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Re: Does the Bible envision converted Christians committing sins of ignorance? [Re: Mountain Man] #121911
11/29/09 06:53 PM
11/29/09 06:53 PM
Rosangela  Offline
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Brazil
Quote:
There is nothing corrupt or sinful about the "fruits of the Spirit". Just because Jesus presents it to God united with His righteousness does not mean He must do so because it is corrupt and sin-stained and otherwise unacceptable to God. Not even Jesus can make something inherently corrupt and sinful acceptable to God. He first purifies the spring so that whatever flows out from it is pure and uncontaminated.

Deficient means immature (not corrupt and sin-stained). Perfect means the absence of corruption and sin. Perfection is progressive. Believers grow in perfection from perfection to perfection, from "one stage of perfection to another".

Tom knows the problem from previous discussions. You think that when a Christian is born again, his character is actually perfect and he has no longer any defects to be overcome, while I see actual perfection of character as a progressive work. It is only in Christ we are perfect, and through His imputed righteousness.

Those who expect one day to stand before the throne of the God of gods and Lord of kings, should live each day in such a way that the approval of God can rest upon them. They should seek daily to remove the blemishes in character that lead to sin, and bring into their lives the perfection of character that all must reveal who have a part in the kingdom of heaven. {YI, October 29, 1907 par. 12}

Character will always be tested. If Christ dwells in us, day by day and year by year, we shall grow into a noble heroism. This is our allotted task, but it can not be accomplished without help from Jesus, without resolute decision, unwavering purpose, continual watchfulness, and unceasing prayer. Each has a personal battle to fight; each must win his way through struggles and discouragements. Those who decline the struggle, lose the strength and joy of victory. No one, not even God, can make our characters noble or our lives useful unless we make the effort necessary on our part. We must put features of beauty into our lives. We must seek to expel the unlovely traits, while God works in us to will and to do of his good pleasure. {YI, October 29, 1907 par. 13}

Daily review of our acts, to see whether conscience approves or condemns, is necessary for all who wish to reach perfection of Christian character. Many acts which pass for good works, even deeds of benevolence, will, when closely investigated, be found to be prompted by wrong motives. {WM 315.2}


Re: Does the Bible envision converted Christians committing sins of ignorance? [Re: Rosangela] #121913
11/29/09 07:15 PM
11/29/09 07:15 PM
Rosangela  Offline
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"I do not say that I am perfect, but I am trying to be perfect. I do not expect others to be perfect; and if I could not associate with my brothers and sisters who are not perfect, I do not know what I should do. ... No one is perfect. If one were perfect, he would be prepared for heaven. As long as we are not perfect, we have a work to do to get ready to be perfect. We have a mighty Saviour." {PUR, April 29, 1915 par. 7, 8}

Phil. 3:12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect, but I am pressing on...

Re: Does the Bible envision converted Christians committing sins of ignorance? [Re: Mountain Man] #121929
11/30/09 05:58 PM
11/30/09 05:58 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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Rosangela, nice quote. Thank you for sharing it. But I'm curious. Do you think it contradicts the following quotes and concepts:

Quote:
This “work of progression will not cease, but will continue throughout eternity.” (HP 186) “Even the most perfect Christian may increase continually in the knowledge and love of God. (ML 249) “And in heaven we are continually to improve. (COL 332) “The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Through obedience comes sanctification of body, soul, and spirit. This sanctification is a progressive work, and an advance from one stage of perfection to another. (ML 250)

In heaven, believers will continue the work begun here on earth, namely, “advancing from one stage of perfection to another”. They will continue "perfecting holiness" in heaven. They will never reach a point where they can no longer become more perfect. Such "progressive work" cannot involve becoming less and less sinful. Do you agree?

Re: Does the Bible envision converted Christians committing sins of ignorance? [Re: Mountain Man] #121930
11/30/09 06:23 PM
11/30/09 06:23 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: Rosangela
You think that when a Christian is born again, his character is actually perfect and he has no longer any defects to be overcome, while I see actual perfection of character as a progressive work. It is only in Christ we are perfect, and through His imputed righteousness.

I'm glad you clarified what you think I believe. I didn't realize you think I believe born-again believers no longer have any defects to overcome. The truth is - I believe they have same the defects, weaknesses, and imperfections to overcome that they had before they experienced the miracle of rebirth. They overcome in the same way Jesus overcame. "Whatever may be our inherited or cultivated tendencies to wrong, we can overcome through the power that He is ready to impart." Ellen further describes it this way:

Quote:
If we are indeed to overcome as Christ overcame, that we may mingle with the blood-washed, glorified company before the throne of God, it is of the highest importance that we become acquainted with the life of our Redeemer and deny self as did Christ. We must meet temptations and overcome obstacles, and through toil and suffering, in the name of Jesus, overcome as He overcame. (CON 66)

In short, man must overcome as Christ overcame. And then, through the victory that it is his privilege to gain by the all-powerful name of Jesus, he may become an heir of God and joint heir with Jesus Christ. This could not be the case if Christ alone did all the overcoming. Man must do his part; he must be victor on his own account, through the strength and grace that Christ gives him. Man must be a co-worker with Christ in the labor of overcoming. (AG 254)

Those who put their trust in Christ are not to be enslaved by any hereditary or cultivated habit or tendency. Instead of being held in bondage to the lower nature, they are to rule every appetite and passion. God has not left us to battle with evil in our own finite strength. Whatever may be our inherited or cultivated tendencies to wrong, we can overcome through the power that He is ready to impart. (AG 254)

The controlling power of appetite will prove the ruin of thousands, when, if they had conquered on this point, they would have had moral power to gain the victory over every other temptation of Satan. But those who are slaves to appetite will fail in perfecting Christian character. The continual transgression of man for six thousand years has brought sickness, pain, and death as its fruits. And as we near the close of time, Satan’s temptation to indulge appetite will be more powerful and more difficult to overcome. (CD 59)

The animal propensities should not be educated and strengthened to rule the whole being. (10MR 282) Said the angel: “Sacrifice all for God. Self must die. The natural desires and propensities of the unrenewed heart must be subdued.” (1T 507) The greatest triumph given us by the religion of Christ is control over ourselves. Our natural propensities must be controlled, or we can never overcome as Christ overcame. (4T 235)

As you can see, overcoming our inherited and cultivated defects, weaknesses, and imperfections means ruling them with a sanctified will and mind, keeping them under subjection, preventing them from resurfacing and reining over us. It has nothing to do with discovering hitherto unknown cultivated sinful character traits and crucifying them. We must "deny self as did Christ." "Our natural propensities must be controlled, or we can never overcome as Christ overcame."

Do you agree this is what it means to "overcome" our defects, weaknesses, and imperfections?

Re: Does the Bible envision converted Christians committing sins of ignorance? [Re: Mountain Man] #121935
11/30/09 10:52 PM
11/30/09 10:52 PM
Rosangela  Offline
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Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Quote:
As you can see, overcoming our inherited and cultivated defects, weaknesses, and imperfections means ruling them with a sanctified will and mind, keeping them under subjection, preventing them from resurfacing and reining over us. It has nothing to do with discovering hitherto unknown cultivated sinful character traits and crucifying them. We must "deny self as did Christ." "Our natural propensities must be controlled, or we can never overcome as Christ overcame."

Mike, do you think it's possible for a born-again Christian to be selfish without realizing at the moment that he/she is being selfish? Or do you think this is impossible?

Re: Does the Bible envision converted Christians committing sins of ignorance? [Re: Rosangela] #121954
12/01/09 03:35 PM
12/01/09 03:35 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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That's a huge question. It deserves a clear answer. As always, Ellen articulates very nicely what I believe:

Quote:
When the soul surrenders itself to Christ, a new power takes possession of the new heart. A change is wrought which man can never accomplish for himself. It is a supernatural work, bringing a supernatural element into human nature. The soul that is yielded to Christ becomes His own fortress, which He holds in a revolted world, and He intends that no authority shall be known in it but His own. A soul thus kept in possession by the heavenly agencies is impregnable to the assaults of Satan. But unless we do yield ourselves to the control of Christ, we shall be dominated by the wicked one. We must inevitably be under the control of the one or the other of the two great powers that are contending for the supremacy of the world. (DA 324)

True conversion is a radical change. The very drift of the mind and bent of the heart should be turned and life become new again in Christ. (4T 17) That which was objectionable in the character is purified from the soul by the love of Jesus. All selfishness is expelled, all envy, all evil-speaking is rooted out, and a radical transformation is wrought in the heart. (RH 7-22-1890) The Lord requires perfection from His redeemed family. He expects from us the perfection which Christ revealed in His humanity. (CG 477)

No one can be omnipotent, but all can cleanse themselves from filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of the Lord. God requires every soul to be pure and holy. We have hereditary tendencies to wrong. This is a part of self that no one need carry about. It is a weakness of humanity to pet selfishness, because it is a natural trait of character. But unless all selfishness is put away, unless self is crucified, we can never be holy as God is holy. There is in humanity a tendency to suspicious imagining, which circumstances quicken into lively growth. If this trait is indulged, it spoils the character and ruins the soul. (FLB 140)

"The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God." (Rom 8:16) "Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not." (1 John 3:6) "There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it." (1 Corinthians 10:13)

"It is impossible for man to be tempted above what he is able to bear while he relies upon Jesus, the infinite Conqueror." (Con 31) I believe it is impossible, while abiding in Jesus, to be tempted without realizing it. To be selfish, the believer must first be tempted to be selfish. While abiding in Jesus, selfishness is a choice not an accident. "No man can be forced to transgress. His own consent must be first gained; the soul must purpose the sinful act before passion can dominate over reason or iniquity triumph over conscience. Temptation, however strong, is never an excuse for sin. (5T 177)

While abiding in Jesus, enlightened by the Spirit through eyes of spiritual discernment, ignorance is impossible. Selfishness is the fruit of hard hearts. "While they claimed to keep the law, they denied it by their works. Having eyes they saw not, because of the ignorance that was in them through the hardness of their hearts. The impurity of their hearts, the defiling practices of their lives, their selfishness, their envy, their jealousy, their evil surmising, their transgression of the law of God, while they claimed to keep it, bore continual testimony as to their character. {TDG 275.2}

Quote:
We may have flattered ourselves, as did Nicodemus, that our life has been upright, that our moral character is correct, and think that we need not humble the heart before God, like the common sinner: but when the light from Christ shines into our souls, we shall see how impure we are; we shall discern the selfishness of motive, the enmity against God, that has defiled every act of life. Then we shall know that our own righteousness is indeed as filthy rags, and that the blood of Christ alone can cleanse us from the defilement of sin, and renew our hearts in His own likeness. {SC 28.3}

One ray of the glory of God, one gleam of the purity of Christ, penetrating the soul, makes every spot of defilement painfully distinct, and lays bare the deformity and defects of the human character. It makes apparent the unhallowed desires, the infidelity of the heart, the impurity of the lips. The sinner's acts of disloyalty in making void the law of God, are exposed to his sight, and his spirit is stricken and afflicted under the searching influence of the Spirit of God. He loathes himself as he views the pure, spotless character of Christ. {SC 29.1}

In Christ, all sinfulness and selfishness is "exposed" and "expelled". "The sinner's acts of disloyalty in making void the law of God, are exposed to his sight, and his spirit is stricken and afflicted under the searching influence of the Spirit of God." "All selfishness is expelled, all envy, all evil-speaking is rooted out, and a radical transformation is wrought in the heart."

Re: Does the Bible envision converted Christians committing sins of ignorance? [Re: Mountain Man] #121955
12/01/09 03:42 PM
12/01/09 03:42 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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PS - Do you agree with the points I made in 121929 and 121930 (this page)?

Re: Does the Bible envision converted Christians committing sins of ignorance? [Re: Mountain Man] #121967
12/01/09 06:14 PM
12/01/09 06:14 PM
Rosangela  Offline
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Quote:
While abiding in Jesus, enlightened by the Spirit through eyes of spiritual discernment, ignorance is impossible.

Then I suppose you think that the following quote, cited in my post #121911, applies to those who haven't been born again?

Daily review of our acts, to see whether conscience approves or condemns, is necessary for all who wish to reach perfection of Christian character. Many acts which pass for good works, even deeds of benevolence, will, when closely investigated, be found to be prompted by wrong motives. {WM 315.2}

Re: Does the Bible envision converted Christians committing sins of ignorance? [Re: Rosangela] #121970
12/01/09 07:25 PM
12/01/09 07:25 PM
dedication  Online Content
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"So long as Satan reigns, we shall have self to subdue, besetting sins to overcome; so long as life shall last, there will be no stopping place, no point which we can reach and say, I have fully attained. Sanctification is the result of lifelong obedience."--AA 560, 561 (1911).

Re: Does the Bible envision converted Christians committing sins of ignorance? [Re: dedication] #121971
12/01/09 08:35 PM
12/01/09 08:35 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
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Dedication, do you think the thoughts I've been sharing contradict the quote you posted?

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