|
Forums118
Topics9,199
Posts195,632
Members1,323
| |
Most Online5,850
Feb 29th, 2020
|
|
|
S |
M |
T |
W |
T |
F |
S |
|
|
|
|
1
|
2
|
3
|
4
|
|
5
|
6
|
7
|
8
|
9
|
10
|
11
|
|
12
|
13
|
14
|
15
|
16
|
17
|
18
|
|
19
|
20
|
21
|
22
|
23
|
24
|
25
|
|
26
|
27
|
28
|
29
|
30
|
31
|
|
|
|
Here is a link to show exactly where the Space Station is over earth right now: Click Here
|
|
|
|
Here is the link to this week's Sabbath School Lesson Study and Discussion Material: Click Here
|
|
Re: Lesson #11 - The Fruit of the Spirit Is RIGHTEOUSNESS
[Re: Daryl]
#123874
03/07/10 04:15 PM
03/07/10 04:15 PM
|
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
|
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
|
|
We understand righteousness in two ways. First, there is the imputed righteousness of Christ, which is what Jesus has done for us, the righteousness that covers us and that is our title to heaven. Second, there is the imparted righteousness of Christ, which is what He does in us, through the Holy Spirit, to mold us into His image. Thus understood, righteousness has two inseparable components, even though it's all really one righteousness--the righteousness of Christ, without which we would have no hope of salvation. What is the state, nature, condition, constitution of imparted righteousness? How does it compare to the righteousness Jesus manifested while here in the flesh? Is it stained with sin as some suggest? Or, is it equally pure and undefiled?
|
 Reply
 Quote
|
|
|
Re: Lesson #11 - The Fruit of the Spirit Is RIGHTEOUSNESS
[Re: Rosangela]
#123921
03/08/10 06:29 PM
03/08/10 06:29 PM
|
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
|
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
|
|
Why aren't we saved without imparted righteous?
And, why do you believe Jesus' righteousness was meritorious? I've read where His shed blood is meritorious. For example:
"This is the will of God" concerning you, "even your sanctification." 1 Thessalonians 4:3. Is it your will also? Your sins may be as mountains before you; but if you humble your heart and confess your sins, trusting in the merits of a crucified and risen Saviour, He will forgive and will cleanse you from all unrighteousness. God demands of you entire conformity to His law. This law is the echo of His voice saying to you, Holier, yes, holier still. Desire the fullness of the grace of Christ. Let your heart be filled with an intense longing for His righteousness, the work of which God's word declares is peace, and its effect quietness and assurance forever. {AA 566.2}
As your soul yearns after God, you will find more and still more of the unsearchable riches of His grace. As you contemplate these riches you will come into possession of them and will reveal the merits of the Saviour's sacrifice, the protection of His righteousness, the fullness of His wisdom, and His power to present you before the Father "without spot, and blameless." 2 Peter 3:14. {AA 567.1}
But while God can be just, and yet justify the sinner through the merits of Christ, no man can cover his soul with the garments of Christ's righteousness while practicing known sins or neglecting known duties. God requires the entire surrender of the heart, before justification can take place; and in order for man to retain justification, there must be continual obedience, through active, living faith that works by love and purifies the soul. {FW 100.1}
|
|
Reply
Quote
|
|
|
Re: Lesson #11 - The Fruit of the Spirit Is RIGHTEOUSNESS
[Re: Mountain Man]
#123969
03/10/10 04:01 PM
03/10/10 04:01 PM
|
5500+ Member
|
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
|
|
Why aren't we saved without imparted righteous? Because God doesn't save willfully disobedient people. OTOH, only perfect obedience can save, and ours isn't a perfect obedience. And, why do you believe Jesus' righteousness was meritorious? This has to do with Covenant Theology. Although Adam enjoyed God’s favor because he had no sin, yet he was to obey, if he would enjoy eternal life. Thus he must have: 1) not only a negative righteousness: he was not guilty of anything; but also 2) a positive righteousness: he must obey - overcome Satan - that he might inherit eternal life When he sinned, 1) he became guilty of transgression, forfeited God’s favor and became subject to the penalty 2) he failed to obey positively, failed to overcome the devil, and thus forfeited eternal life. Therefore, in the covenant of grace, the representative of humanity, the second Adam, must 1) by satisfying the penalty, clear the slate and reinstate us in God’s favor _ Adam’s original condition. (This is called Christ’s passive obedience - His death.) 2) accomplish the probationary assignment of overcoming the devil and presenting a perfect obedience, earning for us eternal life _ God’s promised reward. (This is called Christ’s active obedience - His life.) There is an inexhaustible fund of perfect obedience accruing from His obedience. In heaven His merits, His self-denial and self-sacrifice, are treasured up as incense to be offered up with the prayers of His people. As the sinner's sincere, humble prayers ascend to the throne of God, Christ mingles with them the merits of His life of perfect obedience. Our prayers are made fragrant by this incense. . . . {HP 69.3} Our liberty was procured by Christ, by his spotless, meritorious life and death.{RH, July 29, 1890 par. 8}
|
|
Reply
Quote
|
|
|
Re: Lesson #11 - The Fruit of the Spirit Is RIGHTEOUSNESS
[Re: Mountain Man]
#123990
03/10/10 08:48 PM
03/10/10 08:48 PM
|
5500+ Member
|
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
|
|
Rosangela, thank you for addressing my questions and comments. It looks to me as though you are firmly entrenched in the idea that the righteous results of abiding in Jesus is corrupt and contained with sin and selfishness and wholly unacceptable and displeasing to our heavenly Father. Mike, what I believe is this: But are good works of no real value? Is the sinner who commits sin every day with impunity, regarded of God with the same favor as the one who through faith in Christ tries to work in his integrity? The Scripture answers,"We are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." In His divine arrangement, through His unmerited favor, the Lord has ordained that good works shall be rewarded. We are accepted through Christ's merit alone; and the acts of mercy, the deeds of charity, which we perform, are the fruits of faith; and they become a blessing to us; for men are to be rewarded according to their works. It is the fragrance of the merit of Christ that makes our good works acceptable to God, and it is grace that enables us to do the works for which He rewards us. Our works in and of themselves have no merit. . . . We deserve no thanks from God. We have only done what it was our duty to do, and our works could not have been performed in the strength of our own sinful natures. {OHC 122.3} So, without Christ's merit our good works are unacceptable to God. Why do you think they are unacceptable to God? And is it your contention that after probation closes they will be acceptable to God without Christ's merit? What you haven't made clear yet is when and how you believe Jesus will correct this state of sin and sinfulness so that we can enjoy and experience "the condition of sinlessness in which Adam lived before his transgression." Ellen White makes it sound like this sweet experience has been available to everyone since the Fall. Indeed, she makes it sound like it is "imperative" otherwise they will not be in heaven. You, on the other hand, make it sound like it's not possible in this lifetime. Do you see my dilemma? Mike, I think "sinlessness" here means not committing acts of sin, and to me this is perfectly possible in this lifetime.
|
|
Reply
Quote
|
|
|
Re: Lesson #11 - The Fruit of the Spirit Is RIGHTEOUSNESS
[Re: Rosangela]
#124011
03/11/10 03:29 AM
03/11/10 03:29 AM
|
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
|
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
|
|
Rosangela, I believe that the righteous results of abiding in Jesus is the meritorious result of Jesus abiding in us, that the fruit of "humanity and divinity combined" is wholly acceptable to God, and that no matter when or where it happens such godliness and true holiness is the result of "Christ in you, the hope of glory". Eternity isn't long enough to make void the merits of His blood and righteousness. Eventually Jesus will cease mediating in the Most Holy Place, but He will never cease dwelling in the hearts and minds of those who love and serve Him.
Also, regarding Ellen's use of the word "sinlessness" in the passage I quoted above, do you really believe that it merely refers to sinless acts, that it doesn't also refer to "humanity and divinity combined" and possessing a Christlike nature, "a nature far above that which Adam forfeited by transgression"?
|
|
Reply
Quote
|
|
|
Re: Lesson #11 - The Fruit of the Spirit Is RIGHTEOUSNESS
[Re: Mountain Man]
#124013
03/11/10 01:43 PM
03/11/10 01:43 PM
|
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
|
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
|
|
I think the questions I asked in the other thread come into play here. That is, what was man's problem, and how did God fix it? The following has been helpful to me in thinking about this: He would make them (the wicked) happy if He could do so in accordance with the laws of His government and the justice of His character. He surrounds them with the tokens of His love, He grants them a knowledge of His law, and follows them with the offers of His mercy; but they despise His love, make void His law, and reject His mercy. While constantly receiving His gifts, they dishonor the Giver; they hate God because they know that He abhors their sins. The Lord bears long with their perversity; but the decisive hour will come at last, when their destiny is to be decided. Will He then chain these rebels to His side? Will He force them to do His will?
Those who have chosen Satan as their leader and have been controlled by his power are not prepared to enter the presence of God. Pride, deception, licentiousness, cruelty, have become fixed in their characters. Can they enter heaven to dwell forever with those whom they despised and hated on earth? Truth will never be agreeable to a liar; meekness will not satisfy self-esteem and pride; purity is not acceptable to the corrupt; disinterested love does not appear attractive to the selfish. What source of enjoyment could heaven offer to those who are wholly absorbed in earthly and selfish interests?
Could those whose lives have been spent in rebellion against God be suddenly transported to heaven and witness the high, the holy state of perfection that ever exists there,-- every soul filled with love, every countenance beaming with joy, enrapturing music in melodious strains rising in honor of God and the Lamb, and ceaseless streams of light flowing upon the redeemed from the face of Him who sitteth upon the throne,--could those whose hearts are filled with hatred of God, of truth and holiness, mingle with the heavenly throng and join their songs of praise? Could they endure the glory of God and the Lamb? No, no; years of probation were granted them, that they might form characters for heaven; but they have never trained the mind to love purity; they have never learned the language of heaven, and now it is too late. A life of rebellion against God has unfitted them for heaven. Its purity, holiness, and peace would be torture to them; the glory of God would be a consuming fire. They would long to flee from that holy place. They would welcome destruction, that they might be hidden from the face of Him who died to redeem them. The destiny of the wicked is fixed by their own choice. Their exclusion from heaven is voluntary with themselves, and just and merciful on the part of God. (GC 541-542) This really gets at the issue of why the lost will be lost. It's all about character. The character doesn't change at death. We need to have characters in harmony with God and the principles of His government, or we wouldn't be happy in heaven. Thinking about things in this terms begs the question: How does God prepare us for heaven? How to get from "me first" to agape?
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
|
|
Reply
Quote
|
|
|
Re: Lesson #11 - The Fruit of the Spirit Is RIGHTEOUSNESS
[Re: Mountain Man]
#124031
03/12/10 10:42 PM
03/12/10 10:42 PM
|
Active Member 2012
Very Dedicated Member
|
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,826
E. Oregon, USA
|
|
We understand righteousness in two ways. First, there is the imputed righteousness of Christ, which is what Jesus has done for us, the righteousness that covers us and that is our title to heaven. Second, there is the imparted righteousness of Christ, which is what He does in us, through the Holy Spirit, to mold us into His image. Thus understood, righteousness has two inseparable components, even though it's all really one righteousness--the righteousness of Christ, without which we would have no hope of salvation. What is the state, nature, condition, constitution of imparted righteousness? How does it compare to the righteousness Jesus manifested while here in the flesh? Is it stained with sin as some suggest? Or, is it equally pure and undefiled? Well - oh, happy Sabbath for just now..., and: a few Qs!  Why so anxious about imparted righteousness? The lesson is missing half of im puted righteousness, as it happens. This is my tuppence worth: imparted R is Jesus character traits taught to us through his Spirit, by whom we also partake of the divine nature, and installed step by step into our characters, ie. lives, as we cooperate with Jesus in learning of him: called the sanctified life, it is neither meritorious in us nor stained by sin. Just like Jesus' perfectly righteous mind and character were untainted by his assumed sinful human flesh and he developed meritorious traits, so our walk with him in developing Christlike traits is untainted. "Corruption never rested" on him, and we learn of him. As for our impurities, she also says that we need not retain a single sinful propensity and therefore we can and may reject all sinful inclinations which wait for translation/resurrection for being done away with. A study of Jesus' baptism of repentance, "fulfilling all righteousness", helps to clarify this as we follow his example there too, I've found. The real problem in this lesson exerpt, is: "imputed R...is what Jesus has done for us." It is emphatically also what he does in us!! Unless righteousness is imputed into us, ie. the mind of Christ, imparted righteousness can't happen: without the renewed mind/new creation being part of imputed R, justification by faith, it cannot happen at all. For documentation on this two-fold truth of imputed R, which lesson adamantly refuses to teach everytime it needs mentioning, see this document at the GC BRI, under "dynamics of justification" half way down, and "subjective...essential component": http://www.adventistbiblicalresearch.org/documents/Universal%20Justification.htmPerfect obedience is what we want - with Jesus and by his power, but it actually can happen only if we are regenerated by justification by faith, as Steps to Christ also says.  Rebirth 'delayed' till and made part of sanctification - even if only by default when the teaching doesn't specify - is a non-starter: sorry.  Sanctification is no "rebirth" but only actually the transformation of character consequent of the imputed "mind of Christ". So, imputed righteousness is mainly in us, not just pardon for us, and obedience is a clear condition of salvation, else faith would be both dead and unperfected.
|
|
Reply
Quote
|
|
|
|
|
