


I'm still not sure what your answer is to the comments and questions above. Would you mind answering them? Also, the "correcting" and "growth" you mentioned above, is it a gradual process of sinning and repenting less and less often until we finally cease sinning? Or, is it a process of maturing in the fruits of the Spirit?

PS - Please don't misunderstand me. I'm not saying converted Christians are incapable of resurrecting the old man and reverting back to their former habits of sin or even altogether new sins. Indeed, it happens all too often. And, praise the Lord, 1 John 2:1, 2 makes it clear post-conversion sinning is pardonable. On the other hand, though, Heb 10:26, 27 makes it clear a certain type of sinning is unpardonable. However, my point is the promises of perfection do not envision or assume post-conversion sinning and repenting is normal, acceptable, and unavoidable. Do you agree?

1 John
2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for [the sins of] the whole world.

Hebrews
10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

quote=Mountain Man

"I'm not following you. It sounds like you believe not sinning is not possible.


That depends on the definition of sin.
The rich young ruler asserted to Jesus that He had kept the commandments from his youth up. Jesus quietly reveals that He hadn't been keeping them; he had another god, his first love was his money.

We should come to the place where we no longer knowingly sin. As we come close to Jesus, sin loses it's attraction and power.

Yet, while all our Christian life we are to "be led by the Spirit" and "put to death the deeds of the flesh" or carnal nature, growing in grace and righteousness in Christ to spiritual maturity -- still , I don't believe there is ever a time when we can say "I've arrived, I no longer sin".

M: It also sounds like you believe the fruit of faith, righteousness and true holiness, is in reality contaminated with sin for one reason or another.

Our faith, righteousness and holiness is always laced with sin. Even our prayers,



MM: Have I misunderstood you? Also, the "correcting" and "growth" you mentioned above, is it a gradual process of sinning and repenting less and less often until we finally cease sinning? Or, is it a process of maturing in the fruits of the Spirit?

D: The growth process is the Holy Spirit leading us. When we first come to Christ and accept Him, our lives have MANY wrong habits and unChristlike characteristics ingrained that are contrary to His will. The Bible paints a pretty ugly picture of the putrid condition of humanity (Romans 3) The church usually points out the most obvious ones, which (if the person is genuinely wanting to follow Christ) are put away.

Now the person is "acceptably righteous" to church standards, and many settle down in false complacency.
But the Holy Spirit doesn't stop there and hopefully we don't either. Little by little He points out all the dirty corners in our lives (not all at once, or we would dispair!) When those habits are corrected, He moves on to the next dirty corner. Some corners are cleaned out quickly, some take more time. We may think we've "purified ourselves" at any point in the "growth", but if we saw ourselves as God sees us we realize we are still filled with sinful tendencies and ingrained habits.

The promise is -- as long as we are being led by the Holy Spirit and allowing Him to help us "put to death the deeds of the flesh" that he brings to our attention, we are accounted PERFECT thanks to the righteousness of Christ (not our righteousness.)

Salvation by faith is about laying in the dust the glory of man and giving all the glory to Christ.

MM: - Please don't misunderstand me. I'm not saying converted Christians are incapable of resurrecting the old man and reverting back to their former habits of sin or even altogether new sins. Indeed, it happens all too often. And, praise the Lord, 1 John 2:1, 2 makes it clear post-conversion sinning is pardonable. On the other hand, though, Heb 10:26, 27 makes it clear a certain type of sinning is unpardonable. However, my point is the promises of perfection do not envision or assume post-conversion sinning and repenting is normal, acceptable, and unavoidable. Do you agree?


D: Do you believe that at conversion all sinful habits just drop away? Does a converted person just stop sinning at the point of conversion (unless he reverts back)?



I think what you are against is falling into the SAME sin again and again and repenting of that same sin again and again. No, that should not be our experience.

However, I do not agree that a converted person no longer needs to do much repenting. The closer we come to Jesus the deeper should be our repentance as we see more clearly the exalted holiness of His character, and discern more accurately the malignant nature of sin.

Yes, we can have victory over sins, but the Holy Spirit will reveal the next sinful habit or unChristlike character trait when the last one is finally conquered. There is no point where we can say "I've arrived" I am perfect in my own righteousness.
We are perfect only in Christ's righteousness.







Hebrews
10:26 For if we sin wilfully

This isn't speaking of unknown sin.

According to the sacrificial system, there was no sacrifice for any sin except for sins of ignorance. As I have explained elsewhere, even the "willful" sins are still "sins of ignorance," because we would not commit them if we were not so ignorant.

The difference between us and the fallen angels is essentially the difference between "sins of ignorance" and "sins of knowledge." Both can be either willful sins or inadvertent ones--but the term "ignorance" implies that the sin is done without full knowledge of the truth. "Willful" simply means the thing is done by choice. One can be ignorant, and still choose, for ignorance does not remove the freedom of choice factor.

Every sin we do is a sin of ignorance, as per the sacrificial system. Otherwise, how would one know when to offer the sacrifice if he or she did not realize/know/recognize his/her sin? The sacrifices were commanded on the condition of sin--not merely on a daily basis "just in case." Therefore, the sin must be known--and if we take the view that this could only imply sins which were afterward pointed out by someone, then there would be a great body of sins which were "knowingly/willfully" committed which would have been unatoneable by sacrifice. In this case, one might truly say that there is no forgiveness for willful sin.

However, God sees that we are ignorant. Even our "willful" sins are forgivable on that basis. We cannot be set free until we know the truth. "And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free" (John 17:17).

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Look at the quote you provided, with the rest of the paragraph included:
This is talking about the "true follower of Christ." And this person needs "continual repentance."

What do you think he is repenting of? Is he repenting of willful sins? Purposeful sins? Or is he repenting of things that are not sins at all?

Here's my answer:
The true follower of Jesus, the one who has a deep-seated love for Him, continually repents because of his own sinfulness and moral deformity. Surely, such a one does not sin willfully. I would even say that such a one does not sin outwardly, since Saul the Pharisee managed to do that without the benefit of Christ's grace. Nevertheless, he repents.

Therefore, I disagree with your sentiment that so long as we can prevent sins from resurfacing, all is OK. The fact is the true Christian, who does not sin (1Jn 3:9), lives in continual repentance for the sin in him (1Jn 1:8).


M.L. Andreasen disagrees. Here's an excerpt from the chapter "The Last Generation" in The Sanctuary Service:


The SOP above tells us that the true Christian lives in continual repentance. Here's another one:
Can we be without sin? Not according to the SOP:

If this was the case, human beings wouldn't be able to commit the sin against the Holy Spirit, the unpardonable sin, would they?

Thank you for clarifying what you believe.


Again, thank you for clarifying what you believe.


I hear you saying that initially the “most obvious” sinful traits and habits are confessed and crucified. Do you think these things cease being defects, weaknesses, imperfections? And, do you think they cease being sources of temptations?

I also hear you saying that after their initial victory the Holy Spirit gradually, over the course of a lifetime, makes them aware of more subtle traits and habits, which they confess and crucify either easily or with difficulty. Do you think these things cease being defects, weaknesses, imperfections? And, do you think they cease being sources of temptations?


It depends on if they complete the process of converting to obeying and observing everything Jesus commanded. If they have, then I believe it is possible for them to abide in Jesus, walk in the Spirit and mind of the new man, partake of the divine nature and thereby “sin no more.” Again, it doesn’t mean they lose the ability or freedom to sin if they so please.


I agree.


I agree repentance deepens, not because they continue to sin, but because, as you say, they sense more deeply the hideous nature of the sins Jesus has forgiven.


I agree. But what do you think constitutes an unknown sin? Above you seem to be implying it is unknown because the Holy Spirit has not yet made them aware of it. What particular kinds of sins do you think fall into this category (besides things people do because they haven’t read about it in the Bible, i.e. Sabbath-keeping, diet and dress, etc).

Arnold, I didn't realize you believe this way. Thank you for clarifying what you believe.

PS - Arnold, I can't help but believing I have misunderstood you. Are you saying "whosoever abideth in him sinneth not . . . whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God" must be taken to mean they continue to sin therefore they continue to repent?

Our faith, righteousness and holiness is always laced with sin. Even our prayers,

Quote:


If all our righteousness isn't laced with sin, and we stop ALL sinning in our lives at conversion, why would we still need Christ to cover our "religious services, the prayers, the praise" with His merits to make it acceptable?

Why are true believers still engaging in
"penitent confession of sin ascend from true believers"

These are true believers --
Are you saying true believers are not converted?

D: I don't believe there is ever a time when we can say "I've arrived, I no longer sin".

MM: Thank you for clarifying what you believe.

[quote]Neither Joseph, Daniel, nor any of the apostles claimed to be without sin. Men who have lived nearest to God,
men who would sacrifice life itself rather than to knowingly sin against Him, men whom God has honored with divine light and power, have acknowledged themselves to be sinners, unworthy of His great favors. They have felt their weakness and, sorrowful for their sins, have tried to copy the pattern Jesus Christ {FW 43.4}

MM: I hear you saying that initially the “most obvious” sinful traits and habits are confessed and crucified. Do you think these things cease being defects, weaknesses, imperfections? And, do you think they cease being sources of temptations?

When a person first accepts Christ and becomes a member they stop working on the Sabbath and start going to church, they stop smoking, drinking, eating unclean meats etc. They start paying tithe --

In other words they give up the "culture of the world" and start living the "culture of Adventism". And yes, for many they find the culture of Adventism pleasant and don't feel any desire to go back to the culture of the world.

They have "conformed" their lives to the outward requirnments established by the church (and supported by scripture). They have done so in all sincerity as they have accepted Christ.

But they are just beginning the walk! They have much character change still ahead.
These things are "outward"
the Holy Spirit has to do a lot of "inner" work , or even these initial outward reforms done in the flush of "first love" for Christ, will gradually become meaningless. Indeed they may become stumbling blocks in further advancment as people THINK they are now within God's will.

True love for one's God, and one's neighbors -- that is the goal.

Hate, envy, pride, bitterness, evil surmising, lusting, unforgiving spirit, vengeful thoughts, selfishness, stinginess, greed, dishonesty ( and the list is much longer) are also sin.

Then there are all the sins of OMISSION, it's not just the sins of commission.

Even Sabbath keeping --
Just because one doesn't work and goes to church is no guarantee that the person is "keeping the Sabbath holy unto the Lord"

Sin isn't that simple --
One may think they have the victory over one sin (one way that sin expresses itself in the life) only to find the SAME sin popping up in a totally new expression when the old way of expressing it is squashed. What they thought was victory, was merely a transferance .









MM:I also hear you saying that after their initial victory the Holy Spirit gradually, over the course of a lifetime, makes them aware of more subtle traits and habits, which they confess and crucify either easily or with difficulty. Do you think these things cease being defects, weaknesses, imperfections? And, do you think they cease being sources of temptations?

God doesn't hit us over the head all at once with all the sins we have to overcome, but leads us gradually.

And yes, even once a sin is put down, without constantly abiding in Christ it can pop up again!
Indeed that is one of the greatest dangers of believing that once we are converted we no longer can sin -- because people's greatest sin is thinking they are strong enough to stand, not realizing that their dependance upon their "renewed self" is causing them to sink in the quick sand of sin. Oh, it might not be the "worldly sins" but sins of pride, intolerance, selfishness etc.etc.

But doesn't 1 John 3 tell us a born again Christ can not sin?

"Everyone that has been born from God does not go on doing sin because his seed remains in him; and he is not able to go on sinning because he has been born from God." 3:5

A person born from God does not continue on in their life of sin. He keeps purifying himself or sweeping out sin.
His seed (the Word of God [see 1:10, 2:24]) which is truth and the commands of God, abides in Him. Hebrews, quoting from Jeremiah, states it is written upon mind and heart.

Thus now -- the person seeks God's will, and no longer continues doing sin.
He may not be perfect (as in no more sin in him) -- but his focus is on Christ, His Word, and for him the life of sin is no longer an option, it's impossible for him to continue in the life of sin.

Conversion -- about face
Through the grace and power of Christ we get off the road of sin leading to death, and onto the road of righteousness.
This doesn't mean we've already arrived (sinless) but our life is turned around, now we are focused on Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, and we run with patience, casting off the sins that so easily beset us.

Rosangela,

Do you think that people commit the unpardonable sin because there is a sin so great that God will not pardon it? or is it because they do not ask forgiveness, having seared their consciences? If it is because of the latter, do they not ask because of a full knowledge of God and His character, or are they in ignorance of this and of the full ramifications of their choice?

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Mike,

I agree with you here. It is certainly possible to live without sin, else Jesus would never have asked us to do so. There are multiple commands in the scriptures along these lines. If we say we cannot live without sin, it opens up a slippery slope of logic that might lead one to conclude it doesn't matter what he does, God must save him in spite of it, by grace alone--which is false theology and will certainly be to the eternal ruin of many.

I also agree with statements from Mrs. White which say that no saint will ever claim perfection. I see no dissonance here, for it is certainly possible to be living sinlessly while at the same time being unaware of it--for as we draw close to God, we see how weak we are and come to depend upon Him wholly. I do not believe that those who live sinlessly realize it. They have had enough experience with sin to know the deceitfulness of their own hearts, and do not trust themselves at all to be strong, but put their entire weight, in faith, upon Christ.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

I believe it is possible for those who have completed the process of converting to obeying and observing everything Jesus commanded them, who are abiding in Him, who are walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man, who are partaking of the divine nature, that it is possible for them to “go and sin no more.” However, it doesn’t mean they lose the ability or freedom to sin.

Regarding believers after probation closes, Ellen wrote: ". . . it is needful for them to be placed in the furnace of fire; their earthliness must be consumed, that the image of Christ may be perfectly reflected." {GC 621.1} Do you think this insight means their righteousness is stained with sin?

GC, thank you. I agree. Those who are experiencing the promises of perfection are so focused on Jesus that it doesn't occur to them they are living without sinning. Do you think the righteousness they experience while abiding in Jesus is stained with sin?

Do you believe you can become so perfect you (once all sins before your full conversion are forgiven) that you no longer need the righteousness of Christ to enable you to stand before a Holy God?

The sad part is that most people who focus on perfection, (instead of simply walking in humble obedience daily with Christ) are focusing on self not on Jesus.

Dedication,

I don't if you noticed this: Regarding believers after probation closes, Ellen wrote: ". . . it is needful for them to be placed in the furnace of fire; their earthliness must be consumed, that the image of Christ may be perfectly reflected." {GC 621.1}

Do you think this insight means their righteousness is stained with sin?

Why do you think they are "walking in humble obedience" when in reality their obedience is, if I understand you right, stained with sin? How can we call it "obedience" if it is stained with sin?

Yes, else why does "their earthliness have to be consumed".

I don't think we have the same definition for sin. You seem to think it's simply DOING it, or not doing it, but my Bible tells me there is a much deeper seating of sin -- the whole selfishness, the motives, the lack of genuine love, even at times thoughts of resistance that have to be banished at the foot of the cross, and a whole host of other things cause obedience to be imperfect.

What are we to do?
Give up because we (if we are really honest with ourselves) realize we aren't fully measuring up even if we grit our teeth and do it, or don't do it (whatever the issue)
Or trust in Christ's merits and accepting His grace and acceptance of us, seeking His will and obeying as best we can as we walk and talk with Him, knowing it's His merits that count, not our own.

It's so much easier to obey and rejoice in the Lord knowing this, then forever worrying about whether we are truly converted and if we'll ever make it (and down in despair because after all these years we still aren't perfect) and fear we'll never be accepted as we view the sin stains on our obedience.

Isn't that the very basis of righteousness by faith? Recognizing our need, and accepting Christ's merits instead of trying to present our own?
Why were the strong preachers of the law so against the 1888 message? They all acknowledged Christ's sacrifice and forgiveness of prior sins. But they couldn't accept the fact that all their battle with sin wasn't good enough!

Micah 6:8 He has showed thee, O man, what [is] good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God.


Walk with Christ in humble obedience on a day by day, hour by hour basis, and don't worry about perfection, just walk with Him in obedience. He will give victories, yes. He will transform character, yes. He will make us more Christlike, yes. But our job is simply to walk with God in humble obedience accepting HIS MERITS and knowing that only in His merits are we perfect.

Thanks for the Post D.

It brought the following texts in mind :

"...give glory to Him..." Rev 14:7

"And men were scorched with great heat,... and they repented not to give him glory."Rev 16:9

"Having the glory of God: and her light [was] like unto a stone most precious..."Rev 21:11

"And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb [is] the light thereof." Rev 21:23

"And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it." Rev 21:24

"To him [be] glory and dominion for ever and ever. AMEN!" 1Pe 5:11

I should have asked, Do you think it means they are sinning? If so, does it require the application of the benefits of Jesus' atoning blood? And, are they sinless, free of sinning or the stain of sin, after their earthliness is consumed?

Actually, I believe sin the transgression of the law, and that the law encompasses our thoughts, feelings, motives, words, and deeds. Nothing is overlooked. At any rate, it sounds like you believe all obedience is stained with sin. All I’m trying to do here is understand what you believe.


Yes, we are to trust in His merits – not ours.


Yes, it is far better to focus on Jesus.


I believe the basis of RBF is twofold, 1) what Jesus does for us in heaven, and 2) what Jesus does in and through us on earth.


True, we must not “worry” about perfection or coming short of the glory of God; however, I do believe we must labor, agonize, wrestle, and strive to cooperate with God and overcome as Jesus overcame. I like how Ellen put it:


It is difficult for me to read inspired insights like this and conclude everything we think, say, or do, while abiding in Jesus, while partaking of the divine nature, is stained with sin. Do you see what I mean?

This is a passage pertinent to this topic:

"The religious services, the prayers, the praise, the penitent confession of sin ascend from true believers as incense to the heavenly sanctuary, but passing through the corrupt channels of humanity, they are so defiled that unless purified by blood, they can never be of value with God. They ascend not in spotless purity, and unless the Intercessor, who is at God's right hand, presents and purifies all by His righteousness, it is not acceptable to God. All incense from earthly tabernacles must be moist with the cleansing drops of the blood of Christ. He holds before the Father the censer of His own merits, in which there is no taint of earthly corruption. He gathers into this censer the prayers, the praise, and the confessions of His people, and with these He puts His own spotless righteousness. Then, perfumed with the merits of Christ's propitiation, the incense comes up before God wholly and entirely acceptable. Then gracious answers are returned. Oh, that all may see that everything in obedience, in penitence, in praise and thanksgiving, must be placed upon the glowing fire of the righteousness of Christ. The fragrance of this righteousness ascends like a cloud around the mercy seat." {1SM 344.2, 3}

Rosangela, do you think Ellen is saying "the religious services, the prayers, the praise, the penitent confession of sin ascend from true believers" stained with sin? Or, do you think she is saying they must ascend mingled with Jesus' righteousness to be acceptable to God?

Mike, she says that "they are so defiled that unless purified by blood, they can never be of value with God." So I believe the first option is true - that is, they are stained with sin.

Is "stained with sin" the same thing as sinning? That is, are they guilty of sinning? For example, are they guilty of sinning each time they confess a sin?

Also, do you think the expression "their earthliness must be consumed" (GC 621) implies they are sinning? If not, what do you think it means?

The following passages make it difficult to believe the obedience and righteousness of the saints is stained with sin or equivalent to sinning. Ellen White likens it unto the obedience and righteousness of Jesus. Listen:

The Lord requires perfection from His redeemed family. He expects from us the perfection which Christ revealed in His humanity. (CG 477)

His life and character were the unfolding or representation of the perfection of the character that man may attain by becoming a partaker of the divine nature, and overcoming the world through daily conflicts. (FLB 114)

Jesus revealed no qualities, and exercised no powers, that men may not have through faith in Him. His perfect humanity is that which all His followers may possess, if they will be in subjection to God as He was. (DA 664)

But Christ came in the form of humanity, and by His perfect obedience He proved that humanity and divinity combined can obey every one of God’s precepts. (COL 314)

The Saviour took upon Himself the infirmities of humanity and lived a sinless life, that men might have no fear that because of the weakness of human nature they could not overcome. Christ came to make us “partakers of the divine nature,” and His life declares that humanity, combined with divinity, does not commit sin. (MH 180)

Their obedience (as everything else which comes from sinners) is imperfect, tainted with sin, and cannot be accepted by God without the merits of Christ's blood.

"When it is in the heart to obey God, when efforts are put forth to this end, Jesus accepts this disposition and effort as man's best service, and He makes up for the deficiency with His own divine merit." {FW 50.1}

Luther refers to this when he says:

"XIII. How One is Justified before God, and of Good Works.
What I have hitherto and constantly taught concerning this I know not how to change in the least, namely, that by faith, as St. Peter says, we acquire a new and clean heart, and God will and does account us entirely righteous and holy for the sake of Christ, our Mediator. And although sin in the flesh has not yet been altogether removed or become dead, yet He will not punish or remember it.
And such faith, renewal, and forgiveness of sins is followed by good works. AND WHAT THERE IS STILL SINFUL OR IMPERFECT ALSO IN THEM SHALL NOT BE ACCOUNTED AS SIN OR DEFECT, EVEN [AND THAT, TOO] FOR CHRIST'S SAKE; but the entire man, both as to his person and his works, is to be called and to be righteous and holy from pure grace and mercy, shed upon us [unfolded] and spread over us in Christ. Therefore we cannot boast of many merits and works, if they are viewed apart from grace and mercy, but as it is written, 1 Cor. 1, 31: He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord, namely, that he has a gracious God. For thus all is well. We say, besides, that if good works do not follow, faith is false and not true" (The Smalcald Articles).

At some point, Christ ceases His work in the Sanctuary, doffing priestly robes in the place of kingly ones; the 144,000 will stand before God without a mediator. Hence the above description must be a temporary one, until the time when Christ completes His work in the Sanctuary.

This is a bit off-topic, and I'm going to go a little further off-topic. MM, forgive us for we know not what we do.....


When we have no mediator, then the purification by Christ's blood/righteousness will stop. At that point, if the prayers of true believers are still effective, either God's standard will change or whatever it is that is causing defilement will have ceased. If we believe that God's standard does not change, we must conclude that whatever causes the defilement will stop.

Look at that quote, and find what it is that causes the defilement. So as not to give it away, I'll call it X. So, when Christ's mediation stops, X will be gone. Think about the ramifications of that concept.

Do you believe you can become so perfect that you no longer need the righteousness of Christ to enable you to stand before a Holy God?
Will you be presenting your own righteousness to God as perfect enough to enter into God's presence during those last days?


Or is it that at that point, Christ has put His seal of ownership upon His people because He knows they would rather die than knowingly commit sin and dishonour His name. But it's still His righteous merits that is their perfection.

No, not before corruption has been turned into incorruption. I believe that from the cross to the crown, we will be wrestling with inbred sin. I believe that as we get closer to Christ, we will appear more faulty in our own eyes, not because we will be seeing things that are not there, but our spiritual sight will be restored so that we will see things that have always been there but hadn't noticed previously.

That verse means that there is a class of sin that those born of God do not and cannot commit. However, 1Jn 1:8 means that there is a class of sin that we cannot deny that we have. Later in the book, John mentions a class of sin that does not lead to death.

Look in the sanctuary system, as GC has started already, and you'll see different ways of addressing the different classes of sin. Almost every sacrifice is for a sin done ignorantly, but the sinner offers the sacrifice when he finds out about the sin. Christ's death was required even for sins done ignorantly.

However, there was a sacrifice that was not attached to a specific sin. As we know, confession and repentance should be specific. But the morning and evening sacrifices were not for any specific sin. Yet, the sacrifice still typified Christ's death for sin.

Sins done in ignorance, once discovered, required specific sacrifices, confession and repentance. What sins were the morning and evening sacrifices for? What sins were confessed upon the animal? I believe these sacrifices were for ignorant sins that were not yet discovered.

When did the morning and evening sacrifices stop?

When Lucifer sinned, God offered to pardon him without Christ's death.

The following also comes to mind:

Here's the "without a Mediator" statement:



This is before corruption puts on incorruption.

It isn't clear to me what you believe. Do you think Ellen meant for us to understand her to say when we cooperate with God, abide in Jesus, partake of the divine nature and, as a result, experience "righteousness and true holiness" that it is akin to sinning and requires the atoning blood of Jesus?

Also, do you think the expression "their earthliness must be consumed" (GC 621) implies they are sinning? If not, what do you think it means?

First of all, I do not think discussing the timing of putting on incorruption as it relates to "righteousness and true holiness" is off topic. Thank you for bringing it up. I agree with Tom, though, that "righteousness and true holiness" cease requiring the atoning blood of Jesus before they put on incorruption.

Secondly, why do you think 1 John 3:1-10 is referring to a certain class of sin and not simply sin? I agree with you that the morning and evening sacrifices accommodated sins of ignorance. I also believe it continues until probation closes. At that point no one alive can commit a sin for which they are ignorant. However, I do not believe "inbred sin" counts as sins of ignorance. Ellen wrote:


"Inbred sin" or "hereditary tendencies to wrong" do not constitute sinning ignorantly. Born-again believers are very much aware of them and are exhorted to rein them in, to subject them to a sanctified will and mind, to prevent them from resurfacing and regaining control of them. Ellen wrote:


I'll avoid the temptation to say Jesus demonstrated how to subject hereditary tendencies to wrong to a sanctified will and mind.

Thirdly, why do you think 1 John 1:8 is referring to present sins of ignorance rather than past sins confessed and pardoned? That is, why do you think "have no sin" (v. 8) is totally different than "have not sinned" (v. 10)? Why do you think John isn't referring to past sins in both verses? And, isn't the sin John says doesn't lead to death referring to sins of ignorance?

Dedication, please respond to the two posts I addressed to you on page 5 of this thread (121408 and 121409). Thank you.

Arnold,

As you mentioned me and alluded to my views, let me clarify those. I believe every sin we do is counted by God as a sin of ignorance. There are degrees of ignorance. There are willful sins and intentional ones. There are sins which are greater than others. But they are all done in ignorance--for we do not truly understand what we are doing. Notice Jesus' prayer on the cross--and it is my firm belief this prayer applies to me, and not just to the Roman soldiers and Jewish leaders--"Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do."

The entire sacrificial system was built upon this concept. Sins of ignorance could be atoned for. Sins of knowledge cannot be (look at Lucifer's case--already discussed in another thread). When Jesus requested of His Father to forgive our sins of ignorance, He was fulfilling in every detail the type represented in the sacrifices. As the Anti-type, He requested forgiveness for us because we had sinned in ignorance.

Our comprehension of our sin is no greater than our comprehension of God. We see through a glass, darkly, in both cases. In fact, to know God is to comprehend our sin and sinfulness. We cannot see a revelation of God apart from a simultaneous revelation of our own filthiness.

Therefore, to sin ignorantly is synonymous with being ignorant of God. Until we know the Truth, we can never hope to be free.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

To clarify something here, I didn't say the righteous cease requiring the atoning blood of Jesus. I spoke only of Christ's work of intercession. The atoning blood of Jesus covers more than simply Christ's work of intercession.

God offered to pardon Lucifer's sin. Therefore, assuming Lucifer's sin was not one of ignorance (which looks to be what you're saying), God can pardon willful sin without atonement. But sins of ignorance require atonement. This appears to be what's being suggested (I'm not saying I agree or disagree with anything here, by the way; just trying to make I've got the details right, according to your point of view).

Mike,

What is clear to me is that Christ's blood must cover both our sins and our good works, because even our good works are imperfect and defiled by sin. I don't have the least idea about how God will take care of the latter during the time of trouble. I'm glad this is His problem.


Do you mean to say that, for you, "inbred sin" is not sin?

Definition of "inbred":



Source:http://www.thefreedictionary.com/inbred

When you say "defiled by sin" do you have in mind "sinning"? If not, how you explain the difference?


What is the nature and essence of "His problem"?


I mean to say Ellen's "inbred sin" is equivalent to her "hereditary tendencies to wrong" and that it isn't the same thing as sinners choosing to sin. Do you agree?


Please address this question. Thank you.

Do you agree with me that the "righteousness and true holiness" experienced after probation closes does not require the atoning blood of Jesus?

Do you agree that offering to pardon sin is not the same thing as actually pardoning sin? And, do you agree God did not actually pardon Lucifer?

PS - I'll keep asking these questions until you clearly answer them. So, cut to the chase, save tons of time, and answer yes or no. Thank you.

"‘And you shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength.’ This is the first commandment." Are we able to do that? Are we able to love God as He deserves to be loved? If not, aren't we transgressing the commandment, or failing to keep it? This, technically, would be a form of "sinning." Besides, doesn't the fact that it needs the blood of Christ confirm that it's a form of sinning? And if it needs Christ's blood and mediation now, won't it need it at the time of trouble? This would be the nature of God's "problem." Either this deficiency will cease to exist or God will have to take care of it without Christ's mediation.


Well, it's not the same thing as sinners choosing to sin, but "sin" is "sin." She still refers to this (sinful tendencies) as "inward sin" and "indwelling sin."


No, I don't think it implies they are sinning, or choosing to sin. Maybe it's a reference to sinful tendencies, but we cannot say it with certainty. Since you don't believe sinful tendencies can be removed before Christ's coming, how do you interpret this expression?

Tom,

You seem to be uncertain about some of the things I have said, as if you do not understand them. (I'm not sure if you were arguing or just asking questions.) Let me try to explain more fully.

Lucifer did, at first, experience sin ignorantly--that is, he was ignorant of sin, not of God. God first talked with Lucifer, showed him plainly the direction he was headed, and revealed the truth about the sinfulness of Lucifer's thought and talk. God offered to pardon him at that point in time--at the same time giving Lucifer a fuller revelation of God. However, Lucifer was too proud to admit that he had been wrong. When he chose to continue in his course--this time full knowing that what he did was wrong, and already having a perfect knowledge of God and His character--this became an unatoneable sin. It is possible that God could have forgiven this sin, had Lucifer been truly repentant. However, no atoning sacrifice of Christ would have served to reveal anything of God's character with which Lucifer was not already acquainted. Atonement would not be required in this case--and in fact, could not be applied.

Lucifer/Satan was not sinning ignorantly. He was not deceived. He knew full well what he was doing, but chose to do it anyway.

We are fundamentally unlike Lucifer, in that we have been and are still deceived into sin. Every sin we do can be attributed to our ignorance.


Ignorance, however, saves no one. It is not an excuse for sin. Jesus said "Ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free." Ignorance is bondage. Only a knowledge of the truth can free us from sin--and it will.

If/when we know the full impact of our sins, in contrast to God's beautiful image, we will no longer desire to sin. We will not choose to sin. Satan knows this, and this is why he fights to keep us ignorant.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Why do you think Lucifer sinned ignorantly? Elsewhere you wrote, “In fact, to know God is to comprehend our sin and sinfulness.” How could Lucifer know God perfectly and not know he was sinning? Ellen wrote: "Lucifer in heaven had sinned in the light of God's glory. To him as to no other created being was given a revelation of God's love. {DA 761.5}

What did God say to Lucifer that he didn't already know so far as His character was concerned? Do you think offering to pardon him contributed to his knowledge in a way that motivated him to repent and resuming obeying and loving God? Ellen wrote:

"But His mercy was misinterpreted. Lucifer pointed to the long-suffering of God as an evidence of his own superiority, an indication that the King of the universe would yet accede to his terms. {PP 39.2}

Just to be clear, are you saying “righteousness and true holiness” is “a form of sinning”? Ellen wrote: “The Lord requires perfection from His redeemed family. He expects from us the perfection which Christ revealed in His humanity. (CG 477) Are you saying when believers experience “the perfection which Christ revealed in His humanity” it is “a form of sinning?

She also wrote: "The Saviour took upon Himself the infirmities of humanity and lived a sinless life, that men might have no fear that because of the weakness of human nature they could not overcome. Christ came to make us “partakers of the divine nature,” and His life declares that humanity, combined with divinity, does not commit sin. (MH 180) Are you saying humanity and divinity combined results in “a form of sinning”?


If, as you say, it is a sin, do you think it can, in and of itself, bar the gates of heaven? If not, why not?


If it’s a reference to “inbred sin” do you think it will be consumed before the time of trouble, before they put on incorruption? What do you think “consumed” entails? Ellen wrote: “God's love for His children during the period of their severest trial is as strong and tender as in the days of their sunniest prosperity; but it is needful for them to be placed in the furnace of fire; their earthliness must be consumed, that the image of Christ may be perfectly reflected. {GC 621.1}

I don’t think “earthliness” refers to sin or “inbred sin”. I suspect it refers to our survival instincts, our natural ability and responsibility to meet our basic needs (food, water, shelter, etc). In the time of trouble, however, we shall have to rely on God to meet such needs. Consuming earthliness in this context results in a deeper, purer faith and righteousness. Ellen wrote:

“The assaults of Satan are strong, his delusions are subtle; but the Lord's eye is upon His people. Their affliction is great, the flames of the furnace seem about to consume them; but Jesus will bring them forth as gold tried in the fire. Their earthliness will be removed, that through them the image of Christ may be perfectly revealed. {PK 589.2}

“Their love is not a mere human affection; though defiled by the earthliness of its human channel, it is an outflowing from the fountain of His own redeeming love. He will not rebuke, but deepen and purify. {DA 548.6}

“Jesus longed to open before the minds of His disciples deep and living truths, but their earthliness, their clouded, deficient comprehension made it impossible. {AG 186.4}

No, I disagree. However, I believe that Christ will have removed His priestly robes, so He will not be continuing the intercessory work He was doing in the MHP.



Since God's word is good, and we can trust He will do what He says, there is no meaningful difference.

I disagree. If you look at the definition I provided, it looks to me like it's referring to sins committed, and not referring to one's heredity. You'll see the definition speaks of a thing being "as if" it were hereditary. The point is not the the sin was inbred through genetic manipulation, but people have become so attached to their sins, they become such a part of them, it is as if they were. This seems to be in harmony with the context of the EGW quotes, it looks to me.

I don't understand the confusion. I explained:



I don't see how one could take this as an argument.



Thanks!



To summarize up to here:

1.Lucifer did commit sins of ignorance.
2.Lucifer also committed sins which were not of ignorance, this latter class being unatoneable.
3.The first class of sins, God would have pardoned Lucifer for, had he repented, as these were not unatoneable.



I've not heard this point of view before. However, I don't necessarily disagree with it. I'm wanting to see it fleshed out more. It's certainly an interesting concept. The concept looks to be that even though we *think* we know what we're doing, we really don't, at least, not as Lucifer/Satan did in the full light of heaven and God's knowledge. The following seems to support your idea, if not in all its particulars, at least in spirit:



I see you quoted the same passage! It looks like we may see this similarly.



I agree, which is why Lucifer needed to repent and be pardoned.



I agree with this as well.



I agree with this, for those who love God.



I agree with this as well. He tries to keep us ignorant of the truth, to hold us in bondage.

I'm saying that in our righteousness there is a taint of sin, that we fulfill the law imperfectly. Doesn't the law require perfect righteousness? Well, our righteousness is imperfect, deficient, and it can only be considered perfect in Christ, owing to His imputed merits.


If it doesn't bar the gates of heaven to us it's because of Christ's sacrifice.


If the reference is to this, it seems sinful tendencies will be eliminated from the character before Christians put on incorruption.

The law requires a righteous life from beginning to end. It does not condemn the righteous results of “humanity combined with divinity”. Ellen wrote:

“The law requires righteousness,--a righteous life, a perfect character; and this man has not to give. He cannot meet the claims of God's holy law. But Christ, coming to the earth as man, lived a holy life, and developed a perfect character. These He offers as a free gift to all who will receive them. His life stands for the life of men. Thus they have remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God. More than this, Christ imbues men with the attributes of God. He builds up the human character after the similitude of the divine character, a goodly fabric of spiritual strength and beauty. Thus the very righteousness of the law is fulfilled in the believer in Christ. God can "be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus." Rom. 3:26. {DA 762.2}

Again, are you saying “the very righteousness of the law [that] is fulfilled in the believer in Christ” is “a form of sinning”, that it is “tainted with sin”, that it “imperfectly fulfills the law”?


But can it, in and of itself, bar the gates of heaven?


Do you believe hereditary “sinful tendencies to wrong” exist in the character we develop? Or, do you believe they exist in the sinful flesh nature we inherit at conception? Ellen wrote:


She consistently says we shall have to resist inbred sin, our hereditary sinful tendencies to wrong, until we are changed in the twinkling of an eye, at which time our nature is changed not our character. Ellen wrote:

"The characters formed in this life will determine the future destiny. When Christ shall come, He will not change the character of any individual. Precious, probationary time is given to be improved in washing our robes of character and making them white in the blood of the Lamb. To remove the stains of sin requires the work of a lifetime. Every day renewed efforts in restraining and denying self are needed. Every day there are new battles to fight and victories to be gained. Every day the soul should be called out in earnest pleading with God for the mighty victories of the cross. {4T 429.2}

"To remove the stains of sin requires the work of a lifetime." But if I'm hearing you right, you believe it is impossible to remove the taint or stain of sin in this lifetime, that "humanity and divinity combined" and its resulting "righteousness and true holiness" will always be stained with sin. Have I misunderstood your point?

Do you believe the "righteousness and true holiness" experienced after probation closes is stained with sin?


You misunderstood my first question and overlooked the second one. If, as you say, there is “no meaningful difference” between offering pardon and actually pardoning, is it safe to conclude you believe God actually pardoned Lucifer?


Ellen wrote, “There will be battles with the powers of darkness, severe struggles against selfishness and inbred sin. {BEcho, June 25, 1894 par. 5} “From the cross to the crown there is earnest work to be done. There is wrestling with inbred sin; there is warfare against outward wrong. {RH, November 29, 1887 par. 12}

She only uses the phrase “inbred sin” twice. She repeats it three times in other articles. There isn’t much to go on. Miles Grant, a Millerite convert and contemporary author, wrote, “All admit that the ‘inbred sin’, as it is called, is received from our parents, by the law of heredity, and in no other way.” He was very familiar with the ministry Ellen White; unfortunately, though, he wrote a book discounting her visions.

Link

No. I don't think "righteousness and true holiness" is ever stained with sin. I don't even think this question makes sense, as these are antonyms.



Since God's word is good, we can trust He would do what He said He would. The conditions for pardon were repentance and submission. That Lucifer chose not to comply with the conditions doesn't change anything.



It seems to me, if you look at the context, she was using the expression along the lines of the definition I quoted. I don't think she was speaking to the law of heredity. I agree with you regarding there not being much to go on.

Yes, it's in this way that I see my own works.

The words of John came forcibly to my mind, "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." 1 John 1:8. I was shown that those who triumphantly claim to be sinless, show by their very boasting that they are far from being without taint of sin. The more clearly fallen man comprehends the character of Christ, the more distrustful will he be of himself, and the more imperfect will his works appear to him, in contrast with those which marked the life of the spotless Redeemer. But those who are far from Jesus, those whose spiritual perceptions are so clouded by error that they cannot comprehend the character of the great Exemplar, conceive of Him as altogether such a one as themselves, and dare to talk of their own perfection of holiness. But they are far from God; they know little of themselves, and less of Christ. {LS 84.3}

This is also what I see Ellen White saying here:

Oh, that all may see that everything in obedience, in penitence, in praise and thanksgiving, must be placed upon the glowing fire of the righteousness of Christ. {1SM 344.2, 3}

"When it is in the heart to obey God, when efforts are put forth to this end, Jesus accepts this disposition and effort as man's best service, and He makes up for the deficiency with His own divine merit." {FW 50.1}


Of course! Could anybody, even a baby, enter heaven without Christ's sacrifice?


Sorry, but you are in no better position! According to your view, it's impossible to remove the taint or stain of sin (inbred sin) in this lifetime. Theoretically, in my view, if selfishness (tendencies to wrong) is completely removed, this would allow for the possibility of the taint of sin being removed from the Christian's obedience.

The underlined "T" should be an "R," as Rosangela said this, not I.



I take it you agree that our sinful natures will not changed until Christ's second coming. So if the "taint of sin" can be removed from us, before Christ comes, then it cannot be the case that taint of sin = having a sinful nature.

Tom, thank you for addressing my comments and questions. I think I agree with Miles Grant's definition of "inbred sin". See link above. Scroll up to page 28 to read the short section on "inbred sin". It was a popular term. It makes sense to assume Ellen's use of it was consistent with the times.

Rosangela, thank you, too. I am surprised to learn you believe "humanity and divinity combined" and its resulting "righteousness and true holiness" is "a form of sinning". Also, you might be interested to learn I do not believe "inbred sin" (sinful flesh) counts against us in judgment. It does not require atonement because it is not a commission of sin. Character, not nature, determines our eternal destiny in judgment.

I am somewhat confused by your posts.

Earlier you wrote (and I agree)

MM: "Actually, I believe sin the transgression of the law, and that the law encompasses our thoughts, feelings, motives, words, and deeds. Nothing is overlooked.


But in your last post it appears you are saying that only sins of commission are counted against people and they alone need Christ's atonement!

You wrote:
MM: Also, you might be interested to learn I do not believe "inbred sin" (sinful flesh) counts against us in judgment. It does not require atonement because it is not a commission of sin. Character, not nature, determines our eternal destiny in judgment.



Character involves far more than not committing outright sin. It encompases our thoughts, feelings, motives as well as our words and deeds.

It is on this bases that I say our best righteousness, our best obedience is still stained with thoughts and feelings and motives that aren't 100% pure and holy.

We never reach a point where we can present our own righteousness as perfect enough to stand before God. We are totally dependant upon Christ's righteousness. (That's not to say we shouldn't strive for holiness in Christ, God's followers need to reach a point where they would rather die than sin and bring dishonor to God)

But inbred sin, is still sin.

WE need to confess that as well and have it covered with Christ's atonement!

If it's not covered by Christ's atonement we can't stand before the awesome Holiness of God.

"God will be better glorified if we confess the secret, inbred corruption of the heart to Jesus....{FLB 128.4}

"We may have the peace which passeth understanding; but it will cost us battles with the powers of darkness, struggles severe against selfishness and inbred sin. {LHU 98.5}

There will be battles with the powers of darkness, severe struggles against selfishness and inbred sin. {BEcho, June 25, 1894 par. 5}

ded, I mostly agree with what you wrote. In particular:



I think it would be very dangerous to stray from this attitude.

However, I question your comment regarding "inbred sin." Actually, I agree with what you wrote, but this would be with the understanding that "inbred sin" has to do with sins we actually commit, not our heredity. For example:



it seems to me very clear this isn't dealing with our heredity.

The real question I have is, our heredity is completely beyond our choice. We can no more control our inherited characteristics in regards to our fallen flesh than any other characteristic we've inherited. What do we have to confess?

I'm assuming, in asking this question, that you are understanding "inbred sin" to mean our sinful, or fallen, flesh. But perhaps you have something else in mind, and, if so, we are probably in agreement regarding this point as well.

As with the "new truths will be revealed in the Judgment" concept, I'm talking about people, not angels.


Do you take that to mean that if I commit a sin, not knowing it is a sin, there is no sin and I don't need Christ's atonement for it? If so, that would mean there is no such thing as a sin of ignorance, but merely ignorance. That would also mean that had God not shed any light upon us, we would all be sinless.

I don't think that quote is universally applicable. If it was, Jesus was pretty mean for telling the disciples to teach people, since the world could have been sinless ignoramuses instead.

What makes you so sure? Your quote does not mention the corruption->incorruption transformation. Are you sure that we can "stand in the sight of a holy God without a mediator" while still being corrupt, and survive?

I lean more toward the idea that our corruption, especially the inbred corruption of the heart, will have to be done away with first.

Because Christ hasn't come yet. Corruption puts in incorruption is referring to the time Christ comes, which is when the righteous receive new bodies.



I said that. I was making the point that the 144,000 will stand before God without a Mediator before Christ comes, while still in sinful flesh. Therefore it cannot be sinful flesh which is being referred to in the 1SM quote (that speaks of the prayers of the saints needing to be cleansed because of the corruption of those praying), since Christ has finished His work of intercession.



The phrase "corruption puts on incorruption" is referring to the flesh; that is, to the receiving of a resurrection body. Saying "while still being corrupt" is a terribly misleading way to express this thought, IMO. From the paragraph quoted we read:



This speaks of sin being put of work, of a special work of purification. It is sin which pollutes. In order to stand before God without a mediator, it is necessary that sin be put away. But the 144,000 will still have sinful flesh. When Christ ceases His mediatorial work, until He comes to the earth, is not instantaneous.

I believe character is the result of repetitious thoughts, feelings, motives, words, and deeds. We must consciously, repetitiously dwell on or act on them to cultivate corresponding traits of character. The law looks at the results (character) not at the temptations to indulge sinful thoughts, feelings, motives, words, and deeds, to be unlike Jesus.

Being tempted from within to be unlike Jesus, to indulge unholy thoughts, feelings, motives, words, and deeds is not a sin. All temptations begin as unholy thoughts and feelings. It is never a sin to be tempted. It doesn’t matter if it originates within (sinful flesh) or without (evil angels), it is not a sin to be tempted. We are counted guilty of sinning if and when we indulge temptation. Having sinful flesh nature is not the same thing as sinning.

Also, I agree with Tom. “I don't think ‘righteousness and true holiness’ is ever stained with sin. These are antonyms.” The righteous results of combining humanity and divinity is “holy and without blame”, “without spot, and blameless”. Of course, this is not to say they aren’t ignorantly sinning. They may very well be. For example, born-again believers might keep Sunday holy, and buy and sell and work on the Sabbath not knowing they are breaking the law. But this does not mean the “righteousness and true holiness” they do experience is stained with sin.

You wrote, "Character involves far more than not committing outright sin. It encompasses our thoughts, feelings, motives as well as our words and deeds." Again, I believe sinful, cultivated traits of character are the result of repetitious choices. Each trait is the result of consciously choosing to indulge corresponding thoughts, feelings, motives, words, and actions. Indulging unholy thoughts and feelings and their resulting traits of character is outright sinning the same as indulging unholy words and actions. Do you agree?

Arnold, do you believe people are guilty of sinning because they have sinful flesh natures that tempt them from within to be unlike Jesus?

And, do you believe the 144,000 will receive sinless flesh natures when they are numbered and sealed, and that this accounts for why they can stand before God without a mediator?

Yes, I agree.
However, feelings and motives can't just be dismissed as easily as all that.


Jesus actually sought those who knew they were imperfect, those cast out by others who thought themselves perfect. Those who felt they were no longer sinners felt no need for Jesus' ministry. They were following precise habits and well disciplined, repetitious choices, that made them seem quite holy in the people's eyes as well as in their own self estimation.

I fully believe we should humbly walk with Christ in obedience, hour by hour, day by day, at all times, growing in grace and character. It's this thinking that our doings are perfectly sinless that I have problems with.

I understand inbred sin to be more than "fallen flesh" .
Everyone is born with "fallen flesh" that's what Adam gave us all. But consider that by the time a child is five (or so) they have already developed these propensities into established habits.

By the time a child reaches the age of accountablity all these inbred sins are his -- established and flourishing -- pounded into his character with great repitition.
Seems there is plenty to confess.

True, we must labor, agonize, wrestle, and strive to stay connected to Christ so that we can continue to grow in grace and mature in the fruits of the Spirit. There is nothing easy about subjecting our internal foes, our inherited tendencies to wrong, to a sanctified will and mind.


I'm having a hard time understanding what you're saying. Seems like you're saying everything they think, say, and do is stained with sin. If so, how can you refer to it as humbly walking with Jesus in obedience?


Why do you have a problem with believing the righteous results of divinity and humanity combined are perfectly sinless? I agree with you people who are in such a state are the last to know it, but it doesn't mean they are unholy or imperfect. Like Jesus, they are pure. "And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure." Like Jesus, they are righteous. "He that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous." In light of what John said, I don't see how you can say, "They are not pure like Jesus. They are not righteous like Jesus." Do you see what I mean?

Tom, are you saying "inbred sin" refers to sinning?

Here's a helpful quote:

"There are thoughts and feelings suggested and aroused by Satan that annoy even the best of men; but if they are not cherished, if they are repulsed as hateful, the soul is not contaminated with guilt, and no other is defiled by their influence. (RH 3-27-1888)

Just time for a quickie....


I believe it is similar to the distinction between perfection IN Christ and perfection LIKE Christ. A similar distinction is found between sinned IN Adam and sinned LIKE Adam.

The Christian's perfection/sinlessness is IN Christ or it is LIKE Christ. I go with IN Christ.

In such a scenario of failed temptation, does the tempter, Satan in this case, remain guiltless if his temptation was repulsed?

I'll stay away from "sinful flesh natures" since I'm still not sure we have a common definition of it, even after all these years. But I will say that I believe people are guilty of sinning if they are selfish, whether or not that selfishness surfaces.


Again, I'll avoid "sinless flesh natures."

I believe that when the 144k are sealed, their physical natures will still be fallen. However, their spiritual natures have been restored to holiness, though not necessarily exactly like Christ's. Does that answer your question?


The fallen physical nature has never been the cause of our need of a mediator. It is our sin - our selfishness - that separates us from God, requiring a Mediator to bridge the gap. When that sin is purged, then there's no more need of a Mediator. That's one view, anyway.

Another view is that Christ has always been the Mediator between God and creatures. To us, He's Jesus of Nazareth - one of us, but different. To the angels, He was Michael the Archangel - one of them, but different. But that's a whole 'nother thread.

OK. So the corruption in 1SM - "corrupt channels of humanity" - is not referring to sinful flesh. I can go for that.

Do you have any idea about what it is referring to? What kind of corruption does the true believer have now that the 144k will not have while standing before God without a Mediator?

The answer to that, BTW, will go far toward answering MM's question re: the converted Christian committing sins of ignorance.

Doesn’t it have to do with imputed versus imparted righteousness? Ellen wrote, “[The Lord] expects from us the perfection which Christ revealed in His humanity. {CG 477.1} You seem to be saying “the perfection which Christ revealed in His humanity” is stained with sin when revealed through believers. If so, why?


No. Why do you ask? Are you assuming Satan's guilt implies we are guilty because we possess a nature that temnpts us from within?


Are they selfish? Also, what is an example of subsurface selfishness?


Does God count them guilty of sin because they possess fallen physical natures? Also, are restored holy spiritual natures available now? And, in what sense are they different than Jesus’?


Does this mean God does not count us guilty of sin because we possess fallen physical natures?


Mediation does not bridge unconfessed sins. Atonement accommodates sins confessed and pardoned. What is the origin and source of “our selfishness”? Are we required to regularly repent of it? Is it volitional sin? And, how and when is it purged?

PS – Do you go along with the people who argue sin is a state of being and a state of thinking, speaking, and doing, and that we can be free of the latter but not free of the former?

Here's another quote to consider:
Though Paul had not been rejecting light - he was "strictly conscientious in his work of persecuting the saints" - he was still guilty.

Ignorance, conscientiousness, sincerity are not sufficient to completely shield the sinner from the effects of sin and restore him to God's standard. Only Christ's blood and righteousness can do that.

I believe it does. I also believe that our perfection is imputed - ours only as given to us by Jesus. The righteousness that is imparted to us can never equal the Pattern.


Christ's perfection is stained when revealed through believers. That sounds about right. Here's why I believe that:
Christ's righteousness is defiled when it passes through the corrupt channels of humanity. As the rest of the oft-quoted paragraph says, it needs Christ's cleansing blood in order to be acceptable to God. We're back to imputed righteousness again.

That, I believe, is a fundamental point of the Gospel. The sinner is incapable of offering to God what He requires. And no matter how much better he gets, he still falls short of God's glory. The only way to meet God's requirements is to offer to God the solution that He Himself gave - Himself. As Abraham said, God will provide Himself a sacrifice. The best the sinner can do in that transaction is to accept what God is offering him.

True, more than this, He changes the heart. That's another fundamental point of the Gospel. But do not confuse a changed heart with the infinite sacrifice that the broken law demands. An unfallen angel could not suffice, much less a sinful man. Only God could atone.

When I come home from work, my son sometimes offers me something he had made during the day, perhaps a toy car made from his tinkertoys, using the concepts and skills I had taught him to construct a durable structure. While he offers it as his best work, and I accept it gladly, he is not foolish enough to think that it will actually meet my needs as a vehicle. His offering is accepted, not because it meets the absolute standard, but because of the completeness of his devotion. When I need a real vehicle, I will require much more engineering than my 8-year-old can muster.

I agree with much of the above post.
But some of the previous posts-- according to the reasoning, Adam's children, if they chose to follow God -- let's say Enoch as example,-- didn't need a Savior?

Too much of the "no mediator" after propation-- the premise that I see underlying this is -- if we just get our past sins confessed and forgiven and start living perfectly we are capable (with Christ's help) to develop perfect righteousness (perfect merits) that can stand in the presence of a holy God without a mediator applying His merits.

Yet this is denied when I point it out, but then the discussion goes right back to not needing Christ's merits any longer "to bridge the gap" so then it must mean standing in our own merits.

In other words -- the message some of these posts are sending is "living without a Mediator" means presenting our own merits as "good enought" because Christ's merits are no longer available.

But -- there is another view.
Christ seals us WITH HIS MERITS.

Once probation closes there is no more turning from sin to God. We must make that choice previously. We must confess all sins and give them up surrendering self to Christ completely in order to be covered by His righteousness, but it is only by Christ's righteousness and perfection, not our own that we merit anything. It is still Christ's righteousness that covers our imperfections and gives us Godly perfection.

Arnold, I like your illustration of the child offering his gift to his father. Is it perfect, no, but it is the gift of love trying to emulate the instructions of the father and it is accepted.

That is a very good illustration of our obedience -- that's why we need to walk with Christ in humble obedience and in faith that we are accepted in Him. When we start worrying about perfection in order to make ourselves acceptable, we only end up with our eyes upon self in utter discouragement.

When do you think this condition is reversed? That is, when is "righteousness and true holiness" no longer stained with sin?

The merits of justification never cease accommodating our pardoned sins. Justification is eternal. The reason Jesus dons His most Kingly robes is because everyone alive has made the final, irrevocable decision for or against the seal of God. The 144,000 are never going to sin again. Never. Sanctification is eternal.