What is the state, nature, condition, constitution of imparted righteousness? How does it compare to the righteousness Jesus manifested while here in the flesh? Is it stained with sin as some suggest? Or, is it equally pure and undefiled?

Why aren't we saved by imparted righteousness?

The righteousness Jesus manifested while here in the flesh was meritorious. The righteousness we manifest isn't. Why?

Why aren't we saved without imparted righteous?

And, why do you believe Jesus' righteousness was meritorious? I've read where His shed blood is meritorious. For example:

"This is the will of God" concerning you, "even your sanctification." 1 Thessalonians 4:3. Is it your will also? Your sins may be as mountains before you; but if you humble your heart and confess your sins, trusting in the merits of a crucified and risen Saviour, He will forgive and will cleanse you from all unrighteousness. God demands of you entire conformity to His law. This law is the echo of His voice saying to you, Holier, yes, holier still. Desire the fullness of the grace of Christ. Let your heart be filled with an intense longing for His righteousness, the work of which God's word declares is peace, and its effect quietness and assurance forever. {AA 566.2}

As your soul yearns after God, you will find more and still more of the unsearchable riches of His grace. As you contemplate these riches you will come into possession of them and will reveal the merits of the Saviour's sacrifice, the protection of His righteousness, the fullness of His wisdom, and His power to present you before the Father "without spot, and blameless." 2 Peter 3:14. {AA 567.1}

But while God can be just, and yet justify the sinner through the merits of Christ, no man can cover his soul with the garments of Christ's righteousness while practicing known sins or neglecting known duties. God requires the entire surrender of the heart, before justification can take place; and in order for man to retain justification, there must be continual obedience, through active, living faith that works by love and purifies the soul. {FW 100.1}

Because God doesn't save willfully disobedient people. OTOH, only perfect obedience can save, and ours isn't a perfect obedience.


This has to do with Covenant Theology.

Although Adam enjoyed God’s favor because he had no sin, yet he was to obey, if he would enjoy eternal life. Thus he must have:
1) not only a negative righteousness: he was not guilty of anything; but also
2) a positive righteousness: he must obey - overcome Satan - that he might inherit eternal life

When he sinned,
1) he became guilty of transgression, forfeited God’s favor and became subject to the penalty
2) he failed to obey positively, failed to overcome the devil, and thus forfeited eternal life.

Therefore, in the covenant of grace, the representative of humanity, the second Adam, must
1) by satisfying the penalty, clear the slate and reinstate us in God’s favor _ Adam’s original condition. (This is called Christ’s passive obedience - His death.)
2) accomplish the probationary assignment of overcoming the devil and presenting a perfect obedience, earning for us eternal life _ God’s promised reward. (This is called Christ’s active obedience - His life.)

There is an inexhaustible fund of perfect obedience accruing from His obedience. In heaven His merits, His self-denial and self-sacrifice, are treasured up as incense to be offered up with the prayers of His people. As the sinner's sincere, humble prayers ascend to the throne of God, Christ mingles with them the merits of His life of perfect obedience. Our prayers are made fragrant by this incense. . . . {HP 69.3}

Our liberty was procured by Christ, by his spotless, meritorious life and death.{RH, July 29, 1890 par. 8}

Rosangela, thank you for addressing my questions and comments. It looks to me as though you are firmly entrenched in the idea that the righteous results of abiding in Jesus is corrupt and contained with sin and selfishness and wholly unacceptable and displeasing to our heavenly Father.

What you haven't made clear yet is when and how you believe Jesus will correct this state of sin and sinfulness so that we can enjoy and experience "the condition of sinlessness in which Adam lived before his transgression." Ellen White makes it sound like this sweet experience has been available to everyone since the Fall. Indeed, she makes it sound like it is "imperative" otherwise they will not be in heaven. You, on the other hand, make it sound like it's not possible in this lifetime. Do you see my dilemma?

Mike, what I believe is this:

But are good works of no real value? Is the sinner who commits sin every day with impunity, regarded of God with the same favor as the one who through faith in Christ tries to work in his integrity? The Scripture answers,"We are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." In His divine arrangement, through His unmerited favor, the Lord has ordained that good works shall be rewarded. We are accepted through Christ's merit alone; and the acts of mercy, the deeds of charity, which we perform, are the fruits of faith; and they become a blessing to us; for men are to be rewarded according to their works. It is the fragrance of the merit of Christ that makes our good works acceptable to God, and it is grace that enables us to do the works for which He rewards us. Our works in and of themselves have no merit. . . . We deserve no thanks from God. We have only done what it was our duty to do, and our works could not have been performed in the strength of our own sinful natures. {OHC 122.3}

So, without Christ's merit our good works are unacceptable to God. Why do you think they are unacceptable to God? And is it your contention that after probation closes they will be acceptable to God without Christ's merit?


Mike, I think "sinlessness" here means not committing acts of sin, and to me this is perfectly possible in this lifetime.

Rosangela, I believe that the righteous results of abiding in Jesus is the meritorious result of Jesus abiding in us, that the fruit of "humanity and divinity combined" is wholly acceptable to God, and that no matter when or where it happens such godliness and true holiness is the result of "Christ in you, the hope of glory". Eternity isn't long enough to make void the merits of His blood and righteousness. Eventually Jesus will cease mediating in the Most Holy Place, but He will never cease dwelling in the hearts and minds of those who love and serve Him.

Also, regarding Ellen's use of the word "sinlessness" in the passage I quoted above, do you really believe that it merely refers to sinless acts, that it doesn't also refer to "humanity and divinity combined" and possessing a Christlike nature, "a nature far above that which Adam forfeited by transgression"?

I think the questions I asked in the other thread come into play here. That is, what was man's problem, and how did God fix it?

The following has been helpful to me in thinking about this:



This really gets at the issue of why the lost will be lost. It's all about character.

The character doesn't change at death. We need to have characters in harmony with God and the principles of His government, or we wouldn't be happy in heaven. Thinking about things in this terms begs the question: How does God prepare us for heaven? How to get from "me first" to agape?

Well - oh, happy Sabbath for just now..., and: a few Qs!

Why so anxious about imparted righteousness? The lesson is missing half of imputed righteousness, as it happens.

This is my tuppence worth: imparted R is Jesus character traits taught to us through his Spirit, by whom we also partake of the divine nature, and installed step by step into our characters, ie. lives, as we cooperate with Jesus in learning of him: called the sanctified life, it is neither meritorious in us nor stained by sin. Just like Jesus' perfectly righteous mind and character were untainted by his assumed sinful human flesh and he developed meritorious traits, so our walk with him in developing Christlike traits is untainted. "Corruption never rested" on him, and we learn of him.

As for our impurities, she also says that we need not retain a single sinful propensity and therefore we can and may reject all sinful inclinations which wait for translation/resurrection for being done away with. A study of Jesus' baptism of repentance, "fulfilling all righteousness", helps to clarify this as we follow his example there too, I've found.

The real problem in this lesson exerpt, is: "imputed R...is what Jesus has done for us." It is emphatically also what he does in us!! Unless righteousness is imputed into us, ie. the mind of Christ, imparted righteousness can't happen: without the renewed mind/new creation being part of imputed R, justification by faith, it cannot happen at all.

For documentation on this two-fold truth of imputed R, which lesson adamantly refuses to teach everytime it needs mentioning, see this document at the GC BRI, under "dynamics of justification" half way down, and "subjective...essential component": http://www.adventistbiblicalresearch.org/documents/Universal%20Justification.htm

Perfect obedience is what we want - with Jesus and by his power, but it actually can happen only if we are regenerated by justification by faith, as Steps to Christ also says. Rebirth 'delayed' till and made part of sanctification - even if only by default when the teaching doesn't specify - is a non-starter: sorry. Sanctification is no "rebirth" but only actually the transformation of character consequent of the imputed "mind of Christ".

So, imputed righteousness is mainly in us, not just pardon for us, and obedience is a clear condition of salvation, else faith would be both dead and unperfected.

This is wrong, totally wrong: wrong answer from wrong text, misrepresenting grace, too!

Rom 5:17 speaks of gifts "received", not gifts "bestowed" as the lesson says: I regularly use the German published SS lesson and it states that the gift is a "blanket gift", and directly reverses the condemnation resulting from Adam's sin, "lifting it up" for "all men". Rom 5:18 isn't discussed in the English lesson, and it states the condemnation from one offence is matched and surpassed by the free gift of justification for life coming "upon all men" by the righteous act of one.

This direct intervention of grace in human affairs is the true size of grace, and the lesson needs urgent correction! This size and language of agape motivates to heart felt obedience, not so!

Colin, what are, in your view, "the corrupt channels of humanity"?

The bodies of sinners: "corrupt" describes the result of sinning. "Carnal" is like this, too, but we are not born carnal or corrupt, just sinful. Despite sinfulness being a condemned state of being, sinning is necessary to become corrupted. Jesus didn't sin so his humanity wasn't spoiled by corruption.

Otherwise, I don't dwell on "corrupt" much, as you know.

But if something in us is corrupt, how can you say that "our walk with him in developing Christlike traits is untainted"?

We learn about righteousness and abandon sinful habits & traits for Christlike alternatives, till even only our sinful inclinations remain to be rejected: this all is nothing meritorious but fitting us for heaven.

That Jesus wants to and is able to perfect this experience of righteousness in us with us, teaching us with his own character, is the essence of "present truth": that our characters lose all taint of sin to be fully Christlike (Eph 4:13b) is all we know, so let's not get picky about our abhorred sinfulness that we are growing out of, hey?

???
Colin, even if we could reach a point where we could be considered free from all taint of sin, how can the process which leads to this, and takes a lifetime, be considered "untainted"? We don't become perfect in an instant, and our flaws during the whole process are quite evident.

From before:

I think the questions I asked in the other thread come into play here. That is, what was man's problem, and how did God fix it?

The following has been helpful to me in thinking about this:




This really gets at the issue of why the lost will be lost. It's all about character.

The character doesn't change at death. We need to have characters in harmony with God and the principles of His government, or we wouldn't be happy in heaven. Thinking about things in this terms begs the question: How does God prepare us for heaven? How to get from "me first" to agape?

Continuing:

I don't think all the talk about imputed/imparted righteousness is really getting to the core issue, which is how is it that we can be resurrected so that we would be happy in heaven, given that our characters won't change at death. What needs to happen? And how does imputed/imparted righteousness fit into this?

1.Where did Colin say anything about the process being untainted?

2.What would this mean? (that the process is untainted)

Where in the Bible or the SOP does it say it takes a lifetime to reach Adam's prefall state of sinlessness? Inspiration clearly teaches sinless perfection is received the instant we experience the miracle of rebirth. The problem is most people do not experience rebirth. Jesus is the standard of what rebirth looks like. In Christ true, genuine rebirth enables people to be like Christ. They are born again dead to sin and sinful flesh and are wide awake to righteousness and true holiness. Jesus implants in them all the righteous fruits and attributes of God's character the instant they are born again. Not one is missing.

Then, in Christ and like Christ, they spend the rest of their life growing in grace and maturing in the fruits of the Spirit from "faith to faith", from "glory to glory", from "grace to grace" - not from greater sins to lesser sins until they cease to sin. God is a creationist not an evolutionist. The Holy Spirit will not, cannot, dwell in them while they are learning to sin less often and less intensely.

The difference between getting angry and merely yelling at someone rather than punching them is not growth in grace. Nor is it representative of the process of sanctification. Instead, such "progress" is evolution and the difference results in fewer "stripes" during final judgment. It is condemnation not sanctification. The idea that sanctification is a process whereby people become more and more like Jesus by becoming less and less like Satan is a fatal deception.

In Christ and like Christ growth in grace is a process whereby people who are born again and who are abiding in Jesus mature more and more in the fruits of the Spirit. Sanctification is the process of "perfecting holiness" not unperfecting unholiness. It's "an advance from one stage of perfection to another." While they are actively and aggressively abiding in Jesus they "do not sin" and, in fact, they "cannot sin".

This is not to say, however, they are incapable of sinning. They are always free to sin. In reality, though, no one is free to sin until they are free from sin. Otherwise, they are natural-born slaves of sin, self, and Satan. All they can do, apart from Jesus, is sin.

The moment they neglect to abide in Jesus they resurrect, as it were, their old man and they instantly resume sinning. The Holy Spirit immediately begins impressing them to receive the gift of repentance, which, when received and experienced, enables them to repent and to resume abiding in Jesus resisting temptation and maturing in the fruits of the Spirit.

Also, merely possessing corrupt channels, defects, weaknesses, and imperfections is not the same thing as being in the mind of the old man and sinning. People are not guilty or condemned because they inherited inbred evil inclinations, tendencies, propensities which continually tempt them from within to be unlike Jesus. So long as they are abiding in Jesus and reining in their inbred evil, subjecting it to the control of a sanctified will and mind, the Holy Spirit empowers them to satisfy their appetites and passions to the honor and glory of God.

This is what it means to "overcome as Christ overcame."

No it doesn't. Do you realize this is a radical pronouncement? I don't think I've ever seen this before.

Sinless perfection is something reserved for Jesus Christ. By the grace of Christ, we can achieve the condition of sinlessness which Adam had before his fall (famous EGW quote) but

1.Nothing says this happens immediately as soon as one as converted.

2.She speaks of a "condition of sinlessness" which means living without sinning. It doesn't mean "sinless perfection," a phrase which Ellen White never used except in relation to Jesus Christ.

The righteous mind imputed to us is untainted and the imparted character traits we receive and make our own are untainted: to stick to our point - here - we retain sinful flesh till translation, so it's only the imparted character we receive that is Christlike. Why your question?

Tom, so far as sinlessness and perfection are concerned, in practical terms do you see a huge difference between the two?

"Be ye therefore perfect" (Matt. 5:48) is God's word to us. And in order that we might obey this word, He sent His only-begotten Son to this earth to live in our behalf a perfect life. We have before us His example, and the strength by which He lived this life is at our disposal. In thought, word, and act Jesus was sinless. Perfection marked all that He did. He points us to the path that He trod, saying, "If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me" (Matt. 16:24). {HP 166.4}

"Sinlessness" and "sinless" are two different things. "Sinless" is never used by EGW, except in reference to Christ. "Sinlessness" is the condition of not sinning.

"Sinless perfection" is not a condition of to be born again, and no one who is born again is sinless (except Christ, if you want to count Him as born again).

"Perfect" can mean different things, depending upon the context. It may mean "full" or "complete," especially if it's translated from the Greek.

EGW writes:



This is the best statement I know on the subject of perfection of character, explaining the verse "Be ye therefore perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect." I highlighted a couple of things. Of special note is this is something God will accomplish in all those who do not frustrate His grace by interposing a perverse will. This is our part; to not interpose a perverse will and thus frustrate His grace.

Also of note is that the Jews attempted to reach perfection by their own efforts and failed.

In what sense was Jesus "sinless" whereas the people described above are not? And, when they reach Adam's pre-fall state of sinlessness, in what sense are they not "sinless" like Jesus?

Also, you said our part is to allow God to do His part. However, God's part is to empower us to do our part. He empowers us to use our faculties of mind and body to resist sin and to mature in the fruits of the Spirit, to become more and more like Jesus. Do you agree?

Ellen wrote:

We are to do all that we can do on our part to fight the good fight of faith. We are to wrestle, to labor, to strive, to agonize to enter in at the strait gate. We are to set the Lord ever before us. With clean hands, with pure hearts, we are to seek to honor God in all our ways. Help has been provided for us in Him who is mighty to save. The spirit of truth and light will quicken and renew us by its mysterious workings; for all our spiritual improvement comes from God, not from ourselves. The true worker will have divine power to aid him, but the idler will not be sustained by the Spirit of God. {FW 48.1}

In one way we are thrown upon our own energies; we are to strive earnestly to be zealous and to repent, to cleanse our hands and purify our hearts from every defilement; we are to reach the highest standard, believing that God will help us in our efforts. We must seek if we would find, and seek in faith; we must knock, that the door may be opened unto us. The Bible teaches that everything regarding our salvation depends upon our own course of action. If we perish, the responsibility will rest wholly upon ourselves. If provision has been made, and if we accept God's terms, we may lay hold on eternal life. We must come to Christ in faith, we must be diligent to make our calling and election sure. {FW 48.2}

To make God's grace our own, we must act our part. The Lord does not propose to perform for us either the willing or the doing. His grace is given to work in us to will and to do, but never as a substitute for our effort. Our souls are to be aroused to cooperate. The Holy Spirit works in us, that we may work out our own salvation. . . . Fine mental qualities and a high tone of moral character are not the result of accident. God gives opportunities; success depends upon the use made of them. The openings of Providence must be quickly discerned and eagerly entered. There are many who might become mighty men, if, like Daniel, they would depend upon God for grace to be overcomers, and for strength and efficiency to do their work. {AG 111.3}

Christ never sinned, in thought, word or deed.



No, I said, "This is our part; to not interpose a perverse will and thus frustrate His grace." which is what Ellen White said, or very close to it: "He will accomplish this for all who do not interpose a perverse will and thus frustrate His grace." If you don't like the way I phrased, I'm happy to use her words. The idea I was wishing to express is that God will accomplish our perfection if we do not interpose a perverse will and thus frustrate His grace.

He said, "our walk with him in developing Christlike traits is untainted."
I understood this to refer to the process of sanctification. Am I wrong?

Mike, the quote says,

Those who believe on Christ and obey His commandments are not under bondage to God's law; for to those who believe and obey, His law is not a law of bondage, but of liberty. Every one who believes on Christ, every one who relies on the keeping power of a risen Saviour that has suffered the penalty pronounced upon the transgressor, every one who resists temptation and in the midst of evil copies the pattern given in the Christ-life, will through faith in the atoning sacrifice of Christ become a partaker of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. Every one who by faith obeys God's commandments, will reach the condition of sinlessness in which Adam lived before his transgression. {ST, July 23, 1902 par. 14}

The text says, "every one who by faith obeys God's commandments, will reach..." The text also portrays these as being "Every one who believes on Christ, every one who relies on the keeping power of a risen Saviour that has suffered the penalty pronounced upon the transgressor, every one who resists temptation and in the midst of evil copies the pattern given in the Christ-life." This, to me, is speaking of sanctification, not justification.

Just from the little bit you wrote, I thought I knew what he was getting at, which is that the flesh does not corrupt. It looks like you were focusing on just the part you quoted without taking into account the whole sentence:



The highlighted part makes it clear that Colin's idea is that the flesh does not corrupt or taint, doesn't it?

Tom, thank you.

Rosangela, thank you.

Yes, Tom, that was my thought, as well as that becoming Christlike is perfectly righteous, shedding tainted character traits not sinful flesh...

My original point, here, was not about character, though! I was pointing out that the quarterly contradicts church publications - if only official online papers (that I've found thus far (under dynamics of justification, below): http://www.adventistbiblicalresearch.org/documents/Universal%20Justification.htm) - by saying that imputed righteousness is done only "for us" and not also "in us". Unless we are reborn by the Spirit of God with imputed righteousness - the experience in us of justification (Palmdale Statement), there can be no perfect sanctification in us, either - merely imperfect human effort.

What we happen to experience with God daily and what we believe should complement each other, but do we misunderstand our beliefs or even hold false teachings by accident. What is the true Adventism?

We believe imputed and imparted, justification and sanctification, both constitute the gospel for us and in us: imputed merits must make us a new creation, too, or else there's nowhere for the daily experience of gospel justification and character development to happen. We are character-changed within since we are mind-renewed within in the first place: justification is both legal in nature and internal in experience.

This is one of several truths making Seventh-day Adventism what it is for the world and itself.

Colin, do you think the following insight reflects what you're saying:

But while God can be just, and yet justify the sinner through the merits of Christ, no man can cover his soul with the garments of Christ's righteousness while practicing known sins, or neglecting known duties. God requires the entire surrender of the heart, before justification can take place; and in order for man to retain justification, there must be continual obedience, through active, living faith that works by love and purifies the soul. {1SM 366.1}

PS - What do you think about "continual obedience"?

All true obedience comes from the heart. It was heart work with Christ. And if we consent, He will so identify Himself with our thoughts and aims, so blend our hearts and minds into conformity to His will, that when obeying Him we shall be but carrying out our own impulses. The will, refined and sanctified, will find its highest delight in doing His service. When we know God as it is our privilege to know Him, our life will be a life of continual obedience. Through an appreciation of the character of Christ, through communion with God, sin will become hateful to us. As Christ lived the law in humanity, so we may do if we will take hold of the Strong for strength. {DA 668}

PPS - There are people who actually believe all such obedience is tainted with sin and corruption.

2nd Q: not so, since Christ's imputed and imparted righteousness is, in us, also perfectly righteous. The Christlike character of the saints is devoid of sin and corruption, as the mind of Christ imputed to us - hence "in us" - is equally righteous in fact: we experience justification.

1st Q: "continual" means "without end" but not "without interruption". Analogous to a dotted line on the road and a solid line: now both these road markings have ends, but they illustrate the "without interruption" of "continuous" and the "without end" that "continual" is.
Continual obedience means space for falling into sin occasionally while learning to live by grace through faith: justification is by daily recommitment of faith, so we stay connected with Christ to experience righteousness.

Back to my original point...: Unless, the mind of Christ is imputed rather than imparted to us, created in us indeed, we cannot experience justification by faith as truly we do according to the Bible. Misplacing the mind of Christ, the rebirth, in imparted righteousness, i.e. sanctification - even if only by not placing it where it belongs, is false teaching, therefore, in effect: the power of the message is gone.

Colin, your explanation of "continual obedience" isn't clear to me. Here's what Ellen wrote:

"God requires the entire surrender of the heart, before justification can take place; and in order for man to retain justification, there must be continual obedience, through active, living faith that works by love and purifies the soul." "When we know God as it is our privilege to know Him, our life will be a life of continual obedience."

And here's what you wrote: "Continual obedience means space for falling into sin occasionally while learning to live by grace through faith. . . ."

It sounds like you're saying Ellen used "continual obedience" to mean disobeying occasionally. Or, did I misunderstand your point?

If Ellen meant to say, "When people surrender themselves to God entirely, when they know God as Jesus did, they will experience unbroken, uninterrupted, continual obedience like Jesus did" how would she say it? And, did she ever say it? If so, where?

Of course, even my statement above, that is, "unbroken, uninterrupted, continual obedience", does not imply born-again believers lose the ability or freedom to sin. They are always free to sin; even in heaven they are free to sin. However, the statement above is referring to the fact that, while abiding in Jesus, believers "do not sin" and "cannot sin". In other words, the righteous results of abiding in Jesus does not include occasional disobedience. Sinning is something that happens while believers are not abiding in Jesus. It does not and cannot happen while they are abiding in Jesus. Such obedience is literally continual. It is not interrupted or occasionally disobedient.

Do you see what I mean?

Is not abiding in Jesus a sin?

Tom, not abiding in Jesus is unbelief by choice or by omission, so is sin, for sin is separation from God. It's a principle, of course.

MM, "continual" is what you're misunderstanding, and sorry for being unhelpful last time: you switched around the definitions I supplied but those definitions are correct.

Continuous means occurring without interruption - or, here, sinning, from the start; continual means occurring without end - or as good as non-stop - but also occurring with gaps or interruptions, so, here, admitting to unintentional sinning.

So, "continual obedience" is what we go through, is it not?

Now! What of my original point, hey?!

Tom, neglecting to abide in Jesus results in sinning. Sinning is a sin.

My question is if not abiding in Jesus is itself a sin. Specifically, say you are abiding in Jesus. You make the decision (either by choice or neglect) to not abide in Jesus. Have you sinned?



What of this? Do you agree with what Colin has said here?

Colin, I'm struggling with the idea that "continual obedience" includes gaps, interruptions involving occasional disobedience. I strongly suspect it envisions faultless, blameless "righteousness and true holiness" and is continual, uninterrupted while believers consciously choose to abide in Jesus.

Regarding your original point. Here it is: "Unless, the mind of Christ is imputed rather than imparted to us, created in us indeed, we cannot experience justification by faith as truly we do according to the Bible. Misplacing the mind of Christ, the rebirth, in imparted righteousness, i.e. sanctification - even if only by not placing it where it belongs, is false teaching, therefore, in effect: the power of the message is gone."

Are you saying "let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus" is referring to the efficacy of justification by faith?

I believe justification and sanctification are fundamentally different aspects of righteousness by faith. Ellen wrote:

"Justification means the saving of a soul from perdition, that he may obtain sanctification, and through sanctification, the life of heaven. Justification means that the conscience, purged from dead works, is placed where it can receive the blessings of sanctification. Sanctification means habitual communion with God. {7BC 908}

Tom, I do not believe neglecting to abide in Jesus is a sin. Instead, I believe it results in sinning.

Ok, so you changed your mind regarding this. Before you said it was sin. I think what Colin said is correct:



Characterizing it as unbelief was perceptive of Colin. I hadn't thought of it in those terms, but Colin is correct. It is unbelief, which is clear, when on thinks of it. And unbelief is the root of all sin.

So the idea that one cannot sin while abiding in Jesus is clearly false. One has to get from abiding to Jesus to not abiding to Jesus somehow, and there are no sinful ways to reach this change of state.

Thinking in these terms is a non-starter IMO anyway. EGW writes:



Here's the real issue. It's not so much if we're sinning or not sinning at some given moment (although grieving the Holy Spirit is a serious thing), but what are our characters like? If we were in heaven, would we long to flee from it? Would it be torture to us? Would God's character be to us a consuming fire?

This is why it's so important that we understand what God is really like. This is first and foremost. If we get this wrong, the rest doesn't matter.

From Waggoner:



Waggoner goes on to explain that there can be no higher state for a man than this, which makes sense, as what can be lacking if the righteousness of God has been imparted?

Sanctification is not a fundamentally different aspect, but is simply justification by faith applied throughout one's life; it's the process of a lifetime, and the process is justification (or pardon, which is one and the same thing).

Theology aside, "continual" basically means there are implicit gaps but no end, defined as "without end": That's English language - check any dictionary. "Continuous" is English's opposite to "continual", that's all...

The reality of growing in grace to full maturity of the "measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ" involves growing out of sinning, till we leave sinning behind. If it were uniterrupted obedience, we'd be sanctified in an instant, not just justified instantly. Theologically, therefore, perfect, continuous obedience is the end result, not the first step, linguistically in the EGW quote and truly, too, not so?


Efficacy? Maybe, but, moreover, the reality of justification by faith! Palmdale Consensus Statement, 1976 (from memory): "We believe that...'Righteous...by...faith' in the Bible...is the experience of justification." If we are reborn at all, it is the reality of justification's regeneration: becoming a new creation cannot be part of sanctification, since sanctification is but the living of the basis reality of justification. The problem is not rejecting the truth that we are reborn, but wrongly teaching it as part of sanctification or not mentioning it at all when teaching the details of righteousness by faith!

"We" - ie. church literature and training, etc, etc - focus on solely the legality of our Christ as Saviour of the world and our pardon, ie. do we truly have a Saviour, not on the reality of having the Christ as our personal Saviour, having the mind of Christ, and receiving it at & in rebirth, when we are pardoned. It is the essence of rebirth: do we understand that??? The link is never uttered, that rebirth is justification and that justification gives us power, etc. Obedience, even perfect obedience as part of salvation from sin & sinning, is at least downplayed, consequently, for where is the power for it: never actually taught in detail.

This minor confusion over what in salvation makes us a new creature makes or breaks the power of salvation in our thinking: salvivic miracles keep happening PTL, but the unity of the body in understanding the power of the gospel to be made children of God (Jn 1:12 KJV) is weak at best and generally obviously in disarray.

That's why I bring it up here, and wherever it's in context so I can, for we once knew it and nearly harnessed that power - 1888. It never quite got going again, though it was attempted. Remember: it was missing in Sabbath afternoon of last week's lesson!! Miracles keep happening, thank God, but the full experience of salvation still eludes us and that is what Jesus is waiting for - our awareness of his wishes - so he can fit us for heaven without seeing death, to come and fetch us. Amen.

Ellen spoke of Jesus' "continual obedience" in the following passage:


Obviously you're not suggesting such "continual obedience" included occasional disobedience. And yet you seem to be saying, in the context of born-again believers, "continual obedience" includes occasional disobedience. Ellen also speaks of "continual obedience" in the context of "continuous obedience" in the following passages:


I hear you saying such "obedience" includes occasional disobedience. Again, I'm having trouble making sense of it.


It sounds like you're saying sanctification is a lifelong process of gradually outgrowing sinful habits. Are you suggesting that we are reborn and justified in a sinful state, that the "new creature" is a sinful condition, and that sanctification is the process of gradually becoming less and less sinful until we finally cease sinning?


You wrote, "If we are reborn at all, it is the reality of justification's regeneration: becoming a new creation cannot be part of sanctification, since sanctification is but the living of the basis reality of justification." I hear you saying we are reborn and justified with our sinful habits, and then we begin the process of gradually outgrowing our sinful habits. However, Ellen wrote:


People are born again dead to sin, self, and Satan. They are reborn with all the fruits of the Spirit, all the righteous attributes of God's character - not one is missing. God implants them at rebirth. Sanctification, therefore, is the process of gradually maturing in the implanted fruits of the Spirit, cultivating the implanted attributes of God's character.


Sanctification is an advance from one stage of perfection to another - not from one stage of imperfection to a lesser stage of imperfection until they cease being imperfect. While abiding in Jesus born-again believers grow in grace and mature in the fruits of the Spirit from "grace to grace", from "faith to faith", and from "glory to glory" - not from greater sins to lesser sins. Eternity isn't long enough to exhaust our ability to mature more and more.

Do you see what I mean?