Athiests generally rely on things that are tangible and physical to deny the existence of a supreme being. In my rebelious years I tried to veiw the world in the same way, but discovered that the opposite is true. The concept of the Big Bang attempts to expain away the existence of our visible universe by physics alone. The bottom line, in athiestic thinking, is that even time and space came from absolutely nothing because nothing was ever created to begin with. I followed this line of thought and discovered a very strange place. A dimensionless void lacking the limitations of time. If such a "reality" existed the only principle physics that would exist would be the existence of it's self. Since time doesn't exist, and there is no volume of separating space, this physical property would have an infinite effect on it's self instantly and it would never end. The only thing I can think of comparing it with would be the effect on light from two opposing mirrors. This situation doesn't discribe the Big Bang, in my mind it describes an infinite deity that exists outside time and space.

None of that proves anything but, how can athiests explain the laws of physics remaining consistant and unchanging in perfect harmony throughout the universe without the presence of an unknown infinite force that operates outside the confines of space and time? Use this point and you'll make generate one or two agnostics at least. In my experience its easy to convert atheists to believe that a god might exist. Converting a protestant christian (who even believes in the Sabbath) to SDA is a very different story.

JAK, thank you for the honest response. By "perfect peace" I mean the fruit of perfect obedience, the fruit of abiding in Jesus. Jesus is the ultimate example of what I have in mind. He was in perfect harmony with the will of God. We experience perfect peace while we are in perfect harmony with the will of God. Jesus has seen the Father and His testimony serves as empirical proof. People are free to reject His testimony; however, it is unlikely they will see the Father in this lifetime. Seeing the Father is proof He exists.

But how does this "perfect peace" express itself in our life and our experience. Do we constantly experience a Buddhist-like tranquility, or a blonde oblivion to reality, or a euphoric "high" state of mind, or just what.

I agree that Jesus is our ultimate example of "perfect peace", yet he himself often showed anguish of heart, and distress, especially just before his crucifiction*, yet this was the time when he was most in harmony with God's will.

So we use these phrases like "perfect peace", and "the fruit of abiding" but we really have no concrete idea of what we are talking about. How much less do others understand our idioms if we ourselves don't know what they mean?

* We could also mention when he drove the money changers from the temple or when he healed the withered hand on the Sabbath.

JAK, it sounds like you're assuming Jesus was not experiencing "perfect peace" when He did the things you named above. Or, did I misunderstand your point? I've always thought peace and pain cohabitate in the hearts of those who love and obey God. "Perfect peace", therefore, isn't bliss or the absence of trouble. "Perfect peace" is knowing you're walking in the will of God.

What was posted in #122473 by JCS is more along the lines of what I am looking for in this thread.

Tangible evidence is what I am looking for in response to this person I spoke to over the phone.

Daryl,

Is math tangible? The reason I posted asking what this individual's areas of interest are, is that I can offer substantial proof, but if it is in an area that the person does not grasp or have interest, it may be of little use.

If the person is inclined toward math or science, I suggest reading through "The Mathematics of Evolution." You can view it online at this address: http://www.mathematicsofevolution.com/

Basically, if you start with the assumption that humans exist (we do, don't we?), and then wonder how it is that we got here, evolution does not stand a chance of having created us who we are today. We ourselves are walking, living proof that a Creator God exists.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Daryl, perfection and perfect peace is tangible evidence the bible is telling the truth about God.

MM, perfection and perfect peace are NOT tangible. Each one is personally defined, they are completely subjective, and even the Christians on this web-site (myself included--no offense intended) have not yet given a practical definition of either one.

Moreover, to say ""Perfect peace" is knowing you're walking in the will of God." and then propose this as a proof of God is completely circular in reasoning. Bear in mind that we are trying to show proof of God to an athiest who a)does't believe in God (or gods) and b)certainly does not care about walking in his will in order to find proof.

Looking at this whole question from his (the athiest's) point of view means we must step away from those forms of "proof" that "work" for (some) committed Christians and find something he will take as proof. This task is made more complex by the fact that many athiests have not thought through their belief system thoroughly enough to know what they would accept for proof. (Sadly, the same applies to many Christians as well.)

GC, I can take that as proof for me. Modern science, on the other hand, makes two assumptions where you have made one. The first assumption is that we exist. That is not really an assumption; actually it's not an assumption at all. We can show hard evidence that humans exist. (I won't even discuss this point) But the second assumption modern science makes is that God does not exist. This is much harder to argue either pro or con.

All science (indeed, all religion, all law codes, all moral codes, and probably anything eles one can think of) is based on assumptions. These assumptions create, and are reinforced by, our world view. Together they create the paradigms we operate from. To change ones view of the world you must change the paradigms, which changes the assumptions, which changes the worldview.

At the end of the day, God has not asked us to prove that he exists. He has asked us to go and make disciples. He has left the proof to himself.

We might turn this question around and ask the athiest to prove that God does not exist. You never know; it worked for C.S. Lewis.