JAK, you seem very passionate about this. I'm not as convinced as you are that personal testimony is not tangible proof everything the Bible says about God is true, especially Jesus' testimony. It matters not that atheists dismiss it.

It matters to the athiest.

As this topic is to minister to the atheist, I am looking for what can speak to the atheist. What can speak to the atheist can also definitely speak to everybody else, when it comes to both the existence of God and everything else about God.

I am hoping that both math and science are tangible to both him and every other atheist, which is why I directed him to http://www.halos.com as tangible scientific evidence of an instant creation.

Even if you can prove an Intelligent Being had to have created everything out of nothing, it still doesn't prove Christians are right about God. Are atheists better off if they believe an Intelligent Being created everything out of nothing and continue to reject Jesus Christ as their personal Savior?

That's not really the question, MM. Daryl posted 2 questions in the opening post that the athiest wanted answered:



So, as much as certain things may be evidence for us, we need to consider the person asking the question. Our evidence is certainly not their evidence. What works for us does not work for them.

Jak,

This is true, but I also see that in this particular situation, there may not exist an answer that this atheist would accept. It is really not a matter of evidence, but of belief. We could provide all the evidence in the world--does not God already give ample evidence through nature, the Bible, and through the many blessings He shares with us?

According to the OP, this gentleman "was brought up in an Adventist home and was baptized three times before finally deciding that God doesn't really exist." THREE TIMES.

His real problem is not evidence. His real problem is one of conscience. His sins have separated him from God, and how can a sinner who is separated from God understand God through evidence when he has already rejected the light? His case seems, sadly, nearly hopeless. It is a great risk to reject the light. He was brought up to know God. He has departed from the faith three times. God can forgive, but his sins are blinding him to the point of "unpardonable sin"--so called because the sins which are unconfessed and unrepented of (i.e. no pardon requested) are not pardoned. How will he ask for pardon of a Being he prefers to believe does not exist?


Instead of these questions being legitimate reasons why he cannot see God, they are excuses to him. He has reasoned that these are evidences of that which he prefers to believe in order to escape a guilty conscience--that God does not exist.

If he wishes to save himself, he needs to make a full and thorough repentance, and seek God again, through His Word, through prayer and tears. The question is, does he have left in him any desire for this? or has he entirely hardened his heart to God's Spirit?

Well, today is the first in the New Year. I wish to recommit my life to Him in this year.

Maranatha!

Green Cochoa.

JAK, thank you for steering this thread in the right direction.

GC, I agree that in cases like this one the only evidence that matters is faith. "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." May he see Jesus through us in ways that endears him to Jesus. Otherwise, like you, I suspect he is hopeless.

It sounds like there is a question in establishing God's character if it can be established that God exists. A simple model representing characteristics of God can provide insight to his character. The key principle to God is that he is infinite in all true aspects. Kurt Godel (one of the world's greatest mathmaticians and best freind of Albert Einstein) compared the principle of an infinite deity to a real number set that is composed of all other real number sets. This being the case, there can be no other number set in which this infinite set can be added to. I pondered this concept and then wondered how the effects of sin fit into the mess. Consider all of the values that exist within this infinite number set are "true values" and that all values outside this set are "false values". There would be an infinite to the infinite power of possible false values. (It seems probable that this fact is what deceived Lucifer into believing he could overwhelm the Creator by the introduction of chaos.) I suspect that these false values accurately represent sin as all things that are not in harmony with God. Since God is perfect then we must have complete faith in him that he has a perfect plan that will finally succeed in ridding creation fully of sin. Without faith we freely give up our will to the destructive power of sin itself.